Just a few days after Thanksgiving this year, I got an email from a reader who I will call Xander. He noticed his friend network is getting drawn into an MLM called Plexus.
He asked me to write about it, because like many MLMs out there, they aren’t well-covered by the media. Even when they are, such as Nerium, the companies fight hard to push such coverage out of site for those using search engines to find unbiased, reliable information.
I give this explanation for the reader who has probably read a dozen fake reviews by MLM distributors that generally go like this:
“Is [insert MLM product] for real? We have the truth. [Insert a bunch of misleading claims about said MLM product.] Yes [insert MLM product] ‘works.’ Now go buy it from me here! [Or alternatively, join my system to build your MLM here]”
So let’s dig in:
Plexus Products
The first thing that I saw about the products was this warning letter from the FDA. A company has to do some very bad things for the FDA to smack them down like this. In this case the warning letter dated 6/30/14 points out:
“Your Fast Relief, ProBio5 and BioCleanse are not generally recognized as safe and effective for the above referenced uses and, therefore, the products are “new drugs” under section 201(p) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(p)]. New drugs may not be legally introduced or delivered for introduction into interstate commerce without prior approval from FDA, as described in section 505(a) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 355(a)]; see also section 301(d) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 331(d)]. The FDA approves a new drug on the basis of scientific data submitted by a drug sponsor to demonstrate that the drug is safe and effective.
Furthermore, your Fast Relief, ProBio5 and BioCleanse are offered for conditions that are not amenable to self-diagnosis and treatment by individuals who are not medical practitioners; therefore, adequate directions for use cannot be written so that a layperson can use these drugs safely for their intended purposes. Thus, these drugs are misbranded under section 502(f)(1) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 352(f)(1)] in that their labeling fails to bear adequate directions for use. The introduction of a misbranded drug into interstate commerce is a violation of section 301(a) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 331(a)].
The violations cited in this letter are not intended to be an all-inclusive list of violations that exist in connection with your products. You are responsible for investigating and determining the causes of the violations identified above and for preventing their recurrence or the occurrence of other violations. It is your responsibility to ensure that all products marketed by your firm comply with all requirements of federal law and FDA regulations.”
I’ll attempt to translate. Three products were illegally marketed as drugs. They also had inadequate directions for safety. There might be other problems as well, so get your act together.
This is a level worse than what DoTerra received that was about the marketing on their distributor websites. Plexus Worldwide was cited for the claims on their own website, not just their Ambassadors.
To make matters worse for Plexus, The Australian Government says, “Plexus Slim Accelerator capsules and Plexus Slim Accelerator 3 Day Trial pack pose a serious risk to your health and should not be taken.” I have added emphasis on my own.
This has lead to Australia banning the product. That should speak volumes.
Plexus Slim Reviews
I found a great website Plexus Point, that has one of the unbiased reviews that I wanted to write. I’m happy she already did for me. You can read her Plexus Slim Review here. I find it particularly refreshing that she starts off by saying all the glowing Plexus Slim reviews are Plexus ambassadors trying to get you to buy the product. My favorite part overall, was the part where it was banned from Amazon.
The Plexus Slim product review on Plexus’ website itself is especially confusing. A bullet point on the front page says, “Fast and easy.” Presumably this about the weight loss and not the product as the next bullet is, “Saves you time” which covers the supplement taking process. Yet the FAQ says: “A: It is a very subtle yet effective product. Most people begin to recognize benefits approximately 2 weeks after starting the product.” Hmmm, “subtle”, “takes 2 weeks…”
A quick look at Plexus’s website shows that every product has an asterisk beside it. It’s not clear what that goes to, but at the bottom of the page there is text that says, “Disclaimer: These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.”
We can simply review the FDA notice above about how products have to show their safety and effectiveness and Plexus Slim hasn’t done that.
It is important to understand why MLM testimonials are pointless. It’s also important to understand that there are many psychology tricks employed to make you think MLM products work, when they don’t… and yes that article has been validated by unbiased, unpaid scientists acting as consumer advocates.
We don’t have to look too far to see that Plexus isn’t in compliance with the FTC guidelines of weight loss advertising. I found testimonials that didn’t have any disclosures at all on the page. In the FAQs, I read many “your results will vary” type disclosures, which the FTC points out is not enough.
