It is a seemingly never-ending battle to help prevent consumers from being scammed by MLM schemes. Today we look to examine another one of them: Youngevity.
I had a reader ask me about Youngevity the other day. We’ll call him Spike. He wrote:
“Have you done any research on the Youngevity products & Dr. Joel Wallach? I have been taking their Tangy Tangerine product as well as the EFA’s & Osteo FX over the last 3 months. I read your article on Lifevantage and was very impressed by the depth of your study. Just wanted to see if you have uncovered anything with Youngevity.”
I had never heard of Youngevity. However, having looked into other MLM scams, I know one of the first places to look at is the cost of the product. Why? Because MLMs often require their distributors buy product to participate in the opportunity. The artificially expensive product pays the company hefty margins, and distributors often pay the surcharge month after month as a fee for what they feel will make them money.
When I looked into the prices of Youngevity’s products, it had all the tell-tale signs of an MLM scam.
The Value of Tangy Tangerine
The first product that Spike mentioned was Tangy Tangerine, a 32 ounce drink that is highly packed with vitamins and minerals. At a cost of around $40 for a 30 day supply it is upwards of $1.25 per serving. I did a quick search on Amazon and found Optimum Nutrition Opti-Men Multivitamins (180-pack) , which was similarly highly packed with vitamins and minerals. I didn’t compare specifics of each nutrient, but it was close, more in some areas, less in others. The price on Amazon for Opti-Men is 10 cents a pill and 3 pills are in a serving, for a total of 30 cents a serving. So instead of paying $40 a month for Tangy Tangerine, you could be paying about $9-10 a month. Some of the reviews said Opti-Men was really powerful and there’s really no need to take three capsules, so you might find that you can save even more money by taking just one or two. (Side Note: The Opti-Men was the first thing I saw, I bet there’s an equivalent women’s version that is similar.)
Price per serving: $0.30 vs $1.25 in favor of Opti-Men. That’s a savings of a little more than 75%.
With Tangy Tangerine, another concern I have is with the marketing of this product. On the bottle it says “with 115 vegetables and fruits.” There are no fruit and vegetables in 500mg of powder and certainly not 115. Anyone buying into this claim should take a bottle to their doctor or medical professional (who isn’t affiliated with the MLM) and ask them if you can stop eating vegetables because you are getting 115 from Tangy Tangerine. I image they’ll find that humorous.
The Value of EPA Plus
Next up is EPA Plus. This supplement is like fish oil, but it is a blend of healthy oils like flaxseed. On the web I found it available for around $30 for 90 capsules, which is equivalent to 90 servings. That’s 30 cents a serving. So what’s the Amazon near equivalent?
It’s Omega 3-6-9 Gold. It has the mix of different sources of good fats as well. It is $13 for 180 capsules which turns out to be 7 cents a serving… and at 1200mg you are getting more product. Update: 12/30/2013: Looks like that product is currently unavailable from Amazon. However, I spent another 30 seconds coming up with a good alternative from Amazon:
NOW Foods Omega 3-6-9 1000mg. It is around $15 for 250 capsules… 6 cents per capsule. If you use Amazon’s Subscribe and Save, you can knock that down another 20% for a price of around $12.50.
Price per serving: $0.06 vs $0.30 in favor of NOW Foods Omega 3-6-9. That’s 1/5th the price or 80% off of the Youngevity price… and it gets even cheaper with Subscribe and Save.
The Value of Osteo Plus
At this point, I got a little tired of searching, so I literally took the first thing that I found on Amazon and it seemed close to the Osteo Plus blend. Specifically, I am referring to: Enzymatic Therapy OsteoPrime Plus. I had to look at another website to get the nutritional information on this product as it wasn’t nicely available on Amazon. The nutritional information shows a more diverse blend than Youngevity’s Osteo Plus, but with lower amounts of calcium and vitamin D. These are the big things you’d be looking for in a osteo complex, so it looks like a bad fit. However, keep in mind that the Opti-Men product above had additional calcium and vitamin D, plus there’s the nutrients that you get from your regular diet. That should make up any difference. OsteoPrime Plus is priced at $17 for 120 capsules. However with 4 capsules per serving that is a 30-day supply on Amazon. The price for Youngevity’s Osteo Plus online that I saw was $41 also for a 32-day supply.
Price per serving: $0.57 vs. $1.28 in favor of Enzymatic Therapy OsteoPrime Plus. This time the savings are closer to 55%.
I should mention that these don’t seem to be random products that Spike picked out. They all seem to be part of what is calls the Youngevity Healthy Start package. This $112 product has the 30-day supply of all three Youngevity products. The price of this is combination on this site and this site is $112 (as of 4/27/2012). The later makes it seem like it a value as it normally costs $159.00. At $112, that’s $3.73 a day. The price of the three items that I listed above: 94 cents a day. That’s a savings of between 67-75%… or between $689.85 and $1018.35 a year.
The typical case for MLM is that the quality of the MLM product is better than any you compare it to. Clearly if both products were identical Honda Accords you wouldn’t pay more. This puts the pressure on the MLM to prove that its product is significantly better. This is where they hire a couple of medical professionals as scientific experts, but the reality is that they are paid spokesmen. What you really need to know when it comes to vitamins is that there’s a non-profit organization that you can trust: the United States Pharmacopeia. You’ll find these products have USP Verified Dietary Supplement Mark on them. I’ve talked to a lot of pharmacists and they all say that this is the place to start and end your search for supplement quality… however many admitted to me that standards are generally so good they don’t look for it themselves and just buy the cheapest generic brand.
Absorption of Youngevity and other Vitamins
Some commenters have tried to ignore this point about the USP. When they do, they often say that cheap vitamins aren’t absorbed well or that liquid absorbs better. It’s worth noting that there are no studies on Youngevity’s products absorption. If Youngevity’s products do absorb better than its competitors and this is indeed an important factor, why is there zero analysis on it? Another thing to keep in mind is that when researchers and scientists are researching vitamins, they often don’t choose liquid sources or even state the brand of vitamins at all. Why would scientists/researchers time and again choose to go through all the trouble of conducting studies with products that are known to be poor? The answer is that they aren’t using poor products.
Consumer Reports addresses the absorption of liquid vs. solid vitamins:
“Q. My wife pays a premium for liquid vitamin and mineral supplements, which are supposedly better absorbed by the body. Are they worth the cost? —D.P., Sacramento, Calif.
A. Probably not, unless your wife has trouble swallowing solid supplements. In theory, liquid supplements should be better absorbed by the stomach since they’re already dissolved. But there has been little research to substantiate that idea. And at least some evidence has shown no meaningful difference.”
I’d add that even if she has trouble swallowing solid supplements, there’s amazing technology called pill crushing that has existed for years which solves this.
When it comes to Youngevity it is worth keeping in mind the “Can I Pay Less for Something of Similar Value?” game.
However, perhaps the biggest thing to consider is that recent research is showing that supplements may do more harm than good.
It simply doesn’t make any sense to spend more money on something that doesn’t seem to work in the first place.
Update (12/16/2013): The well-respected medical journal Annals of Internal Medicine says, “Enough is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements”.
This CNN article covered the situation well:
“The (vitamin and supplement) industry is based on anecdote, people saying ‘I take this, and it makes me feel better,’ said Dr. Edgar Miller, professor of medicine and epidemiology at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and co-author of the editorial.’ It’s perpetuated. But when you put it to the test, there’s no evidence of benefit in the long term. It can’t prevent mortality, stroke or heart attack’.”
Many of the smartest people in the world have done the research on hundreds and thousands of people and haven’t anything that helps, and even found that it could be dangerous.
“Doctor” Joel Wallach
It’s worth noting that Youngevity is associated with “Doctor” Joel Wallach. Who is he? According to Skepdic he is a veterinarian and a naturopath.
The American Cancer Society sums up what you need to know about Naturopathy: “Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published.”[Update: When I wrote the article it seemed like a safe bet that most people would consider one of the largest non-profits/charity with the goal of rid the world of cancer reputable, but I’ve received a few comments from people, probably Youngevity distributors, that are to the effect of “This guy believes the American Cancer Society, now I know I can’t trust him.”
There are numerous other reputable sources that make the point that naturopathy is quackery, not supported by the proven scientific method. There’s a list of six accredited Naturopathic schools (at the time of this update) and not one of them is associated with any university you have likely heard of. If you are one of the few odd people who are against the American Cancer Society, the point about naturopathy being quackery is well established by other reputalbe institutions.]
I love animals and my aunt is a veterinarian, but I’m not taking advice for my own health from a veterinarian and person who bases their treatments on things that haven’t been scientifically proven. There are hundreds medical doctors in a few square miles from where I live that are hundreds of times more qualified that Wallach. I’d put nutritionists as more qualified when it comes to supplementation as well.
I put “Doctor” in quote when referring to Wallach, because he’s a doctor in the sense that my wife, who has a doctorate in pharmacy (she’s a pharmacist) is a doctor. It’s a fair title for her education, but she doesn’t use the doctor title, nor does anyone else.
That skepdic article on Wallach is very illuminating as it goes into various antics that he’s done over the years. It is clear that he’s misrepresenting himself and making up lies (woman in China who lived to be 250?”)
Does Youngevity Work?
Sorry, but Youngevity joins the long list of MLM products with distributors claiming there are miracle health cures. Why do people make such claims? If you read nothing else today, read this: No, Your MLM Health Product Does Not “Work”
About Clemson’s Institute of Nutraceutical Research (INR) (Update: 3/01/2013)
A few commenters (mostly distributors) have asked about where I stand on the “Clemson study” on Youngevity products.
Reading the Clemson press release on the relationship with Youngevity is interesting. Here’s a key sentence: “[Clemson’s Institute of Nutraceutical Research] goals are to develop greater confidence in product quality, effectiveness and enhance consumer demand for quality nutraceutical products.” (emphasis on “enhance consumer demand” is my own)
You know what another word for “enhancing consumer demand” is? Marketing. In other words Clemson’s goal is to market nutraceutical products, and Youngevity pays them money for that. Ever hear of the rich person whose kid isn’t all that bright, but he got into the top college anyway? The school just happened to get a nice library donated by rich family. The parallels here are obvious.
On February 5th, 2013, I noted that the website for Clemson’s Institute of Nutraceutical Research is not functional. Some may argue that I have the wrong URL there, but if I do, Google does too from this screenshot. As of this update, March 1, 2013, the website is still not functional.
In addition to the website being down for nearly a month a Google search for Clemson Institute of Nutraceutical Research gives almost all results for Youngevity. I couldn’t find any other research it has done aside from Youngevity, which is an obvious red flag.
Lastly as Commenter Mark Harris pointed out, Clemson’s INR is not listed on Clemson’s list of over 100 institutes and research centers (as of 12/30/2013).
With the website being down for months, lack of information about other studies, and Clemson’s own failure to recognize it, is that it is hard to take the institute, and hence this research, seriously.
With that said, I feel it is important to address the Clemson “research” itself. With that in mind, let’s take a look at the press release from AL International. One of the first things that pops of the page is that they classify the work as clinical research. However, it is quite clear from the study that this is laboratory research done on test tubes and not clinical research done on humans.
When you mix something up that basic, it’s hard to have any trust in the rest of the “study.”
Much of the press release focused on product safety. While we should all be concerned about safety, vitamins are generally considered safe, so such research is not necessary. If you were to read a review of a $200,000 car saying that it got people from point A to point B without exploding, you would probably be suspicious why they are focusing on something that even cheap cars should be able to do. You don’t buy a Ferrari because it doesn’t spontaneously explode, you buy it because it supposed to deliver an advantage over other cars.
The other part of the article focused on kill cancer cells in a test tube (i.e. cell cultures). On the surface, this seems like compelling information. However, seven years ago we found acai killed cancer cells in a test tube. Not only acai, but according to this USDA article a number of foods kill cancer in test tubes. Heck, even pot slows cancer in tubes.
The important thing to take away here is that lots of things, including vitamins kill cancer in test tubes. Clemson could have saved a lot of time if they weren’t in the business of marketing Youngevity by looking at the existing research. This US News article:
Recent clinical trials, for example, suggest that supplements of single nutrients like vitamins B, C, and E and the mineral selenium do not, as once thought, prevent chronic or age-related diseases including prostate and other kinds of cancer. Some substances, like green tea and ginger, seem to have potential in preventing or helping to treat cancer, but they may also actually interfere with treatment or have other serious side effects. Meantime, countless substances that kill or slow the growth of cancer cells in a test tube have not shown that same success in human beings.
So Youngevity, and it’s various ingredients are added to the list of “countless substances that kill or slow growth of cancer cells in a test tube”, but “have not shown the same success in human beings.