At nearly a thousand words, I feel this is pretty sufficient information on the products and the advertising of the products. I encourage you to go read the links cited, because in many cases, there’s much, much more information there. If I tried to cut and paste that here, this page would be as long as a book. I don’t think anyone wants that.
What About Plexus Company?
Plexus and Inc. 5000 rankings
I noticed that Plexus’ website was quick to point out that it was Inc. Magazine’s #8 company. It’s no lie, you see it here. The problem is that few understand what that means.
I first encountered this claim in MLM companies in 2010, when I saw it with MonaVie… a company that imploded soon after the claim. I wrote about the ridiculous of the claim here: MonaVie and Inc. Magazine’s 500.
It turns out that methodology for the rankings is not what you might think it is. It relates to growth of revenue… which makes it ideally suited for pyramid schemes which exhibit “pop and drop” growth. Notice how MonaVie imploded soon after getting highlighted for the “pop.”
Furthermore, the revenue itself isn’t independently verified. It includes only privately held companies… which is why when you scroll through all the companies, you immediately think, “I haven’t heard of any of these!”
The methodology back in 2010 only takes companies that submitted their data to Inc. 500/5000. It noted that “A number of companies had growth high enough to make the Inc. 500, the top 500 of the Inc. 5000, but did not complete the revenue verification portion of the application process in time for Inc. magazine’s deadline.” There are companies left out of this list. It wasn’t a priority for them to get a badge from Inc. Magazine, because they were too busy actually doing real work.
The Project Manager for Inc. 500/5000 wrote a comment saying that my criticisms were fair.
The point is that the badge is there to try to convince people that it is reputable, but even my article in 2010 pointed out several companies which had won Inc. badges were found to be fraudulent.
If you really want to read about Inc. Magazine and MLM (Plexus’s business model), this is the article for you, Multilevel Mischief.
In summary, Inc. Magazine has not validated Plexus and it has actually condemned MLM.
What About the Business of Plexus?
Before you get into MLM, you should understand the basic problems with the business model. There’s also a great article with more information here. In case you are too lazy to click. Some of the problems include:
- No Moat To Protect Your Business – Anyone can be a Plexus Ambassador. You are literally competing against everyone. If it was a good path to financial freedom everyone would be doing it.
- You Don’t Control Your Business – If the FDA or the FTC shuts down Plexus for the claims they made, you are left holding the bag. If Plexus decides to change pricing, you are left trying to sell even more absurdly priced products. They may claim you are an independent distributor so that they don’t have to pay you benefits such as vacation or health care, but you are beholden to them as any employee would be. In fact, their policies and procedures even has a section on termination.
- No Supply and Demand – There’s no control to pair supply with demand. You won’t see a McDonalds on every block, because there isn’t demand for it. They know enough to not create unnecessary supply that would lead to few sales and them going out of business. The MLM companies don’t care about this. They’ll create as many suppliers as they can, even if there’s no demand for the products. This is why most MLMers find it difficult or impossible to sell their overpriced products. They then turn towards a pyramid scheme model of recruiting people into the business.
At the end of the day, it is really hard to even call MLM a business. The MLM companies like to because starting a business is a great thing that I highly recommend. However, you want to start a GOOD business not a TERRIBLE, FLAWED one.
As Mark Cuban says,
“There are no shortcuts. NONE. With all of this craziness in the stock and financial markets, there will be scams popping up left and right. The less money you have, the more likely someone will come at you with some scheme. The schemes will guarantee returns, use multi level marketing, or be something crazy that is now ‘backed by the US Government’. Please ignore them. Always remember this. If a deal is a great deal, they aren’t going to share it with you.”
That reminds me of the last point. Recruiting people into MLM is a self-defeating purpose. You are creating more salesmen, which compete against you in selling products. Typically they call this “building a team”, but if you study pyramid schemes, it’s also called, “growing my pyramid.”
But is Plexus a Pyramid Scheme?
I’ve read the Plexus compensation plan (PDF) and it looks like one to me.
Let’s take the example that they give:
“If you sponsored 3 Ambassadors and everyone in your organization duplicated your efforts, your organization would look like the one below:… [image not included]… This example is just a made-up scenario to show you how the Plexus Points would accumulate if everyone who came into your organization sponsored 3 new Ambassadors. In this example, if you were receiving Plexus Points 7 levels down, you would have a total of 4,893 Plexus Points. If the Plexus Points that month were valued at $3.25, you would earn $15,902.25 from your Plexus Points.”
I didn’t include the image, but I’ve been working on this for hours now and I gave you the direct link to the compensation plan to see it yourself. The image is the usual diagram of a pyramid scheme of 3 people, who recruit 3 people, who recruit people… for seven levels. It shows that if you build a pyramid of 3,279 people, you too can earn $15,902.25.
I presume that is per month, which is a nice annual income of nearly $200,000… for 1 of the 3,279 people in the group.
Of course if those 3279 are “AutoQualified” at $100 Personal Volume, they’ve paid $327,900 for the month or nearly $4 million dollars for that one person to get that $200,000 in annual income. Now the person earning $200,000 a year doesn’t complain, and may even show off his fancy check to say how successful he is. What he did is create a financial loss for the vast majority of people who followed him.
And of course this example is very unrealistic, because it presumes that one person is going to be able to build a pyramid/team of 3279 people. For a medium sized city of 100,000 to be able to do that they’d have to recruit nearly the rest of the United States… 327 million people. It is unrealistic and unsustainable.
But don’t take my word for it. Let’s see what the FTC has to say:
“Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money… Avoid any plan where the reward for recruiting new distributors is more than it is for selling products to the public… One sign of a pyramid scheme is if distributors sell more product to other distributors than to the public — or if they make more money from recruiting than they do from selling.”
That’s three separate places in the same document that the FTC makes it clear… the majority of the money can’t be made from a downline or it is an illegal pyramid scheme… not a legitimate MLM.
So why is Plexus giving us an example in their compensation where a great amount of money is made from a downline? Why aren’t they giving examples of someone buying 1000 units of product from them and selling them each for a $15 gain to the public (people who are not affiliated with Plexus), and making $15,000 a month that way?
Plexus appears giving an example of someone running a pyramid scheme according to the FTC’s guidelines.
Many distributors say, “How can this be? Law enforcement would shut them down!”
It turns out that the FTC doesn’t have the budget to prosecute all the pyramid schemes out there. Years after USA Today asked if Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing was a pyramid scheme, the FTC was able to shut them down. The company called itself a legitimate MLM for 10 years! Millions of consumers dollars were lost and not recovered in the scam. It took a lot of states Attorney Generals offices, a leading national publication (USA Today), and the FTC to finally get it done.
That’s just one of probably a thousand MLM companies that seem to fit the FTC’s guidelines for being a pyramid scheme.
It’s up to the consumers to be smart and avoid pyramid schemes. It’s also why I’m here to help give you this information. Here’s a video with some more good information on that:
Plexus Conclusions
Between the FDA warnings on the product marketing, the testimonials that violate the FTC guidelines, and what appears to be an illegal pyramid scheme (according to my interpretation of the FTC’s guidelines), I think you know where I’m going with this review.
Save your time and money and move on.
Looking for another opinion? The unbiased Cooper Clinic explains why you should be cautious of Plexus products on WFAA ABC TV channel 8 on April 19, 2016
Hat tip on this: A Woman Scammed
I find it quite hilarious that a website named LAZYmanandmoney is talking about scams. Please direct me to 1 lazy person who is making money.
You should quit doing reviews of MLM’s if you employ the same techniques to try and convince people you can help them make money.
There’s a word for this…
Hypocrite????
I find it hilarious that you are too lazy to read the about page and learn that I’m referring to being efficient.
Next time I suggest you think before throwing out ad hominem attacks. I’m happy that you tacitly agree with this article as you didn’t find anything wrong with it and instead attempted to attack me.
Absolutely perfect. Also, obviously Roger sells Plexus and is offended you pointed out the painfully obvious fact Plexus is a pyramid scheme. Oops.
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume that lazy man and money is an allusion to the expression a fool and his money are soon parted. Thus the articles contained are meant to help educate people on how not to be fools and lose money on get rich quick schemes.
I’m going to go out a bit further on said limb and assume that Roger is not too bright…
My “About” page has a few other explanations for why I chose the name. I think it is coincidence that it kind of works out.
THANK YOU for posting TRUTH!
NEVER in my 35 year career have I experienced a company as ignorant, unprofessional, lackadaisical and unethical as Plexus Worldwide.
It is MY hope to stop companies like this from raping people of their hopes, dreams, hard earned money and many times entire families torn apart due to their deception and greed.