Here’s a thought from a pharmacist that I know and trust: “Bleach kills cancer cells in a test tube… I’m not going to drink it any time soon.” She might have been joking with the last part, but the point is clear: We are not test tubes. Few test tubes read this article… and they aren’t concerned about cancer. Many more humans read this article and I presume they are more interested in the fact that the research does not show success for them.
Even Youngevity’s own brochure on the study comes with a disclaimer: “Clemson University only supports the statistical data and analysis provided here. Clemson University does not support, endorse, or sponsor Youngevity or any of its products. Clemson University and its researchers are not affiliated in any way
with Youngevity Essential Life Sciences.”
As commenter Vogel put it: “There you have it. According to Youngevity, Clemson’s only contribution to this misleading research was the statistical analysis of the data. They did not generate the data itself.”
However, I’d take it a step further and suggest that the brochure itself is a violation of the FDA rules for marketing supplements. The FDA has sent this this warning letter to Nature’s Pearl. It specifically states:
“When scientific publications are used commercially by the seller of a product to promote the product to consumers, such publications may become evidence of the product’s intended use. For example, under 21 CFR 101.93(g)(2)(iv)(C), a citation of a publication or reference in the labeling of a product is considered a claim about disease treatment or prevention if the citation refers to a disease use, and if, in the context of the labeling as a whole, the citation implies treatment or prevention of a disease.”
This brochure with “anti-cancer” prominently in the title and throughout the brochure appears to be evidence of the product’s intended use. The small box at the end of the brochure reading “These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease” should tell you everything you need to know about Youngevity and cancer in clear and in no uncertain terms.
Finally, the New York Times cautions against reading anything into these studies. It is a highly important article for all consumers of any health products to read and understand.
Bottom Line: Clemson duplicated research that was already well known to be irrelevant in an attempt to provide marketing for Youngevity. They didn’t do any clinical trials (tests in humans) of the product, presumably because they knew in advance it wouldn’t have given the positive result that Youngevity paid for.
When Youngevity puts out a press release saying, “The INR is a national leader in nutritional research and one of the most highly regarded organizations in the field of phytonutrients, vitamins and minerals” it is clear that it is complete bovine excrement.
Clemson Update (March 2017)
Truth in Advertising has archived the Youngevity Pamphlet on the Clemson study and has added it to it’s Youngevity Health Claims Database. They wrote a great Youngevity information article themselves that you should read.
The Daily Beast wrote about Youngevity too. Specifically they noted “questionable Clemson University research”. The article went further to get Clemson to officially comment and Clemson spokesperson Robin Denny told The Daily Beast:
“Clemson’s Institute of Nutraceutical Research did some limited preliminary laboratory research for Youngevity several years ago. No clinical trials were performed and Clemson has in no way endorsed any Youngevity product nor authorized the use of Clemson’s name or data in conjunction with any claims of efficacy. The Institute no longer exists.”
I’m not a legal expert, but it sounds to me that the spokesperson is saying that Youngevity shouldn’t have produced the pamphlet.
Youngevity and Depleted Soil
It seems that Youngevity is coaching its distributors to say that today’s soil is depleted of vitamins and minerals in order to create demand for their product. It sounds plausible until you look at little deeper.
Behind the deception there is a nugget of truth, which is what they use to sell you down this erroneous line of thinking. There is some credible information that some soil is deficient of vitamins according to this Scientific American article that cites a few sources. It is far from conclusive. That’s problem #1 with the argument, but for sake of argument we’ll pretend it is conclusive. There are a lot more problems.
A Youngevity distributor pitching this has made the bad inference that because we might be getting less than before we aren’t getting enough. If McDonalds cut the calories of its Double Quarter Pounder you probably wouldn’t be looking to add more to make up for “a deficiency.” It’s quite possible we were getting more than we needed in the past and still get enough (which I will cover in a minute). That’s problem #2.
Next, there’s sufficient research that supplements are a waste of money. That’s analysis of dozens of different studies on hundreds of thousands of people. Conspiracy theorists will say that article is biased or created by a “sickness industry”, but these people have no answer for why the same doctors and scientists put their loved through chemotherapy if vitamins and minerals actually worked. Getting back to the article, the conclusion was:
“The large body of accumulated evidence has important public health and clinical implications. Evidence is sufficient to advise against routine supplementation, and we should translate null and negative findings into action. The message is simple: Most supplements do not prevent chronic disease or death, their use is not justified, and they should be avoided. This message is especially true for the general population with no clear evidence of micronutrient deficiencies, who represent most supplement users in the United States and in other countries.… we believe that the case is closed— supplementing the diet of well-nourished adults with (most) mineral or vitamin supplements has no clear benefit and might even be harmful.“
I’ve added emphasis to three important parts. Supplements are not advised… problem #3. There is no evidence of micronutrient deficiencies in the United States and in other countries. This supports the point I made above in problem #2… we get enough. In fact, the people who are looking into Youngevity are probably those who are health-conscious and thus more likely to have a healthy diet that is devoid of deficiencies.
The final point the article makes is that supplements might even be harmful. That’s problem #4. You not only don’t appear to be helping yourself, but you might even be hurting yourself.
I’ve heard people try to discount that article and the science. They do everything can (like the “sickness industry” I mentioned above). I can’t understand how these people believe in some science and not others. They’ll take the whole thing about depleted soil as a given even though there’s far less analysis of that and throw out all the science about vitamins and minerals not being helpful. It’s as if they want to believe in addition, but not multiplication. It simply doesn’t make any sense to pick and choose arbitrarily.
Now let’s get to problem #5. Back in the Scientific American article they presented a solution to the depleted soil problem. It wasn’t supplements. “… foregoing pesticides and fertilizers in favor of organic growing methods is good for the soil, the produce and its consumers. Those who want to get the most nutritious fruits and vegetables should buy regularly from local organic farmers.”
And then there is problem #6 to this argument. It doesn’t give anyone a reason to buy Youngevity’s overpriced supplements (using the above analysis).
Vogel brings up another 7 more problems with depleted soil in this comment. Specifically:
- the main study cited, “did not look at any measurements of nutrient levels in soil”
- “the authors did not conclude that that the apparent decline in nutrient levels was attributable to soil depletion… that a difference in the strains being cultivated, not soil depletion, was the probable cause of the apparent decline in nutrient levels”
- “Some of the nutrients that apparently declined were only marginally lower, which is not likely to be clinically relevant”
- an apple from the 1950s might have higher levels of alar and DDT and other banned pesticides
- improvements in transportation allow for better access to a variety of fruits than in the 1950s.
- the diet in the 1950s was not very good (“potatoes and iceberg lettuce” cited), there is much more nutritional awareness today.
- “… diseases due to dietary nutritional deficiencies (like scurvy, rickets, beri beri, pellagra, etc.) were not uncommon in the 50s but have now been virtually eradicated in the U.S. due to improvements in standard of living and diet.”
About Youngevity’s Parent Company
One thing that came out of the Clemson research that I initially overlooked (I felt it was more important to focus on the product), is that the company is owned by AL International, a publicly traded company that is a penny stock. On January 25th, when the Clemson “research” press release came out, the stock was trading at 16.5 cents a share (I didn’t realize the stock market took ha’pennies). The total value of the company was 65 million dollars, less than some athletes sign for over 2-3 years. Stock prices vary and after the Clemson marketing, Youngevity got the desired result, a significant bump in stock price as penny stocks can do at times. (Note: they can drop just as quickly and are not very good investments.)
I tried to give a fair review to Youngevity based on its products in general, but as I’ve found in every MLM that I’ve looked at, the organization usually is centered around a few charlatans.
Update: I was pointed towards this great first person account with Youngevity. It is extremely long and detailed, but well worth your time if you are considering buying these products or getting into the business. The author actually became a nutritionist because Youngevity’s Wallach was slandering doctors making them seem untrustworthy all why claiming that their “glacial milk” was the answer. Here are some great quotes:
“So rather than just believing the bunch of facts and figures that were thrown at me by my lecturers, I approached the claims that Wallach had made by asking ‘where is the evidence?’ What I discovered was that Wallach’s claims were not only inaccurate but they were nothing more than very clever lies, designed to lull vulnerable people into a false sense of security in order to relieve them of their money.”
“I had also come across a handful of people from the church who had been approached by AL distributors claiming to cure them of their health conditions, many of them who had received no benefit but were too shy or ashamed to let their story be heard. Funnily enough, it was only those who for whatever reason, believed that they had been cured, whose testimonials were given at meetings and printed on the plethora of AL’s advertising material.”
“… I should simply stand up and ask Wallach why he was misleading people and to question him in front of the audience (of several hundred people) and the cameras. I did of course, which resulted in my swift removal (including being physically dragged out and thrown down a flight of stairs)…”
The story is truly amazing and should make it very clear that it best to avoid Youngevity and its marketing tactics that aren’t properly supported by any real evidence.
LMBO!!!! You guys are quite a trip. Sorry I thought you were Vogel LazyMan. You guys have like the same writing voice. And I didn’t know I was in English class and should care about my format. See this is just an informal internet conversation that isn’t graded so idk why I would care to make it an academic or professional work. I also didn’t know I was in a lab, lol… I’m simply sharing my experience and opinion about the product mentioned in the article. It doesn’t have to be formal or documented, it’s not that serious and it’s not my job, it’s just a comment. I just thought I’d stand up for this product because I actually use it and know first hand unlike you. And yeah, I’m Dr. Wallach, lol.. because I have time to waste here lol… If I was, I would have provided the documentation and research to back up my product by now lol… Dr. Wallach doesn’t make money off the product anyway. He doesn’t need it. And he’s not just a vet, or soil expert, he’s an MD too. Not that I respect MDs at all anyway. They’re usually quite narrow-minded, arrogant and think they know it all when they don’t and very unhelpful. They’re usually quite ignorant. I use to want to be one since I was 5yrs old, but I changed my mind when I saw how big pharma is just big business and that there’s barely any cures just a bunch of pills that you take the rest of your life to help “manage” your symptoms with tons of side effects. It’s stupid. I don’t use meds or see doctors for anything! Watching what medicine was able to do for my parents over the last couple decades shows me how worthless and deceptive western medicine is. I wouldn’t want to be apart off the deception that is the medical field. I want to be a naturopathic doctor like Wallach if anything.
Vogel, you’re ridiculous… I’m not exploiting anything nor is me commenting on a freaking article illegal. Why don’t you sue me, lol… And this isn’t a court case, it’s a freaking comment on a stupid article!! I can say whatever I want. It’s called freedom of speech. It’s not like I’m a company or a professional in healthcare field making false statements. Plus, everything I said was honest. You think you know so much, why don’t you report me and charge me for my crimes! lol.. You guys just make yourselves look foolish with how you handle this.
Giora said: “You remind me some arrogance, above the “normal” people from the 30s, sorry I am a jew.”
Huh? Was that supposed to be a veiled reference to the Nazis? If so, we can add violating Godwin’s Law to the ever growing list of your idiotic contributions to this discussion thus far.
Giora said: “You are obviously a big believer of words, smart words, regardless if it connects at all to the real world. Reminds me those long hours of impotence of academical talks that looks smart but were full of bombastic empty words.”
Huh? What’s the alternative? Being a believer in stupid words? There’s nothing wrong with my words or their connection to the real world. Your mangled word salad, on the other hand, is barely comprehensible. The blithe irony of your comment is astounding.
Giora said: “Gabriela’s mother blood pressure. You have a choice to believe her or not, however with your spinning “publishing it here” you are fully aware about the health claim policy that the FDA, with the help of A.M.A created.”
The logical default choice is to not believe the claim about Gabriela’s mother’s blood pressure, since there isn’t one iota of evidence to back it up and ample reason for suspicion that it’s false or otherwise unreliable. The alternative would be to adopt the position that everything that’s possible, no matter how unlikely, is true until proven otherwise, which would be antithetical to the principles of science and logic. And let’s nip your FDA/AMA conspiracy theory in the bud, because it’s irrelevant. What you refer to as “heath claim policy” is in fact US law. It’s not a question of how the law came to pass or whether or not it’s just; the issue is simply that you and the company are obligated to abide by it or face the consequences, which can include fines, product seizures, forfeiture of assets, and closure. Furthermore, negative media attention to the illegal claims being used by Youngevity and its distributors could harm the financial stake of the shareholders; thus it’s wrong on many levels to flagrantly violate the law. Doing so doesn’t make you a noble health rebel or the Che Cuvera of snakeoil pyramid schemes. It just means you’re a reckless and irresponsible miscreant.
Giora said: “Your argument about relationship( or in your words ” causal relationship”) youngevity or food (Tang tangerine has 115 vegetables and fruits and 60 minerals in it) and health is either naive/juvenile/ignorant or just stupid.”
It wasn’t an argument; it was a simple straightforward question, which you have thus far avoided answering. What I said was the following:
“Are you saying that there is a causal relationship between the use of Youngevity products and the alleged reversal of hypertension that, according to a second-hand account, was experienced by Gabriella’s mother? If you are saying that there is, then you are illegally marketing the products; if your answer is no, then say so clearly and unambiguously. It’s black or it’s white.”
The question wasn’t “naive/juvenile/ignorant or just stupid,” but your threadbare response sure was.
Giora said: “This is HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL and the publication of the NIH. So are you saying that Harvard Medical school and the NIH are scammer too? Get life birdy.”
No, but I would say that it’s incredibly foolish of you to try to defend Youngevity products by invoking a false association with Harvard and the NIH and then taking refuge behind the names of those institutions as though they support your blindingly stupid inarticulate arguments.
Giora said: “Enough said.”
Does that mean you’ve finally tired of posting this off topic drivel and making a fool of yourself? I hope so for your sake.
Lazy Man says
I think Godwin’s Law is in full effect. It makes sense now with him calling you an ugly German bird and then saying he’s a Jewish person from the 30’s. Now I get why he’s trying to play that game.
LOL! Hey Vogel, why don’t you sue me for my illegal comments on this article, lol…
LazyMan, This isn’t an English class so why the hell would I care about format in my comment?? It’s a freaking convo on the internet. It’s not a graded or professional paper so I why the heck should I care or waste my time on formal writing technique? As long as I’m understood that’s all that matters. It’s merely a comment on a stupid article, seriously.
And Vogel, same to you… Your expectations are absurd. No wonder I thought LazyMan was you, you’re both so ridiculous I thought you guys were the same person, lol..
Both: This isn’t a court room guys, nor is this a lab, lol.. I’m just a regular person sharing my opinion that came from first hand experience.. That’s all.. I’m not going to make a damn project out of it I wasted enough time. I got freaking mid-terms and a GPA to maintain. Maybe you guys should get a life too and stop wasting people’s time with your nonsense… Goodbye :)
P.S. I was looking at the brochure that came with my order and PollenBurst is one of the most thoroughly researched health supplement/energy drink in the world today and is backed by numerous double-blind, placebo controlled studies, so there goes your false accusations. You can see the science at http://www.burstscience.com And one more thing, Dr Wallach doesn’t make money off of Youngevity just so people can know that not why he invented the product. He’s rich anyway.
Lazy Man says
Everyone else managed to use paragraphs, even people who could barely string a couple of sentences together. If you want people to read your writing, it helps to make it presentable. I can only imagine how you would have slammed me if my article was one long paragraph.
Wallach is not an MD like you claimed in an earlier comment. I don’t see him as a soil expert either. That hasn’t been mentioned in the previous 700 comments. Did he go to soil school or what is this claim based on. And yes, he is a vet, but since he seems to be incompetent or full of lies it isn’t worth listening to him.
You can put your life and faith in the FDA research and how they control everything. And that they will of course publish reports how natural supplements do nothing because they can’t control them. It all down to the money. They want the natural industry to not make the money that they make without being apart of the deal. But you need to be concerned about what they are NOT telling you. Chicken Meat Sold in America Contains Cancer-Causing Arsenic. Then of course they have a treatment plan to cure the cancer they caused in the first place.
Lazy Man says
Betty, are you talking about how the FDA banned 3 arsenic drugs used in poultry feeds? Seems like a good thing to me. Imagine if there were no FDA to ban it. Who knows what would be in your chicken feed?!?!
Yes you reminds me Mr. Goebbels spinning covered with high bombastic wording by saying nothing actual. The Danish call it “spin Doctor”.
Put all the blah blah and spinning aside how do you and lazy explain the following:
1. Gabriella Mother reducing blood pressure?
2. Seth after 13 years on medication for acid reflux 4 days on Youngevity no acid and now 2 months later no acid no side effects and lost 20lbs.
3, Juan S. (this is a new one for you) 20 years suffer from Migraine headaches, on medication, MD’s several tests had no idea what he has. While on medication he suffers 1-2 MH a week. He is now 3 weeks on a very basic Youngevity protocol and since 3 weeks he had not even once any MH. And yes he decided to buy youngevity products on an Auto shipping.
4. Rob 60 years of age Arthritis pain including some procedures in the past with no help having a continues pain. After 1 month on 90 for life no pain, he is now on his third months.
5. Kashima no energy sharp pain in her knee, 2 weeks on 90 for life great energy pain in the knee reduced a big deal she order her 90 for life for the second month.
And I could bring many more.
So Birdy and lazy, put all the rhetoric about science, wallach records, MLM your Blah blah blah aside and just answer it.
If you say that Gabriella Myself Seth Juan, Rob , Khasima, etc. are all engaged in Lie (definition “A lie is an intentionally false statement to a person or group made by another person or group who knows it is not wholly the truth”) you then need to explain why all those people continue buying products that do nothing for them. Of course you can also say that I am lie when I say that they continue buying…This I can bring here to prove so this is obviously not a good strategy.
You may say that it is all a placebo effect. Intelectually this argument is poor because most of them did take medications for long time and the placebo effects supposes to kick in on medications as well.
So let see what you have to say. Not spin about science, theories, FDA etc. This are real people that are spending real hard earned money on supplements, that after years on MD treatment, that just “managed their diseases” and did not relieved them from their suffering, get now real return on their investment and more important will bring them their health back.
No spinning please just a strait talk
Lazy Man says
Please give documentation than any of what you claim actually happened. That’s step 1.
Step 2 is to read the article here: http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/no-your-mlm-health-product-does-not-work/. It IS the explanation that you are asking for. I’m not going to cut and paste the article here, but I could and we’d be done.
Still waiting for you give us the Youngevity press releases on their products helping any of these people.
Betty said: “You can put your life and faith in the FDA research and how they control everything. And that they will of course publish reports how natural supplements do nothing because they can’t control them.”
The FDA does not (a) conduct medical research on drugs and supplements; nor (b) “publish reports how natural supplements do nothing”. The FDA is a regulatory agency; it is not a medical research organization nor is it a medical research publisher. Thus, the core of your argument has no basis in fact.
Betty said: “It all down to the money. They want the natural industry to not make the money that they make without being apart of the deal.”
Yes, it all does come down to money; that’s the only thing that snakeoil pyramid schemes like Youngevity care about, no matter what it means for their victims. The FDA has made no effort to impede the overall profitability of the supplement industry; and the industry thus far has been both very loosely regulated and enormously lucrative for supplement companies. The FDA has also made no effort “to be part of the deal” or to profit from MLM scams. The FDA’s mandate is set in stone under U.S. law (i.e., US Code of Federal Regulations, US Food and Drug Act, and in the case of supplements, the Dietary Supplement Health & Education Act). They can’t just go unilaterally changing it willy-nilly. It would require an act of congress.
Lazy Man says
Betty, I see your comments about genetically modified foods and GMOs. That’s not the topic the discussion and I’m not going to publish a thousand words of something unrelated to Youngevity.
On the bright side, I’ve saved you from being embarrassed for your attack of Neil Degrasse Tyson. You didn’t address the video I pointed to at all or critique it in any way. And any attack on Neil Degrasse Tyson doesn’t negate the points he makes.
Try debunking arguments, not people, and stay on topic (Youngevity) and you’ll get your comment published. Thanks.
I know you won’t because it proves your belief in that fraud Neil deGrasse Tyson is misguided to say the least. And it deeply questions you belief that we can get nutrients from food. Of course you won’t because anytime in this VERY TOPIC you want to you bring up Neil DeGrasse Tyson to confirm what you’re saying. But he is a fraud and his beliefs are questions then you have nothing to stand on.
Lazy Man says
You didn’t provide any proof about Tyson being a fraud or misguided. You simply said he is a joke. You then went on rant about GMOs. Saying someone is a fraud doesn’t make it so.
I decided to try to figure out if there’s some connection between your two rants, and the only thing I can see is this video of NDT about GMOs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ecT2CaL7NA). And he’s exactly right that we’ve been genetically modifying food for thousands of years through artificial selection.
Again this isn’t a discussion of GMOs. If you don’t want GMOs eat organic, it’s your choice. It’s certainly better than wasting your money on supplements that may be harmful.
By the way, GMOs are a key tool to ending world hunger and are actually more nutritious.
Andrew English says
Is Dr. Joel Wallach blowing smoke?
There is a new book out:
Dr. Joel D Wallach, BS,DVM,ND / Dr. Ma Lan, MD,MS,Lac / Gerhard N. Schrauzer, PhD,MS,FACN,CNS
Dr. Jeffrey S. Blend PHD
These people have a much higher education and likely may more money in month than you make in a year, I think you are the one blow smoke here.
Still yet you act out like the mentally unable person you are.
Andrew English says
1:05:10 is an interview taken by Dr. Glidden with Dr. Joel Wallach.
A man who clearly has more experience on the subject of nutrient than you do, and isn’t mentally unstable like yourself deserves all kinds of recognition.
Lazy Man says
Why don’t you find some unbiased sources. Listening to Glidden and Wallach is like listening to a McDonalds’ commercial. And let’s re-emphasize that neither are medical doctors. The science community has shown Wallach is a quack with obviously wrong information. Glidden is so irrelevant, no one talks about him at all. Plus I showed above that he’s seriously mistaken about pyramid schemes, a topic he should know a lot about if he’s going to pitch Youngevity.
I noticed that you are playing the the appeal to authority logical fallacy instead of actually debunking the arguments.
I would say that these two wannabe doctors are the mentally unstable people out there. Anyone listening to their commercial to buy their products should also look into some mental help.
I have tried twice to post here Seth story. Once yesterday and the second time today….
Lazy are you trying to hide something from your followers? Interesting.
Lazy Man says
I haven’t been able to verify the accuracy of the Seth story from the information you’ve provided. Myths do not move the discussion forward. The Tyson talk about human perception being flawed and such unmeasured testimonials carries no scientific weight covers this in detail.
Please come back with something useful rather than wasting my and my reader’s time.
Lazy, are you scared? implying Censorship?
If you are so convinced that Seth story and youngevity products are a bunch of garbage, what are you afraid of? If it is just a big lie let your followers find out it. . and it will prove your point.
Post the story as it is and I will post Seth Phone # and whoever here wants to find out the truth is welcomed to call Seth (I will need to ask his permission first).
Got cold feet? play it like a man not like a pussy.
Yep your right he has put Tyson on here as an authority that we don’t need supplements go back thru the thread. Now he’s not a source, he’s keeping it off so nobody can challenge lazy’s belief that food is all we need.
Lazy Man says
If I don’t post your comments it’s not censorship. This blog is my digital home and I invite you to leave comments as long as you are going to be 1) respectful to me and 2) follow simple common sense, logic, and avoid logical fallacies 3) stay on topic. (There may be more, but those are 3 off the topic of my head.) You are a guest and not entitled to any kind of freedom of speech in this space. If you don’t like it, start your own blog. These rules are in place to help move the discussion in a positive direction.
It is already well-established that MLMers are full of fanciful tales about the products. It was covered 6 years ago by Dr. Johnny Bowden on Huffington Post. None of these tales has ever been shown to be true. And while Seth may make the claim and even believe the claim, there are others who made the claim the world was going to end a few years ago. It didn’t happen.
Also, any story that implies Youngevity did anything for him is failing the correlation does not imply causation principle.
There is no proof to be had by one person’s story because it wasn’t conducted in a scientific way. We can’t measure it’s accuracy. Thus the story itself doesn’t matter. And if the story doesn’t matter, why waste our time on it? Youngevity doesn’t seem to believe themselves, because you haven’t been able to find their press release touting how effective the product was for Seth. If Youngevity doesn’t believe it, then I’m certainly not going to believe it. If you get them to release a statement, then we can open up the topic here for discussion.
People can challenge that we need more than food. I just require that you use real science… not a dog walker named Seth.
Betty, I didn’t put Tyson as an authority of supplements at all. I put Tyson on here as an authority on how science is conducted. You know the kind of thing done in labs with measurements, data and all that stuff. That’s what Tyson was saying in the video I posted (here it is again). Tyson also made the point that one person telling a story is the worst possible piece of science available. Any and every scientist in the world knows this is true. It’s not even up for debate. This falls into the common sense and logic bucket. It seems like you agree, because you don’t attempt to argue it in any way, but instead try to say that Tyson isn’t reputable due to comments he made elsewhere. (And yet those comments are scientifically proven as well.)
These kind of Ad Hominem and Strawman fallacies are not acceptable here. They aren’t logical and your attempt to confuse readers is not appreciated.