Plexus Worldwide was not the first scam I danced with, but it is the last. Stop the silence, share YOUR truth and let’s end this dirty dance!
AWoman Scammed, you have put some serious research into your website. Kudos! I wish I had the time to focus on it today, but I’ll put it on the list for later.
LazyMan, Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on Plexus. To spare everyone the wasting of time…I am a Plexus ambassador. I am not here to attack you or defend every aspect of my company. I did however want to help you clarify some of the misinformation noted in your article, as I am sure it is your intent to provide accurate reporting.
1. You commented on the statement ” Disclaimer: These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.” It is true that you will find this statement on our products. But please note there are NO healthcare supplements that are FDA approved. This is because the FDA does not approve or disapprove dietary supplements. They do however monitor the marketing, sales and advertising of said products, which relates the the FDA letter you referenced. I think you presented this information in a way that could be misleading, The three products referenced had wording such as “will” instead of “may” which is considered a medical claim, and not permitted by the FDA. Thus, the second paragraph of the letter referenced, is stating by labeling the products with these word choices could be implying these are medications. I feel perhaps your explanation was somewhat suggestive that there was a safety issue involved with the products, which is not the case.
2. MLM vs Pyramid scheme: This is according to your own quote from the FTC, if you make the majority of your income off your downline it is a pyramid scheme. You focused on one example found in a 14 page document outlining the compensation plan As an ambassador, your greatest profit comes from customer sales, not your downline. Also, unlike. Pyramid scheme, our MLM compensation plan outlines 11 ways to be compensated as a distributor. Only 2 of those 11 are related to your downline. The other 9 are related to your customer sales. Also, each person in the downline or team has their own customer base, and can bypass those in his or her “upline”. This is not possible in a pyramid scheme. Our revenue is based in the sales of products, also not true if a pyramid scheme.
3. False testimonies: I am sure, as with any company, there are some that may be exaggerating their personal, professional or financial successes. I have not personally experienced this with anyone that I hsve interacted with as a part of Plexus. I can share with you that my husband and I have experienced many rewards since begining Plexus…weight loss, decrease in blood pressure resulting in being taken off medication to treat this condition, and decrease in GERD symptoms to name s few. I also have a large customer base (not team members or Plexus distributors) that have experienced relief from symptoms they have suffered for years. I think the 60 day money back guarantee ensures that if anyone does not experience benefits that would meet their expectations they will have lost nothing in the process.
Again, it is not my intention to attack or argue your opinion, but rather to share some information that I feel would help you more accurately report or speak on this topic. I would agree Plexus may not work for everyone in the same way, and based on the very individual components of its effects, maybe not in the same timeframe. I would however, question those that seem to feel so strongly about “debunking” Plexus while offering alternative programs to achieve the same goals. You can see that I in no way tried to mask my identity and would welcome you to contact me if you would like any further information. Thank you for your time.
Thank you for the comments Angela. I appreciate you taking the time and politely adding to the discussion.
I’d like to respond by sharing a few things that I think are misleading about your comment.
1) The FDA can and does approve supplement claims: There is a list on their website. Most people already know about calcium and vitamin D with osteoporosis. If there is enough scientific information proving Plexus products are helpful, they can be allowed to make the claim after getting through all the necessary paperwork with the FDA.
So my question is: Where is Plexus with that process?
Also even if something uses “may” instead of “will”, the health claim is still implied. No one can market a supplement as “May help shrink cancer tumors” without the above proof and say so of the FDA.
2) I am quite confident that Diamond Ambassadors make a majority of their money from their downline and not selling product via a party, lemonade stand, or anything else. If this is true, their entire organization would be a pyramid scheme according to the FTC guidelines. I think that would make everyone part of a pyramid scheme.
I found a list of the eleven ways Plexus distributors make money on their website: http://www.plexusworldwide.com/img/Comp%20Plan%20Overview.pdf. Only one, #5 Retail Rewards Program, involves selling product and not recruiting a downline to make money and build rank. While #10 mentions their preferred customer program, that program later states: “If every two months, one Preferred Customer decides to become a Plexus Ambassador, your organization will be growing steadily and so will your check! Furthermore, if every
two months each of the Ambassadors in your organization had one Preferred Customer decide to become an Ambassador, you would see massive growth in your organization.”
So even the preferred customer program seems to be a pitched as recruiting more distributors.