Side Note: Giora, please stop signing your name after your comments. There’s a name box at the top. You don’t need to do it twice.
Testimonials are not data. They never have been, they never will be.
Your insistence on trying to use testimonials in the place of actual data is exactly the point that Lazy Man and a host of others have been stating in this entire thread.
None of your claims that youngevity ‘works’ have any value unless you can back them with FACTS. Not opinions. Not testimonials. Not anecdotes. Not random stories about scam victims named Seth.
Only documented, verified, peer reviewed data from properly run studies will suffice. Produce those facts…that data…and every one of us would jump on board the ‘Youngevity Works’ train along with you.
Except you won’t do that because those studies don’t exist. They won’t ever exist because those studies would show what we already know. Youngevity doesn’t ‘work’ for anything, despite your many, many, many illegal claims to the contrary.
It does appear possible however, depending on where you purchased it, that taking Youngevity will cause you to contract parasitic Giora.
Andrew Englsih said: “Is Dr. Joel Wallach blowing smoke? There is a new book out: EPIGENETICS…These people have a much higher education and likely may more money in month than you make in a year.”
It’s hard to imagine anyone less qualified than Wallach to write a book about epigenetics. He has absolutely no credentials, qualifications, or research experience in the field of epigenetics. The book isn’t even published by a reputable academic publisher; it’s published by SelectBooks, a small obscure independent company that publishes new age schlock. No academic in the field of epigenetics will ever read Wallach’s worthless paperback.
Contrary to that caim you made, blindly, I have more education than any of the authors of that trashy paperbook, and how much money they make is both (a) unknown and (b) irrelevant to this discussion. You’ve established your intellectual dishonesty by making such a fallacious claim.
Giora Zeevy said: “Lazy, are you scared? implying Censorship? If you are so convinced that Seth story and Youngevity products are a bunch of garbage, what are you afraid of? If it is just a big lie let your followers find out it. . and it will prove your point. Post the story as it is and I will post Seth Phone # and whoever here wants to find out the truth is welcomed to call Seth (I will need to ask his permission first). Got cold feet? play it like a man not like a pussy.”
Not scared; bored is more like it. Given that there’s a complete absence of evidence to support that Youngevity products do anything at all, what do you expect anyone to learn from an anonymous testimonial or by calling up some stranger (presumably a Youngevity distributor) whose likely response will be to claim that he was magically cured of something by Tangy Tangerine (or one of the company’s other overpriced shitty products)?
Do you think you make a good case for your complaint when you call the host a pussy? I’d pull the plug on you for that alone; aside from the countless pages of incoherent off-topic BS you’ve posted here. The logical move would be to have Youngevity post the “evidence” you speak of on their website, but you know they won’t because it’s BS and constitutes illegal advertising. So why don’t you and Seth go launch your own website and then we can drop by there for a good laugh instead of having to endure your silly hostile rants here.
Birdy Silo Lazy all talk science. You make me lough.
The science of the time believed that the world was flat. They were wrong.
go to our time: (all from the WSJ)
The science that you blindly follow so much resulted in statin drugs, fat free diet, Saturated fat is bad for you and cholesterol is the people enemy, based on a fraud science.
So to our point. Your science that dictate the habits of eating, which was approved and recommended by all the medical establishment (yes the MD’s one) not only was based on fraud science but it seems that it created most of the chronic diseases that the MD’s can not provide any cure. And you talk to me about science.
So don’t be surprised that Seth and Juan and Hillary and Rob and so many more , and 50 years from now it will be the golden standard medicine, lough when you bring the science that could not help them. They lough because they are diseases free with help of nature, Medical nutrition that deliver.
Lazy as I told you a year ago your science worship is a religious one.
And by the way during those years of fraud science Dr. Wallach did publish several papers supporting the saturated fat, cholesterol as a good stuff etc. Some of his friend from Harvard called him quack. Most of them died from heart attacks in a young age.
Lazy Man says
I’m not sure what “lough” is, but perhaps you shouldn’t do it.
I think you misunderstand what science is. It takes a hypothesis and tests it to determine the truth.
There was no science that showed the world was flat. People said, “It looks flat. It must be flat.” It’s a lot like the case of Seth that you write about. There was no science to explain why people are making that conclusion. They just went by their flawed perception. It was untested. It was science that tested whether the world was flat and discovered, “Hey the world is round.”
You bring up the WSJ article, but the very article brings gives you the answers: “The new study’s conclusion shouldn’t surprise anyone familiar with modern nutritional science, however. The fact is, there has never been solid evidence for the idea that these fats cause disease. We only believe this to be the case because nutrition policy has been derailed over the past half-century by a mixture of personal ambition, bad science, politics and bias.”
1. One study’s conclusion isn’t necessarily more valid than the others before it that came to the opposite conclusion. More science needs to be conducted. Science is an ongoing process… hypothesizes are made and tested and over time, we move forward. This is a primary reason why our lifespan has gotten longer over the years.
2. There is such a thing as bad science. It’s conducted by people and people are make mistakes. It doesn’t mean that science itself is bad… is the people behind it.
3. The mixture of mixture of personal ambition, politics, and bias is a troublesome one, but this is all related humans, not science. In fact, most of the arguments you make about Youngevity rely on this mixture of qualities. Your reasons for not trusting science are actually better reasons for not trusting Wallach and Youngevity.
So in the end, science was not to blame. It’s not like test tubes and bunsen burners got together to thwart mankind. It’s human emotion (personal ambition, bias) and human process (politics) that you want to point your sword at. Actually, this article supports science as it shows how the new study attempts to correct those human flaws.
This is why we are looking for science for Youngevity and its products.
Please show that Wallach had any friends at Harvard. And if these friends are calling him quacks, we should trust their opinion because they would know him and the science best. I’d like the data on the “most of them died from heart attacks in a young age”, it would be rarity for even the most unhealthy people to have that happen. A better conclusion to make based on what could limited data (or even a false accusation) is that maybe something is in the water at Harvard.
But don’t let reasonable explanations and logic get in the way of Wallach just saying unverified shit to try put his name in the sentence with the bright minds at Harvard.
Ah the irony! Were it not for science, Giora would have to air his baseless opinions by carrier pigeon, or go to the town square and yell his message to the people (in fact I saw a disheveled homeless guy doing this just the other day — could have been Giora) instead of using the internet from the convenience of his laptop or iPhone.
Allow me to thank science on behalf of Giora, who’s too much of an ingrate to admit where his microchip came from.
Lisa Thibodeau says
Bottom line is: No matter how good a product/company truly is, there will always be disclaimers and people like you who write about them and make them look bad. How do we know YOU are legitimate? I think the whole world is about money. And just because people are making millions off Youngevity, doesn’t mean it’s not a quality product. I personally know several people who have had amazing results from this product. Of course, Dr. Wallach is making money. He’s not going to give it away for free!
Lazy Man says
Lisa, the important thing is to look at what the disclaimers are saying and what the people are writing and the evidence behind what they are writing.
If I were to write that rape is bad, you wouldn’t try to defend rape by saying, “People write things to make rape look bad. How do we know YOU are legitimate?” You would defend the product/company/action based on its own merits or faults.
I’ve put together a very thorough analysis of Youngevity. If you can find fault in the analysis, please do. Give me a valid logical argument and we can have a fruitful discussion. If you are going to use the same arguments that could defend rape, you are clearly confused.
I don’t think anyone is making millions off of Youngevity. As a publicly traded company they disclosed their profits and even Youngevity isn’t making millions on Youngevity.
I have no problem with Mr. Wallach making money. I only have a problem with the company doing it via fraudulent marketing and victimizing innocent consumers.
Lisa Thibodeau says
First of all, rape cannot be compared to health supplements. I used to work for an advertising/marketing firm and it made me sick to see how consumers would buy into their schemes based on the words, testimonials and glitter, but just because the marketing side is a flop, doesn’t mean the product is not good quality. No one can dispute the fact that I personally know someone who was able to quit taking all his prescription medication after giving Youngevity a shot. He is alive and VERY well, after being told by the doctors that NOTHING would ever help him. Youngevity helped him, so I am clearly not confused over that. And can you please tell me what research you have done to prove that Youngevity is not quality supplements? Do you know where this product is derived from? Do you know how healthy the soil is? If you have hardcore proof that this is just empty calories, then please let me know. I personally have had the healthy pack tested by some extremely credible practitioners who work in complimentary medicine and they all tested well. Doctors/Naturopaths, etc… Doesn’t matter what you are. The medical material being taught in Canada is severely outdated. My friend who is an MD received medical training in Hong Kong before going to Med School in the Carribean. When he took the course in Saba, that’s when he realized how flawed our medical system is here in North America. Basically there is an argument for every argument. The only people who truly win are those who take charge of their own health and not put it solely into the hands of doctors who think they know best. They don’t know best. Thousands of people die every year because of medical malpractice and no one ever raises an eyebrow. Unfortunately my father was one of them. My dad died of lung cancer. The tumor in his lung was pressing on a nerve that caused pain in his shoulder. He was told three times by his doctor that it was probably just a pulled muscle even though he couldn’t think of any incident that would have caused it. Finally he got a second opinion and it was not a pulled muscle at all, but rather the tumor that caused the pain in his shoulder.
Lazy Man says
Lisa Thibodeau said, “First of all, rape cannot be compared to health supplements.”
Of course not, no one compared the two. Rape was used as a device to illustrate how terrible your argument was. If your argument can be used to support rape, you have failed.
If you try to cover up that failure with a comment that there was a comparison made of rape to health supplements, you have exponentially compounded your failure.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “I used to work for an advertising/marketing firm and it made me sick to see how consumers would buy into their schemes based on the words, testimonials and glitter, but just because the marketing side is a flop, doesn’t mean the product is not good quality.”
I agree completely. In fact, many, many people were fans of Palm’s webOS smartphone (myself included as I’ve shown in many articles here). The marketing was a flop and Apple’s iPhone was better and won. Yes, neither product was bad. However, as the article pointed out, the gold standard of quality of health supplements is from an independent, non-profit, third party – USP (United States Pharmacopeia).
So quality of supplements is not a question… just get the cheapest ones that are USP Verified.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “No one can dispute the fact that I personally know someone who was able to quit taking all his prescription medication after giving Youngevity a shot. He is alive and VERY well, after being told by the doctors that NOTHING would ever help him. Youngevity helped him, so I am clearly not confused over that.”
By your own logic, no one can dispute that I have a talking unicorn in my garage. It’s not about disputing things, it is about scientifically validating them. My talking unicorn has helped me and clearly I’m not confused about it (using your own arguments).
Lisa Thibodeau said, “And can you please tell me what research you have done to prove that Youngevity is not quality supplements? Do you know where this product is derived from? Do you know how healthy the soil is? If you have hardcore proof that this is just empty calories, then please let me know. I personally have had the healthy pack tested by some extremely credible practitioners who work in complimentary medicine and they all tested well.”
Vitamins and minerals don’t have calories, so like any multivitamin, the empty calorie argument is ridciulous.
And can you tell me that Youngevity has proved that its quality is better than the nationally recognized independent third-party, non-profit USP as mentioned above?
Who cares about where the product is derived from or the soil of it, if it isn’t tested? Talk is cheap… shut up and walk the walk with the FDA.
And if you had any Youngevity products tested, please give us the details. Don’t just claim it, give us the credible doctors and the very specific results.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “Doctors/Naturopaths, etc… Doesn’t matter what you are.”
Doctors and Naturopaths are very different. It’s like equating a first grader (naturopaths) to a college graduate (medical school doctor). You could call them both students, but it wouldn’t be accurate marketing… just like the marketing you mentioned hating above.
Lisa Thibodeau said, ” The medical material being taught in Canada is severely outdated. My friend who is an MD received medical training in Hong Kong before going to Med School in the Carribean. When he took the course in Saba, that’s when he realized how flawed our medical system is here in North America. Basically there is an argument for every argument. The only people who truly win are those who take charge of their own health and not put it solely into the hands of doctors who think they know best. They don’t know best. Thousands of people die every year because of medical malpractice and no one ever raises an eyebrow. Unfortunately my father was one of them. My dad died of lung cancer. The tumor in his lung was pressing on a nerve that caused pain in his shoulder. He was told three times by his doctor that it was probably just a pulled muscle even though he couldn’t think of any incident that would have caused it. Finally he got a second opinion and it was not a pulled muscle at all, but rather the tumor that caused the pain in his shoulder.”
This was well-covered in your previous comment. It doesn’t seem like you have anything new to add.
Lisa Thibodeau says
Personally I would rather take Dr. Wallach’s products any day over some chemical drug from the most greedy industry of all… BIG PHARMA! Western Medicine needs a complete overhaul. The pharmaceutical is a multi-billion dollar industry who only makes people sicker! A CBC reporter once did a paper trail on a cancer research initiate to find a cure for breast cancer. What she found out is disgusting! Not one cent of that money went into finding a cure, but Big Pharma certainly benefited. All the money went into MORE drugs to “manage” the disease rather than “CURE” anything. I believe Dr. Wallach is right about many things when he talks about missing minerals in our soil which is indisputable. Western doctors and big pharma work together to keep the sick system going so they can continue to line their pockets. There is no such thing as “preventive care” in North America. Doctors ONLY make their money when we are sick!!!! I also know someone personally whose health made a huge come-back after going on Youngevity products for a year. His doctor told him he would never get better, that he would have to go on kidney dialysis and that NOTHING could be done to help him. WRONG!! Ignorant and arrogant doctors who try to play God. Shame on them, and good for my friend who didn’t give his power away to the BS! He never did have to go on kidney dialysis and no longer is on ANY pharmaceutical medication. The only difference between a doctor and a politician is that doctors have no choice but to believe the limited scope of information that is offered in Med School. A good friend of mine graduated from Med School in the Carribean after living in Hong Kong for 15 years. He challenged his med professors many times because of the misleading information that was being taught in class. A lot of doctors DO know far more information beyond anything they’re taught in Med School, but if they tell their patients any of the “REAL GOOD STUFF”, they will be fired. Better to shut everyone up at the expense of our health! Shame on the government. Shame on the food industry. Shame on the FDA. Shame on the doctors. All those departments I just mentioned make up the most toxic soup ever!!!!
Lazy Man says
Lisa Thibodeau said, “Personally I would rather take Dr. Wallach’s products any day over some chemical drug from the most greedy industry of all… BIG PHARMA! Western Medicine needs a complete overhaul. The pharmaceutical is a multi-billion dollar industry who only makes people sicker!”
You are welcome to your own beliefs, but you might as well adopt other beliefs like, “The world is flat” and “I can safely jump off of a bridge.” When you disregard all science and logic in your beliefs, you submit yourself to unnecessary risk that may lead to death.
The science and logic is squarely with pharmaceuticals since they need to be extensively proved to be safe and effective. When a drug is shown to be a safety risk, the FDA shuts it down. Conversely, Big Supplement is a multi-billion dollar industry that hasn’t proven their products (as a whole) to be any more effective than toast. The safety of Big Supplement products are in question because they are not tested. The products can all kind of dangerous chemicals in it, and the consumer has no way of knowing.
Lisa Thibodeau said, ” A CBC reporter once did a paper trail on a cancer research initiate to find a cure for breast cancer. What she found out is disgusting! Not one cent of that money went into finding a cure, but Big Pharma certainly benefited. All the money went into MORE drugs to ‘manage’ the disease rather than ‘CURE’ anything.”
What a scandal! They put money into helping make people’s lives better by managing a disease. How dare they! Oh they didn’t cure cancer. It’s extremely difficult to cure cancer. If you can do it, then go for it, but be prepared to give the scientific evidence and prove it. It’s almost equivalent to having a goal of inhabiting another planet. It’s extremely difficult. Let’s celebrate the accomplishments of our space programs rather than slight them for not accomplishing an extremely impossible task.
At a minimum, let’s ask which industry is doing more to cure cancer, the pharmaceutical industry or the supplement industry. It clearly is the pharmaceutical industry as the supplement industry has not shown anything. Pharmaceuticals might not have won the game, but they are hitting singles and doubles. Supplements not only haven’t shown up at the stadium, they are sitting at home on the couch sleeping.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “I believe Dr. Wallach is right about many things when he talks about missing minerals in our soil which is indisputable.”
Again, you are entitled to your belief, but it doesn’t match with all the points the article made. Wallach hasn’t addressed any of those points… and this forum is waiting for him.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “Western doctors and big pharma work together to keep the sick system going so they can continue to line their pockets.”
Yes, these doctors and pharmaceutical companies want to watch their parents, children, and spouses die from diseases. There isn’t a single doctor or person in the pharmaceutical industry willing to blow the whistle on your crazy conspiracy theory. Hmmm, seems like there are a logical holes there… and also no evidence or proof of it.
While on the topic, it doesn’t look like any Eastern doctors have a cure for cancer. If they did, clearly people would go get it. We live in a society where travel is relatively cheap.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “There is no such thing as ‘preventive care’ in North America. Doctors ONLY make their money when we are sick!!!!”
There’s plenty of preventative health edcuation… the problem is that most people don’t care to follow it. People know they should quit smoking. They know they shouldn’t be obese. It you want to be part of the solution, work on psychology behind this to get people to make great food choices and get plenty of exercise. Introducing people to snake oil only serves to spread a myth that there’s a pill/juice that will instantly make them healthy… and hide the proven preventive measures of eating healthy and getting great exercise.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “I also know someone personally whose health made a huge come-back after going on Youngevity products for a year. His doctor told him he would never get better, that he would have to go on kidney dialysis and that NOTHING could be done to help him. WRONG!! Ignorant and arrogant doctors who try to play God. Shame on them, and good for my friend who didn’t give his power away to the BS! He never did have to go on kidney dialysis and no longer is on ANY pharmaceutical medication.”
Ahh, the typical, “I know someone who…” argument. Where is the documentation of this? Ahhh, for the millionth time, it’s never been done. Shame on your for using an anonymous, unverfied testimonial which is the worst piece of information you can ever supply
In other news, billions of people who have taken pharmaceutical medication have been helped.
Who should we believe, those billions of people or your anonymous, unverfied testimonial?
Lisa Thibodeau said, “The only difference between a doctor and a politician is that doctors have no choice but to believe the limited scope of information that is offered in Med School.”
Wow, I didn’t realize that politicians were licensed to practice medicine. That’s news to me. And why would doctors have no choice, but to believe in something. People can believe in anything they want… even if it completely irrational… you’ve shown that here.
Lisa Thibodeau said, “A good friend of mine graduated from Med School in the Carribean after living in Hong Kong for 15 years. He challenged his med professors many times because of the misleading information that was being taught in class. A lot of doctors DO know far more information beyond anything they’re taught in Med School, but if they tell their patients any of the ‘REAL GOOD STUFF’, they will be fired.”
Hmmm, a lot of doctors have private practices, so they can’t be fired. And again, if any of this information can be shown to be helpful, it would make companies billions of dollars… maybe trillions of dollars. Why do these companies not want billions of dollars?
Lisa Thibodeau said, “Better to shut everyone up at the expense of our health! Shame on the government. Shame on the food industry. Shame on the FDA. Shame on the doctors. All those departments I just mentioned make up the most toxic soup ever!!!!”
Great, you’ve now expanded the conspiracy theory to include millions of people… none of whom are willing to provide their “CURE”s (your capitals).
Lisa Thibodeau says
Wow… the ignorance stupefies me, although not really considering that’s the biggest problem of all with people who ONLY believe in something unless it’s “scientifically proven or FDA approved”. What a joke! Clearly, you are one of millions unfortunately who only believe what is told in mainstream media which, if you knew anything at all, only skims the surface of what is really going on the world. Yeah yeah.. you just go on believing the brainwashed theory that the medical system is truly looking out for you. You’re just a number in their eyes who gets pushed through the system which does not look at you as an individual. Clearly, I know far more than you do about health based on your arguements which are totally futile. Good luck with your beliefs! Even more so, good luck with your health because with your belief system, sounds like you’re going to need it. And I will just continue to be grateful for the fact that I have an open mind and know there are natural cures out there that don’t have to be FDA approved. It’s a NO-BRAINER! Haven’t you ever heard of “Hmmmm….if it’s something derived from nature that can help people get well, then daaaahhhh…The FDA makes NO money because you can’t put a patent on it”. An what a sin for them..We’ll just continue on with taking this patented medication that kills over a hundred thousand people each year in the U.S. Hmmm… there are no warning signs on natural remedies that say: Possible side effects… MAY CAUSE DEATH. And they HAVE to put that on there because prescription medication is killing people every day! You have been clearly brainwashed. Doc says: Sorry dude, you’re going to die in 3 months. Your response will be: ok thanks, I guess I’ll go home and get ready to die in 3 months. Sad for you and all the millions of others who have heard that same comment and believed their doctor because they think they’re God. Because I work in complimentary medicine, I see people in my practice getting better all the time, AFTER they have tried everything with their family docs and have gotten NO RESULTS!!! Are you a doctor? I hope not. My friend is a doctor and he sees the corruption and limitations in what is taught. He sees the corruption in how doctors read blood work which can be TOTALLY inaccurate. The range between low and high on a blood test is HUGE. If your RH factor, for example, jumped to 22 over 6 months, the doctor isn’t going to care because it still falls within that huge range that they call “NORMAL”. And you make the analogy of “The world is flat” to me!!!! You’re the one who clearly cannot see beyond anything helping anyone except for the Western Medicine, our polluted food, polluted water, and exercise. Oh! And I bet you believe in the Canada Food Guide, which is all dietcians and hospitals preach to their patients. That food guide should have been thrown out the window years ago. Yup! Everything you need, you can get in your four food groups: Whole grains which have been genetically modified. Dairy products derived from animals that have been forced fed with genetically modified grains and then when they get sick (because the FDA doesn’t want to waste the sick animals), get injected with antibiotics which then enter our bloodstream through the food we eat. Fruit and vegetables which have been sprayed to death with pesticides and other chemicals and grown in depleted soils. And then the meat. I say no more. Wow, I feel like I am explaining something to a 5 year old. Hey buddy.. I don’t need proof from a scientist or the FDA. My proof is in how I feel. And if you are that ignorant to not believe that a person can get well off of Youngevity, or any other natural means (including the power of thought/emotions on the physical body, or epigenetics,etc.) all because it hasn’t been scientifically proven, then sad for you and all others alike. Best of luck.
Lisa Thibodeau says
Last thing: If your loved one was sick and wasn’t getting any better from FDA approved drugs, and then went to a naturopath, followed their advice on diet modifications and took their supplements and got better…. What would you do? Would you say to that person “Sorry I don’t care if you look and feel better. It hasn’t been FDA or scientifically proven therefore, I don’t believe that you are actually feeling better”. Thank God for complimentary medicine, because if it weren’t for that, then the world would REALLY be screwed.
Lisa Thibodeau says
I think I finally got it! This is a MAN I’m talking to who can’t stand the idea that he may possibly not know everything. You have made it very clear that you do not know the difference between fact and opinion. Not to mention how unprofessional you are by telling me to shut up. Thanks for the cheap entertainment!
Lisa Thibodeau says
Hey Giovi. You rock!!! I just wanted to say that before I quit this lazy ass site for good. In the same way shallow people are defined by money and status, clearly Lazy only sees a blind two feet in front of him.. and those two feet dictate: I’ll only believe you if you have actual proof, reports, stats, tests, results, bla bla bla. Hey lazy, you ever heard of something simple and powerful called “intuition”? Probably not if your degree was in computer science. Good luck Giovi!!!
Rhonda MacDonald says
After reading all the comments I see on this website, I’d say that Giovi is the only who knows what he’s talking about. Whoever this Lazy guy is, he sounds like a complete asshole.
Lazy Man says
Let me start of by saying that I don’t appreciate you creating multiple user name here trying to act like you are different people. Maybe you shouldn’t resort to fraud and deception. Just some helpful tips for you.
Your rant about mainstream media is misguided. The science of whether products work or not does not care about media. It is the supplement industry that relies on the media (Dr. Oz has been famously covered in this space) to get the public to buy products that aren’t scientifically shown to work.
And yes, natural remedies don’t say “may cause death” but let’s not forget that natural is not necessarily safe. There are tons of poisonous mushrooms and other natural agents. And as the famous George Carlin once said (paraphrased), “Dog poop is natural.” So think twice before you jump on the natural bandwagon.
You might want to look into being less sexist. You are the one looking like a butthole for calling others buttholes and going off about the “This is a MAN I’m talking to.”
Ignacio Paredes says
You have been the creator of one of the most serious and high scientific common sense article. After reading it,I feel satisfied in my mind about the wisdom of you words. The MLM scam is coming to my country (Chile, by the way) and I had the opportunity to go to meetings to attract distributors and increase their sales force. I think it is very true that these companies are scams, then go from country to country promising to heal your disease and make you younger (and millionare). Jeunesse & Youngevity are working In This MLM BS. Any ordinary person, with a basic level of of science knowledges can understand that this is impossible if it is not supported by any scientific facts … because if they are not, at least for me, they do not have any validity, PERIOD !. People who go blind themselves with great testimonials and great success stories of products, followers of promises to be younger, heal disease, to make millions in a short time, they belong, according to a rising tide of lost souls that seek to believe in something that will give them miraculous nirvana and will be able to direct their lives with better and “HIGHER” purpose, to be millionaires, healthy and young forever.