You said something that is completely incorrect, “Also, each person in the downline or team has their own customer base, and can bypass those in his or her ‘upline.’ This is not possible in a pyramid scheme.” This is not a test used by any regulatory agency in looking at whether something is a pyramid scheme. It’s why you don’t see anything in the FTC guidelines about it.
You also said, “Our revenue is based in the sales of products, also not true if a pyramid scheme.” This is also not a test of a pyramid scheme. I’m going to refer you to this CNBC article: “Just because a company says it sells a product, doesn’t guarantee it’s legit. The FTC warns that some schemes can simply use claims of product sales to hide their pyramid structure.”
3) I never see any false and illegal testimonies about Ocean Spray juice, but I see tons of them for MonaVie juice. This happens with all MLM products I’ve covered. It isn’t with “any company.”
The FTC, not the FDA, says that testimonials can’t be used unless it is typical and with adequate proof. So you are saying that Plexus has proof of being a blood pressure lowering medication? They should take this to the FDA and get approval.
The money back guarantees usually don’t work in pyramid schemes, because people aren’t really buying the product for the product, but to qualify for commissions. Every MLM/pyramid scheme has the money back guarantee, but very little product is returned… it would be a slap in the face to the upline, which is typically a friend.
If you are looking for something to achieve the same goals, there’s no substitute for diet and exercise. If you are looking for an “alternative program”, why not start there?
Based on your comment, I’m not sure what I’d change about the article.
Oh my, I think you’ve been pinkwashed. When a company is truly legit with nothing to hide, they don’t need to defend themselves. Readers what do you think and why? Check out the information below then let us know what you think readers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6t0BqNB86Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVvLy2zo5Hw&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyOzaS1-yc8&feature=youtu.be
https://youtu.be/956hHZrECOY
THE PRODUCTS:
REAL Reviews:
http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/my-pinkwashed-journey-nightmare-on-pink.html
http://thepinkdrinkscam.blogspot.com/p/product-review.html
http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/plexus-worldwide-product-reviews.html
What made them a success no longer exists.
http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/drink-pink-and-shrink-really.html
THE COMPANY
Clinical Study: Really?
http://thepinkdrinkscam.blogspot.com/p/clinical-study.html
Diamonds don’t always sparkle….
http://thepinkdrinkscam.blogspot.com/p/dirty-diamonds-and-their-hidden-secrets.html
Angela Weeks said: “But please note there are NO healthcare supplements that are FDA approved. This is because the FDA does not approve or disapprove dietary supplements.”
Wrong and wrong. It is merely over-the-counter supplements that are not FDA approved. There is no reason why a supplement could not be approved for medical purposes if the petitioner seeking approval provides sufficient scientific evidence (rigorous clinical trials) to support any claims of benefits. There are in fact FDA-approved versions of B vitamins and omega-3’s, and the FDA has approved various health claims pertaining to vitamins and minerals and foods that are rich in them.
http://www.fda.gov/SiteIndex/ucm108351.htm
Angela Weeks said: “…the FDA letter you referenced. I think you presented this information in a way that could be misleading, The three products referenced had wording such as “will” instead of “may” which is considered a medical claim, and not permitted by the FDA.”
Wrong again. Using weasel words like “may” instead of “will” makes no difference whatsoever. The mere implication of a health/medical claim is sufficient to be a violation of US law.
Angela Weeks said: “I feel perhaps your explanation was somewhat suggestive that there was a safety issue involved with the products, which is not the case.”
How could you possibly arrive at that ridiculous conclusion? Lazy Man said nothing ever remotely implying that it was a safety issue. The gist is that the company violated U.S. law by illegally marketing their product(s) as medicinal agents. However, a company that willfully violates U.S. law with regard to efficacy claims should not be trusted when it comes to product safety. I would never ingest anything made by one of these skeezy, dishonest, morally-bankrupt MLM schemes. Why would anyone?
Angela weeks said: “False testimonies: I am sure, as with any company, there are some that may be exaggerating their personal, professional or financial successes. I have not personally experienced this with anyone that I hsve interacted with as a part of Plexus. I can share with you that my husband and I have experienced many rewards since begining Plexus…weight loss, decrease in blood pressure resulting in being taken off medication to treat this condition, and decrease in GERD symptoms to name s few. I also have a large customer base (not team members or Plexus distributors) that have experienced relief from symptoms they have suffered for years.”