Thanks for such enlightening article and your serious investigation of the facts. It makes me sad and angry at the same time to read comments of many people that dindn’t took the time to read your article completely, but just look it over and start their fruitless critique unbacked, only deafening beliefs and hopes.
Be aware that these scams are spreading around the world from U.S.incredibly faster. Apparently here in Chile abound lost souls looking for something to believe in, and there is no authority (local authority I mean)to protect us from these international scams.
Again, thank you for your article Lazy Man.
Peace and wisdom.
Charles Horton says
You truly are a lazy man. You did absolutely no research on Dr. Wallach. He was first a Veterinarian, and then an animal and human pathologist (did over 20,000 autopsies on humans), and then in some research he was involved in he discovered he could induce Cystic Fibrosis in monkeys by limiting their selenium in their diet. This should have given him a Noble prize in medicine, but instead he was black balled from Veterinarian work. He was sure there was a link between minerals and over 900 chronic “deficiency” diseases so he continued to research this as he worked on a mammoth project that gave veterinarian cures for every species of bird, reptile, mammal, and fish. The book is now housed in the Smithsonian as a national treasure. Since then Dr. Wallach has discovered treatments that roll back many of the effect of MD, and gave his results to Jerry Lewis for free because he just wanted those suffering from this to have better lives. Jerry Lewis took the results to the MDA foundation and they fired him on the spot. They don’t want the truth out there. They would rather keep milking suckers for donations every Labor Day. You truly are a lazy man. Finding this information took me about 3 minutes. Verifying it took about 15 minutes. Your whole site is a fraud. You accept the claims of anything cheap and full of fillers, manufactured in a way that destroyed nutrient value and are skeptical of a really pure form of nutrition that has reversed my high blood pressure and removed me from a pre-diabetic condition. I have lost 45 pounds in 2 years as I have a much smaller appetite now that I am being fully nourished, and the money I save on groceries pays for all of my Tangy Tangerine and EFAs (the 90 essential nutrients) with enough left over to buy their probiotics too. Keep following the advice of MDs who die on average 10 years earlier than the average couch potato (67 vs 77). I expect to live well beyond 77. I am presently 63 and in great health thanks to Dr. Wallach and Youngevity.
Charles Horton says
BTW…the FDA is that same organization that approved ASPARTAME for human consumption. ASPARTAME breaks down into formaldehyde and methyl alcohol at temperatures above 85 degrees F. ASPARTAME is a poison to humans. ASPARTAME Research has shown that it is a contributing factor in MS, ALS, Memory Loss, Hormonal Problems, Epilepsy, Alzheimer’s Disease, Parkinson’s Disease, Hypoglycemia, Aids, Dementia, Brain Lesions and Neuroendocrine Disorders. What is keeping the FDA from pulling this product from our food supply? They are a totally discredited organization, industry meat puppets.
Lazy Man says
If you weren’t too lazy to read the article and the comments, you’d know that I’ve done extensive research on Wallach… definitely more than any Youngevity salesman. Yes, I covered that he was a veterinarian. I wouldn’t say “first”, because that’s his most reputable education. If he’s given up being a veterinarian it is a step backwards.
I highly doubt the “research” that he could induce Cystic Fibrosis in monkeys by limiting their selenium. In fact, the first research that I found regarding selenium and cystic fibrosis says, “We conclude that selenium is a potential hazard in its use as a health food fad for children with cystic fibrosis and in overdose ingestions. Thus selenium supplementation may have contributed to the morbidity and mortality reported here.”
If you are going to discredit the FDA for approving aspartame, then you need to discredit Wallach for inventing porcine Alzheimers disease and claiming to cure it when no such thing exists. At a minimum the FDA blocks a good deal of harmful products and does a lot of good. Can’t say that Wallach’s products have ever helped a single person.
This isn’t a discussion about the FDA. If you have a problem with them, take it to another blog because it has nothing to do with whether Youngevity’s products are safe or effective. It’s like trying to justify a magic carpet by saying that the automobile industry is corrupt. Anyone with any intelligence can see that a rant about the automobile industry doesn’t mean a thing when it comes to the magic carpet you are selling.
I would like to make a couple of points:
Youngevity products may be more expensive than other brands. However, the same could be said about almost any other industry. In my country you pay twice, three times plus as much for a Mercedes vehicle than a Toyota. Is the Mercedes a significantly better vehicle. In the minds of some people they are because they purchase the Mercedes.
In a past life I sold very expensive automotive tools. You could buy a 10mm spanner at the market for 1/10th of the price of the expensive tool – they did the same job to an extent (they both undo/do up a 10mm nut) but there were still people willing to pay 10 times as much for a 10mm wrench.
I guess it is the same thing with supplements. I have no doubt you can find cheaper supplements, but there will always people willing to pay for the more expensive products because they believe they are being helped.
The argument on whether they are being helped or not will no doubt be a continual debate but people have the choice to buy dearer supplements because they are ‘sold’ on the supplement – just like people are ‘sold’ on the idea that a Mercedes is a much better vehicle than a Toyota. So I don’t think we can be critical of a company that sells a dearer product, otherwise we would have to be critical of 50 percent of all companies.
My observations in regards to the benefits or not of Youngevity include that there seems to be two sides of the story always.
I read where the naysayers are saying that promoting that you should not worry if your cholesterol levels are high is dangerous. But I then read where some very eminently qualified doctors like Dr Stephen Sinatra, Dr Jonny Bowden, Dr John Bergman all say that we should not be so concerned about the high cholesterol levels – it is the body’s repair mechanism, rather we should get to the bottom of what is causing the high cholesterol.
So on one hand you have the naysayers saying ‘high cholesterol is bad – take a statin drug’ and the other side is saying ‘no no no, high cholesterol is not the problem – find the problem’. Sinatra and Bowden also promote that higher cholesterol is good in older people. Who do I believe?
Which returns me to my first point. A certain percentage will believe the advice they hear from Joel Wallach and purchase his product. They believe the message, just like the purchasers of a Mercedes believe the Mercedes message. Are they making a bad decision? According to the naysayers they are, but according to others they are not.
I have read a fair bit about Youngevity and I have never come across anyone saying the products actually harmed them. The naysayers all say there is a potential for adverse health effects, but fail to provide any evidence that taking the product has actually affected ‘Mr X’ health. And to the contrary, there seems to be a lot of people who have experienced significant health benefits.
So if a person is happy to pay the price for Youngevity products, why would you castigate the person selling the product – there is obviously a market for the product.
Lazy Man says
Steve, sorry, I didn’t get to your comment earlier.
I addressed your Mercedes/Toyota argument in the article. There is obviously a difference in quality that can be objectively quantified in numerous ways between any two particular set of cars. This is not the case with Youngevity and other vitamins. No one can or has ever objectively determined any difference in quality. And if they ever do, I wish them luck in quantifying it. You can say that Youngevity is the Mercedes and the Opti-Men (or fill in another similar multi-vitamin) is the Toyota, because I can say the exact opposite (Opti-Men is the Mercedes and Youngevity is the Toyota) and you’d have no case to prove me wrong.
As I covered in the in the article here that was mentioned in the article above, people are paying more because of the psychological factors involved such as group think, false testimonials, financial bias (subconscious or not), etc. Put the same product on a store shelf instead of selling it via MLM and it fails. This has been shown to be true with LifeVantage Protandim. Before it was MLM, it was at GNC and no one claimed it did anything great. Once it went MLM and all those psychological factors kicked in, people’s belief about the VERY SAME PRODUCT changed completely and started to tell stories about how it heals everything under the sun.
There is no debate on whether people are being helped or not. They aren’t. They simply think they are. In fact, as I pointed out in the article, research shows that multi-vitamins are actually harmful.
If you think there are two sides to every story, then please explain the victim’s side of domestic abuse. Snake oil sales defrauding customers is not a “two sides to every story” situation that you can just pass off.
The discussion of Youngevity has nothing to do with cholesterol. If you see your medical doctor, he is not going to tell you to take Youngevity products. If he does, you need to get yourself a new doctor right away.
Yes, a certain percentage will believe Joel Wallach and purchase his product. There is a sucker born every minute. You don’t want to be the sucker in that “certain percentage.” Yes, the same certain people may think the world is flat. Disregarding science and what has been proven millions of times is what the people supporting Youngevity have done.
They might as well be claiming that they can roll a 13 on a pair of dice. If a few people make that claim and a much larger group of “naysayers” show that it doesn’t make sense, we don’t just say, “Well some think this and the naysayers think that.” We say, “These few people have failed to justify their outrageous claim and until they do, they are full of bovine excrement.”
Here’s your proof of damage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing#Dietary_supplement_use_and_unhealthy_behavior. Be sure to read the scientific citations before you go into an idiotic rant that Wikipedia is not a reliable source. The sources cited are indeed reliable.
There’s no real legitimate market for most MLM products. There’s a combination of deception, as we’ve seen here, along with illegal pyramid schemes. It isn’t genuine or you’d see the products be successful on store shelves.
Yoga Rani says
I encountered these folks at a Health Show recently in Toronto and their liquid minerals looked interesting. They convinced me to wait for the doctor as he ‘they said’ could help me, pointing to my cane.
Thought I do not agree with everything that is said in the article below, everyone has a right to their opinion, I think it’s worth reading as this company is surely up to no good and there are some valid points made here.
Youngevity is an MLM Company, that is selling nutritional products that are well above the market value of similar products. In my experience, there was little to no actual consultation, but a big ‘scare tactic’ sales pitch to justify that I needed $400 worth of their nutritional products per month. The products and dietary advice they are giving to ‘unsuspecting people’ who are just wanting to be their best self, healthiest possible; simply does not seem to have much basis in reality. They seem rely on the fact that, Dr. Joel Wallach, ND, supports their products. And as far as I know their products might be okay, what’s not okay is their approach to selling them which in my experience was fear based, and what I ‘needed to take’ was decided on the basis of an opinion having seen me physically, versus having taken any medical, dietary or supplement history.
Here is my experience:
The ‘doctor’, after seeing my cane, decided (with not enough of a history to determine) that I had gluten intolerance, and had to make radical changes in my diet and follow his instructions or be using a walker in two years, and be in a wheelchair in thee or four. I am not gluten intolerant! I was to stop eating all gluten containing foods immediately according to him. Normally a ND or dietician, or even a personal trainer, like myself will look at a diary of a client’s diet to see what they are eating before telling them what their problem foods and dietary habits might be. This put up a lot of red flags for me as fearmongering is bad medicine, no matter what sort of a doctor one is.
This doctor claimed Yoga and exercise ‘could only do so much’, and the rest needed to come from his products ($400 worth per month that I had to sign up for autoship to receive). I guess he did not know that fully practicing Yoga also means following an Ayurvedic diet that matches your body type as best as you can.
He also wanted me to get an inversion board, which is something that doctors had advised me against doing due to an unstable pelvis after an accident about 5 years ago. There is no nutritional cause for injury!!!
Among the whackiest things he claimed was that ‘oils in our diet, even healthy ones were toxic to the body’, and I had to eliminate all oils from my diet, and even putting oils on my skin, and essential oils (which are not actual oils by the way) must not be diluted with oils when used.
My mother is an Aromatherapist and I have studied enough Aromatherapy to know how to blend essential oils with a carrier oil. I also know that many oils should not be used directly on the skin. Some essential oils can actually burn the skin, thyme for instance.
Secondly, the brain needs oils, and so does the body. They must be good ones EFAs, Omega 3s, Borage Oils…
Let’s just say that the man, Dr. Joel Wallach, was not completely forthcoming. Obviously I walked away with a bad taste in my mouth as to what the company was about and wondered why they were at the Health Show in the first place.
I am a Yoga Therapist and Teacher, (with a good deal of Ayurvedic Medicine Training) an Aquafit Instructor and a Personal Trainer (with a good deal of nutritional understanding of what a person who is active needs to eat and what supplements if any they might require.
I am trained to help people with osteoporosis and heart and lung issues with physical and breathing exercises and some nutritional advice.
I was shocked. The bill per month to take all the thing recommended on a form which was essentially his prescription was nearly $400 per month.
On the growing of food, there is some truth to the statement that soil is depleted of nutrients, and some food is now grown hydroponically, which means it is grown in water & fed liquid nutrients, and has no contact with soil whatsoever. And therm there is bioengineering to consider. The way food is grown in changing and it is resulting in less nutrients in our fruits and veggies, to what extent, we do not know. I don’t think Monsanto and co are that interested in how their products influence nutrition and health as much as they are interested in their bottom line.
There are some things I think it’s important to take supplements for, and other things you get from food or your body manufactures itself. There are some supplements that help us with immunity, others with bone strength, others with digestion, others for pre and post exercise. It’s very important that we know what we are taking and why, and that the product is biologically available. This means that the body can digest and absorb it into the cells and therefore utilize it.
It is very important to ‘know what your blood test results are’ to know what supplements you should be taking as well. The majority of people are taking supplements that they do not need. Youngevity seems to be taking it to a whole new level!
Please avoid Youngevity, just felt they were not on the up and up given my experience, personal & professional knowledge of nutrition. If you want to see an alternative practitioner, such as a Naturopathic Doctor find out their qualifications and be sure that they don’t fear monger you into signing up for MLM products. A real doctor would not do that!
Be careful with anyone selling you products, be sure you can trust the folks at the pharmacy or health food store where you get your supplements and check with your doctor about what you should be taking. Changes are all you need is a simple daily vitamin mineral tablet, unless you have other health issues that you might need special nutritional help for,
You will keep younger longer, with a healthy diet, begin physically active either with Yoga, Aquafit or weight training combined with healthy walking. If Yoga is not your thing, you should regardless be doing some stretching and breathing exercises. Lungs need exercise too!
DARLENE WARD says
I am using their products and my skin looks so much better..The brown spots on my hands are fading away and my hair is thicker. I have been taking this for almost a year and I love it. Joel Wallach has helped me,so I can’t speak for anyone else but I am satisfied and will continue working with him. I just wish it werent so expensive….Darlene
Lazy Man says
Sounds like claims we’ve seen before for other MLM products that don’t make sense… like: Nancy Leavitt, LifeVantage Pro 10 Distributor, Makes Illegal Claims That Protandim Made Her Skin Cancer Vanish.
I highly doubt there’s any credible research that shows that says drinking salt water helps skin spots fade away or hair get thicker.
Linda J says
It must just be me. I am the one that used Youngevity and never saw or felt any results. I only took it for 4 months but in that 4 months I used a lot of their product.
Now I see a post on LifeVantage Protandim and can honestly say I took it faithfully for 2 years and never, ever saw or felt any difference. The lady that I bought it through insisted that my arthritis would improve and that I would be able to sleep at night and on and on and nothing ever changed! Finally I got smart and stopped spending my money on it! I am 68 years old and my brown spots did not go away or even fade. My Protandim supplier tried her best to get me to say there was some improvement in something…..and there just wasn’t……just sayin!
‘…Put the same product on a store shelf instead of selling it via MLM and it fails…’
I take it that what you were trying to say is that all MLM products, if just sold on the store shelf rather than through a MLM platform would not work.
That would seem to be a pretty general statement. However, I don’t think that a bad product can be made good for any length of time as evidenced by your example. I was going to say that eventually a bad product gets found out but then a whole list of pharmaceutical companies flashed through my mind and I realized you could continue to sell bad products for a very long time as long as you continued to promote the lie.
And I guess that is what you are trying to argue – Youngevity are good at promoting the ‘lie’. That is a personal opinion and I don’t think you are providing a very compelling argument that it is a lie as I will address below.
‘…There is no debate on whether people are being helped or not. They aren’t. They simply think they are. In fact, as I pointed out in the article, research shows that multi-vitamins are actually harmful…’
To make the big bold statement that no one is being helped by multi-vitamins would indicate a very narrow minded approach to the topic. Heck, even when I went to the doctor the doc advised I should take some vitamin D – so even the doctors would seem to agree that some vitamins are helpful.
I would also contend that even if taking vitamins causes a person to think they are being helping – isn’t that a good thing. It is amazing what the mind can do and if a person, by taking a supplement, thinks they have been helped – then I don’t see why they should be discouraged. That is unless you subscribe to the theory that vitamins and mineral supplements are causing damage, which even though you think you have provided conclusive evidence – I suggest you haven’t.
May I suggest, that, for everyone that says multi-vitamins are harmful you will get a similar amount of people who swear that they have had outstanding results from taking a supplement.
‘…If you think there are two sides to every story, then please explain the victim’s side of domestic abuse.
Snake oil sales defrauding customers is not a “two sides to every story” situation that you can just pass off. The discussion of Youngevity has nothing to do with cholesterol. If you see your medical doctor, he is not going to tell you to take Youngevity products. If he does, you need to get yourself a new doctor right away…’
You state that there are not two sides to every story and pointed me to the victims side of domestic abuse, then tell me that Cholesterol has nothing to do with Youngevity. What has the victims of domestic abuse got to do with a discussion on Youngevity – Pleeeassseee that is ridiculous.
The point I was making with Cholesterol is that you cannot definitively say something is right or wrong. For years it has been promoted to us by the ‘experts’ that you should eat a low fat diet and there is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol etc. Now an equally qualified set of people say that cholesterol is not the problem.
Just like there are very qualified people advocating the use of a mineral and vitamin supplement. There are also naysayers who argue the exact opposite.
For you to say you are definitely right and backed up by science is dangerous because for decades we have been told that the science backs up that cholesterol is bad (still promoted by doctors) yet there are eminently qualified people telling us the ‘cholesterol is bad’ science is not right.
Getting back to the two sides to every story – your analogy of domestic violence is so far off the mark that it is almost embarrassing. I don’t think any rational sane thinking person would support domestic violence in any way. There are two sides to the story but one of the sides has absolutely no justification. Whereas taking a mineral and vitamin supplement has a very strong justification for a lot of people – it makes them feel good.
Once again – there are suitably qualified people who advocate the use of minerals and vitamins and there are suitably qualified people who say they are harmful, but I don’t think you can prove conclusively that taking a vitamin and mineral supplement is dangerous in general. I have not checked but there is probably people who have had serious consequences from taking too much iron or zinc etc but I would back it in that if there were people who suffered consequences of taking minerals – there has been exceptional circumstances which are not applicable to the majority of the population.
Can you prove that taking a mineral and vitamin supplement is harmful to even a small percentage of the population?
You state disregarding science that has been proven millions of times is what people supporting Youngevity have done. So you advocate taking statin drugs, which have been ‘proven millions of times’ to be ‘beneficial’… As I keep saying, there are two sides to every story and to blindly accept what the ‘science’ tells us can be just as dangerous.
Going by your definition of a sucker then I don’t think many will escape your label of sucker tag because most people who drink alcohol, eat fast food, watch to much TV, all things that have actually been proven to be bad for you, would be considered a sucker, whether it be a sucker to mass advertising or peer pressure or whatever. Who would not fall into that category of sucker?
So are the people who take Youngevity supplements suckers – well according to you they are but plenty of sane, well educated people who can actually think for themselves take the supplements.
‘…we don’t just say, “Well some think this and the naysayers think that.” We say, “These few people have failed to justify their outrageous claim and until they do, they are full of bovine excrement.”…’
The same could be said about the outrageous claim that mineral and vitamin supplements don’t work… As previously mentioned, even doctors prescribe vitamin and mineral supplements in certain circumstances. You have failed to justify beyond doubt that taking supplements is harmful as evidenced by the many of people who testify they have experienced huge benefits… or are ALL those testimonials fake.
You have also got to be kidding about introducing the Wikipedia article into your argument. The basis of the article is that taking supplements caused participants to be more prone to subsequently engage in unhealthy activities. The argument is not that the supplements were harmful – rather it made the people taking the supplements feel that because they were taking something healthy, they could indulge in something like smoking which is unhealthy. Hardly an argument that taking supplements is harmful or are you suggesting minerals and vitamins have the same effect as a mind altering drug!
As for there being no legitimate market for most MLM products. Far be it from me to defend MLM products but I think the mere fact that some MLM’s are very successful would indicate there is a legitimate market. Is it for everyone – we all know that it is not, but there is a place in the market for almost everything… and there is probably someone in the world selling dog poop – maybe not a big market but nonetheless a market. If they were to market it under the MLM banner and people brought dog poop for fertilizer – would it be an illegitimate market?
So in summary – I still say there is two sides to every story… you choose to believe that taking vitamins and minerals is harmful, backed up by ‘your’ science and I choose to take vitamins and minerals backed up by my experience and very well qualified people whose advice I choose to respect.
Lazy Man says
Regarding my quote about putting the MLM product on store shelves and it would fail… Steve said, “I take it that what you were trying to say is that all MLM products, if just sold on the store shelf rather than through a MLM platform would not work. That would seem to be a pretty general statement. However, I don’t think that a bad product can be made good for any length of time as evidenced by your example. I was going to say that eventually a bad product gets found out but then a whole list of pharmaceutical companies flashed through my mind and I realized you could continue to sell bad products for a very long time as long as you continued to promote the lie.”
It was a general statement, but it wasn’t meant to apply to “all MLM products.” I can only speak about my experience with a few dozen of MLM health products that rely on the miracle/snake oil testimonials that have been mentioned by Dr. Jonny Bowden and the over 50 year history of such fraud in MLM.
Actually pharmaceutical products have a check in place. This is why Fen/Phen and Vioxx aren’t on the market. In the MLM world you can sell bad products indefinitely for all the reasons stated at No, Your MLM Health Product Doesn’t “Work.”, which is backed by doctors and scientists. There are literally over a dozen references there from group think, to cognitive dissonance, to financial bias of the salesmen.
MLM companies typically have a 60-90% annual churn rate in their distributors. So the bad products do get found out within a year… people just quit and move on with their lives. New people are brought in on the false promises and the cycle repeats. There’s a great article on how that works here: http://seekingalpha.com/article/1079421-but-mr-ackman-herbalife-is-a-sustainable-pyramid-scheme.
Regarding my quote about vitamins not helping … Steve said, “To make the big bold statement that no one is being helped by multi-vitamins would indicate a very narrow minded approach to the topic. Heck, even when I went to the doctor the doc advised I should take some vitamin D – so even the doctors would seem to agree that some vitamins are helpful.”
I’ve presented the research time and again, but in studying hundreds of thousands or millions of people, the conclusion was clear… “Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements.” That’s the quote from the scientists, doctors, and researchers, not me. It is a general statement for a vast majority of as cited in the article. Read the research and if you have a problem take it up with the authors and let me know when they print a retraction. My statement wasn’t about every individual’s case for every individual vitamin. Note that your doctor did not suggest Youngevity’s vitamins or even a multi-vitamin at all. She/he suggested a very specific one for your very specific case, which may be that you don’t get outside enough or don’t drink milk. The doctor probably figured it was easier to fix this one thing with one vitamin than try to change your eating habits.
This is very different than the conversation that’s happened here, which is something like, “Chemotherapy doesn’t work, so clearly multivitamins are the answer.” That conversation is wrong on so many levels and Steve your time would be better spent educating those people to their lack of logic rather than trying to find a nit-pick the scientists research that I’ve cited and attempting to find an edge-case around it.
Steve said, “I would also contend that even if taking vitamins causes a person to think they are being helping – isn’t that a good thing.”
Nope it’s not. This is covered in-depth in the article No, Your MLM Health Product Doesn’t “Work.”, which, again, is backed by doctors and scientists. I’m not going to cut and paste the information here.
And if you are going to make arguments about vitamins and minerals in general, please do so on this article: Should you be Buying Supplements? Even if you establish a case for buying vitamins and minerals, against the research, a comment here would then have to justify the value of the crazy prices of Youngevity vitamins and minerals.
For example, stating that car takes you from point A to point B does not in any way justify a Honda dealership charging you $300,000 for a Civic. I think you’d still be justified in calling that a scam. And that is even more true if the salesman tries to tell you that the cars take you back in time when you reach 88 mph… which is similar in believability to many of the claims we’ve seen here.
Steve said, “May I suggest, that, for everyone that says multi-vitamins are harmful you will get a similar amount of people who swear that they have had outstanding results from taking a supplement.”
May I suggest that one has scientific evidence showing it true (multi-vitamins are harmful) and the other (people swearing on results) is proven to be scientifically unreliable due to the placebo effect.
Steve said, “You state that there are not two sides to every story and pointed me to the victims side of domestic abuse, then tell me that Cholesterol has nothing to do with Youngevity. What has the victims of domestic abuse got to do with a discussion on Youngevity – Pleeeassseee that is ridiculous.”
It’s an analogy use to illustrate to you that the argument of “two sides to every story” is not valid. I used an extreme example so that you could easily see your error. It wasn’t a comparison. So do you see your two errors now? I’ll point them out clearly:
1. It isn’t fair to categorize fraud/abuse as “two sides to the story” and swipe it under the rug. If you’ve been a victim of either I’m fairly sure you would not have been comforted by an explanation of “there are two sides to every story.”