Wow! Just F-ing wow!!! Is your hypocrisy filter broken? You opened by denying that people are making false, exaggerated, and otherwise illegal medicinal claims about the products and then you proceed to make those very claims. As a Plexus “ambassador”, you can’t go around claiming, or even remotely implying, that Plexus products can relieve hypertension or alleviate GERD symptoms and other chronic diseases. Now do you understand why there’s a problem? Probably not, sadly.
Lazyman, thank you for commenting back (nicely :)). I won’t debate your responsesto the point of exhaustion, but I will say that my lack of articulation in my first comment left the door open for rebut. I can most certianly appreciate the skepticism, but simply have not found your concerns to be valid in my personal experience with Plexus. For what it’s worth, I researched the products and company for months before deciding to become a customer. As a “customer”, I feel confident in my statements regarding my personal experience with results from use of Plexus products. I don’t feel that I made any medical claim stating anyone could expect the same, this is just my personal experience. I eat healthy and excercise, and agree this is the cornerstone of good health. I believe Plexus simply allows my body to perform closer to the manner it was intended. Having more then 20 years of experience in the healthcare industry from direct patient care to administration to participating in FDA clinical trials, I understand the FDA guidelines regarding the approval of both procedures and medications. Plexus did not intend for their products to be considered medication, therefor did not seek such FDA approval. I simply don’t believe there was any ill intent in the marketing of their products. Again, I appreciate your commentary on this topic, but in all honesty, did feel it was more of an attack on the company verses a fair review. I would just hate for someone to make a negative decision about a product that has the potential to improve their health because they read an article that only focused on certain aspects. Thank you for allowing me to be a part of your discussion.
Dear Vogal, I am sorry my comments seemed to have made you so angry. That certianly was not my intent. I choose not to engage in conversation reflective of your response. Being nice is a choice, so I choose nice. Hope you have a good day.
Trying to enjoy the holiday, but I think is an extremely weak response.
You glossed over the FTC endorsement guidelines that require you NOT to make testimonials. Once you sign up to be an ambassador you simply are not allowed to repeat any such claims.
Vogel was justified in his anger. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth saying that it isn’t medicine, but then making the illegal medical claims that get the company in trouble.
And you didn’t address your failings to understand pyramid schemes at all.
Angela Weeks said: “For what it’s worth, I researched the products and company for months before deciding to become a customer.”
It’s worth precisely nothing. Apparently you don’t know how to conduct valid research and you’re impervious to facts and logic.
Angela Weeks said: “As a “customer”, I feel confident in my statements regarding my personal experience with results from use of Plexus products. I don’t feel that I made any medical claim stating anyone could expect the same, this is just my personal experience.”
You’re not a customer. By your own admission you’re a Plexus distributor, and with that there are legal obligations which you have shirked with careless disregard. Stating a therapeutic claim veiled as “personal experience” does not exonerate you. The FTC guidelines make it very clear that you are not allowed to promote the product using atypical cases, whether they’re your own or someone else’s. They must reflect typical user experiences.
It is clear that you’re purposely trying to obfuscate the cause-effect relationship that you allege exists between taking the product and experiencing medical benefits. However, it’s obvious that what you intended to convey was that you achieved therapeutic benefits by taking Plexus products; and that is an illegal (and misleading) act.
And yours is not an isolated violation either. The internet is rife with such claims by Plexus distributors. Here are but a couple of examples
https://www.facebook.com/skinnywithpink/posts/324201334456615:0
http://www.plexuschangeyourlife.com/fibromyalgia-chronic-pain/
So you are either ignorant of the law, or you know where the legal bright line sits and you leap over it anyway. If it were merely a question of ignorance, you would have owned up to your transgression already, but instead you doubled down. That means you’re just plain dishonest.
Would you rather people think you’re just plain dumb or just plain dishonest? Take your pick. It can only be one or the other.
Angela weeks said: “Plexus did not intend for their products to be considered medication, therefor did not seek such FDA approval.”
Correction: Plexus knows that their products don’t have any medicinal benefits, so of course they chose not to seek FDA approval for said purposes. It’s bleedin’ obvious because if their products showed even a faint glimmer of hope for treating any medical condition or symptom, the ROI from gaining FDA approval would be enormous. Let’s not pretend that Plexus is anything more than a cookie-cutter copy of every other snakeoil MLM scam past and present. They use duplicitous ignorant people like you to illegally market their BS overpriced products as medicinal agents to lure rubes into buying them and, you hope, joining your pyramid scheme.
Angela Weeks said: Dear Vogal, I am sorry my comments seemed to have made you so angry. That certianly was not my intent. I choose not to engage in conversation reflective of your response. Being nice is a choice, so I choose nice. Hope you have a good day.”
I’m not angry. I love disassembling the flawed logic of posts like yours. It helps keep my wits sharp. I know exactly what your intent was — to whitewash criticism so that you can enrich yourself financially – you were hardly subtle.
You opt to go silent now not because you choose to let my facts and counterarguments go unchallenged, but because you are utterly incapable of rebutting anything I’ve written. Don’t act cowardly and then pretend to own the moral high ground.
Ripping people off with BS snakeoil and pyramid schemes is the antithesis of nice. Always beware of the smiling con artist.
Happy 4oJ. Go sit on a Roman candle!
See how easy it is? You just lay around in your PJ’s and make money!
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6t0BqNB86Y%5D
By the way, that was my diamond upline you heard on the call.
Oh, and let’s not forget the life changing testimonials!
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVvLy2zo5Hw%5D
I mean after that who on earth would NOT join?
And of course… MORE deception!
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyOzaS1-yc8%5D
OH! And then talking out of both sides of your mouth! This lovely diamond has recently been trained as a coach with John Maxwell and has launched a new company called Intentional Impact For A Change where you can pay her for training to make your plexus business better and her paycheck FATTER!
How is THAT for ethics, integrity and spewing out of both sides of your mouth?
Still think diamonds sparkle?
Thanks for the informative and well written article. My wife was considering Plexus given that several of her friends have been raving about it on Facebook. It’s clear that the main incentive is money. I don’t doubt that some have lost weight with the product, but it’s probably more of the placebo effect versus anything else. That in itself isn’t bad, but I am concerned about the long term health benefits from a product with so many “natural” ingredients that no one can really identify.
I don’t suppose Roger has an accuracy problem with the name “Affordable Care Act”.
Rob Man, let’s keep the topic on Plexus.
I can appreciate this website as well as all the other websites that expose these scams for what they really are. The sad thing about this is that there was a local news anchor who left a great job in order to push this crap! I can’t wrap my mind around it. I understand wanting to get healthy but it just seems like an oxymoron by putting chemicals into your body. I go to her Facebook page and she has posted pictures and webisodes of Plexus start up meetings, with thousands of people in attendance who are chanting nonsense foolishly , she has also posted pics of her “team” who are “fired up” as she puts it. I used to enjoy watching her in the mornings and thought this bright, astute, educated young woman is definitely going somewhere. I was sorely dissapointed when I discovered that the reason why she had left her job was to become a scammer while trying to project an image that she had another calling in life which was to help others get healthy. I have an utter disdain for people like her that use their public platform in order to destroy others. I used to respect women in journalism like her who work hard to build their professional portfolios despite some of the challenges they might face. I have lost all respect for her and everything she ever stood for. There are people like my friend who would kill for the opportunity of a lifetime to work for a major news station. I just don’t get how educated people will forgo all logic and reasoning only to get sucked into this insidious industry… *sigh**
I jut want to say that I had vertigo and daily migraines for 7 and a half years, I doctor after doctor, I took 16 pills a day and got injections. I started using plexus because another person claimed got rid of her vertigo. After 5 days my vertigo and migraines didn’t exist. Scam or no scam their products work and I’ve helped many people in my vertigo support group find relief as well.
Sorry Melanie, No, Your MLM Health Product Doesn’t “Work.”
Melanie, do you expect people to believe your claim at face value with not a stitch of proof, even when we know that MLMs are notorious for lying about exactly this sort of thing? You may as well be claiming that you met Bigfoot or got probed by aliens.