2. You mistaken believed there was some comparison between Youngevity and domestic violence which is one I was very careful not to make.
Steve said, “The point I was making with Cholesterol is that you cannot definitively say something is right or wrong. For years it has been promoted to us by the ‘experts’ that you should eat a low fat diet and there is good cholesterol and bad cholesterol etc. Now an equally qualified set of people say that cholesterol is not the problem.”
You can use that Cholesterol argument to talk people into crazy, non-sensical behavior. For example, you could claim that we should start smoking cigarettes. The argument would be, “Experts are now claiming that cigarettes aren’t healthy and should be avoided, but what if future research shows that cigarettes are not the problem?”
You are trying to use an exception to the rule (the Cholesterol case) to define a new rule and make it the typical case. This is extremely dangerous and you should avoid this immediately.
If you want to be accurate, you could say that in the past scientists and doctors told people to take vitamins just like they told them avoid cholesterol. However, the latest research has shown, like with cholesterol, that their hypothesis was wrong… we should not be taking vitamins.
When scientists have come out to say, “Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements”, how much more definitive can they be?
Steve said, “Just like there are very qualified people advocating the use of a mineral and vitamin supplement. There are also naysayers who argue the exact opposite.”
Except that no one seems to come up with any qualified people advocating the use of multi-vitamins and minerals for any medical condition other than scurvy, rickets and those vitamin-deficiency conditions that are well-known. Wallach certainly doesn’t count as qualified considering his “distortions, bogus science, and outright lies”. The people brought up in this thread (Wallach and the other naturopath whose name I forget) are Youngevity salesmen. Their obvious and clear bias combined with their history of bogus science/lies doesn’t make them qualified.
I’m going to skip quoting a few paragraphs, because you repeat yourself with the cholesterol argument, domestic abuse argument, and the vitamins make people feel good argument, that I’ve already explained debunked in this response, and previously in the comments.
Steve said, “So you advocate taking statin drugs, which have been ‘proven millions of times’ to be ‘beneficial’… As I keep saying, there are two sides to every story and to blindly accept what the ‘science’ tells us can be just as dangerous.”
I advocate seeing your doctor and getting his expert medical opinion as he’s spent tons of years and money in medical school learning all this stuff to help you. If necessary get a second opinion from another medical doctor. If they say that statins are right for you, then I advocate taking their advice.
If you blindly accepted the “avoiding cholesterol” advice that “science” (you put it in quotes, so I will as well, but it shouldn’t be), it would not have been dangerous at all. What is the danger in eliminating dietary cholesterol? After all, Harvard still says, “Although it is still important to limit the amount of cholesterol you eat, especially if you have diabetes, for most people dietary cholesterol isn’t nearly the villain it’s been portrayed to be.” You’ll probably focus on the later because that’s the point you are trying to make. I agree with that point and don’t argue it. However, please focus on the part that says “it is still important to limit the amount of cholesterol you eat”.
Steve said, “Going by your definition of a sucker then I don’t think many will escape your label of sucker tag because most people who drink alcohol, eat fast food, watch to much TV, all things that have actually been proven to be bad for you, would be considered a sucker, whether it be a sucker to mass advertising or peer pressure or whatever. Who would not fall into that category of sucker?”
The “suckers” following Wallach (see the quarkery article above for proof of them being suckers) are often under the impression that it will help with their medical conditions. I don’t think anyone believes that drinking alcohol, eatting fast food, or watching too much TV will help with their medical conditions. People are simply making an alternative choice for reasons than health such as convenience/speed of fast food or the entertainment value of television. These are very different than being a victim of fraudulent marketing.
Steve said, “The same could be said about the outrageous claim that mineral and vitamin supplements don’t work… As previously mentioned, even doctors prescribe vitamin and mineral supplements in certain circumstances. You have failed to justify beyond doubt that taking supplements is harmful as evidenced by the many of people who testify they have experienced huge benefits… or are ALL those testimonials fake.”
I’m going to repeat the above quickly as you did here:
1. Minerals and Vitamins as a whole do not work for any medical condition (other than the well-known ones stated) and are a waste of money. This is really the claim of research on many, many people – http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleID=1789253
2. Yes, in certain, well-known, circumstances one particular vitamin or mineral may be useful. This is different than multi-vitamin. A pair of scissors may be useful if you want to cut a string. You don’t go out and buy a huge toolbox. You certainly don’t need to go out and spend $300 on the toolbox when $1 scissors from the dollar store completes your goal. Here’s 900 Servings of Liquid Vitamin D3. Consult your doctor, but I just solved your vtamin D problem for nearly 3 years at less than $20.
3. The fact that’s even a question of whether it is harmful, without benefit, should be enough to keep you away. Who chooses to take things that are shown to be harmful and argues, “You haven’t sufficiently proven to me that it is really harmful.”? That makes no sense at all. It would be like smoker in the 50’s and 60’s saying, “Well, I see you have evidence here, but I still have reasonable doubts, so I’m going to keep smoking.”
4. I don’t need to get into MLM testimonials again. Again, it’s been well-covered here and illegal MLM vitamin testimonials go all the way back to 40s and 50s with Nutrilite. If the testimonials were true, clearly we would have erradicated every disease decades ago. And certainly the stock market would value the company at worth much more than the Red Sox paid Pablo Sandoval to play 3B for them. Or are ALL those people on Wall Street missing the great miracle cure… one with no scientific evidence and a company without the confidence to prove the product works.
Steve said “The basis of the article is that taking supplements caused participants to be more prone to subsequently engage in unhealthy activities. The argument is not that the supplements were harmful – rather it made the people taking the supplements feel that because they were taking something healthy, they could indulge in something like smoking which is unhealthy. Hardly an argument that taking supplements is harmful or are you suggesting minerals and vitamins have the same effect as a mind altering drug!”
Above you made the argument that feeling good is all that counts, not whether the product “works” (i.e. clinically effective). When I show that the false feeling can lead to harmful activities you are going abandon the psychology that you just relied upon? Wow it was easier to sway you than I thought.
I’ll give an example from my MonaVie article. MonaVie spread the rumor that drinking 4 ounces of their juice is equivalent to eating 13 fruits. Distributors came to my site and claimed that they’d be saving money by switching from fruits and vegetables to MonaVie. The company was using ORAC values for its measure of “equivalency.” This deception has lead to the CDC taking down it’s ORAC database because “ORAC values are routinely misused by food and dietary supplement manufacturing companies to promote their products and by consumers to guide their food and dietary supplement choices.” I highlighted the “routinely misused” for emphasis.
So yes, people were clearly making bad and harmful choices thinking that they were protected by their decision to take a supplement. I’m clearly not claiming that they are directly harmful, but the psychology of the false promises leading to harmful behavior. That’s my claim that’s backed up in the article.
Steve said, “As for there being no legitimate market for most MLM products. Far be it from me to defend MLM products but I think the mere fact that some MLM’s are very successful would indicate there is a legitimate market.”
The market for the business opportunity is what makes MLMs “successful.” When I say a legitimate market, I mean for the products at the prices they are charging without the business opportunity attached. Tom Vu sold a lot of no-money down real estate courses in the 1980s and 1990s. He was successful selling the business opportunity. Let’s not confuse that with all the people buying his courses because successful or the courses themselves being legitimate (I don’t know if they were or not).
Steve said, “Is it for everyone – we all know that it is not, but there is a place in the market for almost everything…”
Is fraud for everyone? No it is not, but there is a place in the market for almost everything… I guess under this logic, we can justify crime. Good job.
“I’m clearly not claiming that they are directly harmful…”
But it would not have been unjustified to do so, as they often are. I addressed this in a comment earlier this year where I said: “Stories of contamination, spiking, adulteration etc. are rampant, and there is evidence that supplements are a not uncommon cause of liver diseases.”
This article from NYT tying supplement use to liver disease is a good example.
One can always find someone willing to criticize the products and claim cheaper is available. Too often this is not comparing “apples with apples” and finish up with invalid reports.
stating that one can’t rely on anecdotal claims seems strange because if the get 1000 of those they c all it a survey which instantly becomes valid.
I have used Youngevity products for 11 years and not spending more than $170 per month with great results as I started only because I had the gravely neck and found that in a few months the problem was gone along with a couple of other issues of which I had not even taken a lot of notice. I know many farmers who give their stock salt blocks, containing a variety of minerals as the stock feed is not sufficient for all the nutritional need and it follows that we are in the same boat.
I am prepared to spend some of my cash on having a better life in my older years.
As for “Lazy man”, I think his name says it all and obviously he thinks the doctors know it all. You poor sadly mistaken individual.
Lazy Man says
Ynot48, I used as equal a comparison as possible. It is as “apples to apples” as comparing the nutrition between Coke and Pepsi. I even explained how quality is determined in the space from the independent, non-profit. Thus the point is that you are getting the same quality for 1/3rd the price. This is a very valid observation and one that no one disputes as “invalid” with any logical reason or information to back it up.
It is important to point out price, because it is a key red flag of an MLM being pyramid scheme according to the FTC.
Surveys can be valid if they have the correct controls in place. For example, you want to make sure that the participants are not biased. Thus they can’t be Youngevity distributors due to their obvious financial bias. You have to be sure that the test was placebo-controlled so that people can’t unconsciously sway results. These are all parts of clinical trials which show us what health products “work”. You want to click on that link from the National Institute of Health, because it explains a lot of this.
Nothing wrong with spending your cash on a better life. I simply recommend that you do the basic research to maximize your dollars. If you want to pay $10 at the gas station, that’s your choice. That’s essentially what you are doing with Youngevity products. It’s simply a poor decision.
I never suggested that doctors “know it all”, I only suggest that they are much, much, much better informed than snake oil salesmen using disinformation and pyramid schemes to defraud people.
Alright, lemmie go and throw this out at you, I find it a biased insult by saying that “”This guy believes the American Cancer Society, now I know I can’t trust him.”” That goes and tells me you’re saying that anyone who says that must be a Youngevity Provider. Add in the fact that I’m noticing you’re subtly pushing Opti-Men pills in front of another company product. As such, that gives me the incentive to not trust you, the Opti-Men pills, or any doctor who keeps pushing the same way as you do.
I’m afraid you’ve scared me away from your “truth”. Especially since it seems that these days, “truth” is exceptionally hard to come by, even when seeing it or experiencing it yourself.
Lazy Man says
I’m not advocating Opti-Men pills. In fact, I’ve cited many sources that vitamins and minerals are not helpful and perhaps even harmful. I bring up the comparison with Opti-Men to show that there are essentially equivalent alternatives out there. If someone decided to sell a cola for $10 a two-liter via MLM and I brought up a comparison to Coke and its pricing, I would hope you’d see that I’m not subtly trying to push Coke.
Edward Boggs says
Lisa T.: Bravo to you! Seems some just have their minds made up before truly examining and testing themselves. The spoon-fed. I guess one should not question the “status quo” for it would of a certainty be considered no less than blasphemy.
Don’t get me wrong Lazy Man. There are good physicians out there but they dare not question the “Holy Grail” of the god of Pharmacia.
Edward Boggs says
By the by, I DO question everything with a healthy measure of skepticism, else I wouldn’t have searched out your site. Thanks for the opportunity for debate and open opinion Lazy Man. Ineffably, Edward Boggs
Lazy Man says
When it comes to health products, one doesn’t “test themselves” because of the placebo effect and other psychological things that subconsciously impact the “test.” This is why we have large-scale, blinded, trials to eliminate the placebo effect and bias.
If you make up your mind before you’ve done these large-scale, blinded trials, or before they’ve been done, you are simply not acting intelligently by ignore these crucial factors.
When a company refuses to put forth these large-scale, blinded trials it should scream out to you, “WE HAVE ZERO FAITH IN OUR PRODUCT!” There’s really no other reasonable explanation for such behavior.
Clemson University site seems to be working fine?
Lazy Man says
Yes, I don’t think anyone say otherwise about Clemson University’s website. It’s Clemson University’s Institute of Nutraceutical Research (INR) that doesn’t seem to exist any more. It didn’t seem to exist when Youngevity announced that it was working with INR. It doesn’t seem to have worked since then.
I’m not going to rehash everything (just scroll up and read), but don’t confuse Clemson University with Clemson University’s Institute of Nutraceutical Research (INR).
Tarrie Monet says
For those that are interested..
Perhaps you can get to the Institute for Nutraceutical Research,through this channel. http://www.clemson.edu/NNC/
or contact J. David Gangemi,Ph.D., Executive Director at the above address.
For the record. I am not a Youngevity distributor nor do I take the product…however I am considering it.