I,in no way, support this or any other MLM scheme. I have “tried” one, I can’t remember the name but it was the same people that owned Amway. As you have guessed, it didn’t work out to well. Now to the reason I am writing. I have, in the last 6 months, had Bariatric surgery and was recommended by my doctor to take a probiotic. It just so happens that a friend of mine started selling Plexus recently and wanted me to use hers. After I find out any friend sells anything that remotely “smells” like an MLM, I always try and do research on it. Unfortunately, I have another that’s “deep” into Nerium with the “free” Lexus and cannot be persuaded differently. Well, after reading your blog, I wanted to check out my medicine. Now, my own doctor recommended this kind, http://www.dietdirect.com/bariatric-advantage-chewable-probiotic-supplements.html?CAWELAID=120170500000013179&CAGPSPN=pla&catargetid=120170500000013390&cadevice=c&gclid=CJiVx9LDhcYCFdgUgQodG2YAYw, and it’s what I take. After reading you’re blog, I went to my website where I order it and it also says the same, “These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration”. Now I’m worried if I should be concerned with what I’m taking.
My comment on November 12 was in response to Angela Weeks comment on July 4, 2015 at 1:01 am. But maybe she discovered the truth like the rest of us and ran!
Just saw this on Facebook pushed by a friend’s wife who just got into the Plexus scam. If this isn’t making illegal claims of health benefits, I’m not sure what is. And this is from June of this year. But the worst part is she happily feeds the slim shakes and probiotics to her 4 year old son ‘for his eczema and food sensitivities’.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep0fJp6e2xg
She also just posted:
Hi, my name is Thiamine, and if you have hypothyroid/Hashimoto’s disease, You need to listen…. I have been known to relieve lingering fatigue and brain fog that plagues you thyroid people. Problem is, I’m not easily absorbed. However, did you know that in the presence of aloe, my absorption rate (and other vitamins) is increased by more than 300%?!
Tired of feeling exhausted and brain fogged? XFactor multivitamin contains a patented aloe blend (from both the gel and the leaf) that increases the absorption of vitamins and nutrients and delivers them right to the cellular level! Plus, XFactor is now fully methylated! ?#?plexusXfactor? ???
message me for details. I now only take this one vitamin and my Pee is clear, meaning I absorb them!! I do not have to take many vitamins and worry if they are absorbed!!
And:
Have you been on a job interview lately? Did it go anything like this?
Imagine being in a JOB INTERVIEW and asking for the following:
1. I want 15% commission on everything I sell up to $499, and 25% commission on everything $500 and above.
2. I expect to earn a $100 bonus when 3 people join me.
3. I want to buy the products at Wholesale prices every month.
4. I expect you to provide me with a website, FREE online training, plus training events in Maui, Florida, and other amazing places around the U.S…paid for by the company.
5. When I bring in and train new Salespeople I’d like 5% of their sales.
6. I want the opportunity to rapidly advance to the top of the company.
7. I want profit sharing starting my first day, and I want you to give my co-workers and me 50% of what the company makes EVERY MONTH!
8. When I do well, I expect praise and recognition, plus I want access to the TOP leaders.
9. I want my spouse, family, and friends to work here.
10. Oh, I want to set my own schedule so I can work around my family’s schedule.
11. I want a free Lexus once I reach a certain level in the company.
12. One last thing…once I reach the top I want to re-enter as a new employee under myself so I can do it all over again.
So, when can I start?
After the manager recovers from shock, he/she will laugh and say, “You CAN’T be serious?! You’ll NEVER find that opportunity ANYWHERE!!”
Well guess what, Friends?
I HAVE found that opportunity with Plexus!!!
Message me for more info!!
There’s always someone that wants to rip a part companies, people, and products. However, where have you ever seen a perfect company, person, or product??!! It doesn’t exist! We all fall short…personally, reading these blogs amuses me. People make up delusions in their minds to make everything bad about sonething, but never highlight any good. First of all, yes, I am a Plexus Ambassador, BUT I was a customer first. Many customers choose after a length of time to join the business aspect for the wholesale price and to help others. Sure, money is involved, but honestly, the fact that people who are suffering find relief from ailments that have been making it hard to live without just existing is the BEST! No, we cannot make medical claims. We can share our personal experiences as our 1st amendment right. People that know me, know my health concerns and have personally witnessed things get better for me. People can claim it’s a placebo or it’s whatever, but at this point I feel better. I’m not high up in the company…but I can be. I have faith in this company and its products because I have personally witnessed what it’s all about. It’s easy to be a skeptic until it hits home. I wasted 4 months of my life being a skeptic and suffering in my own misery before trying the products. I’m happy with my decision. My life and many other lives have been changed for the better. Go ahead! Ridicule, call it a scam, call it a waste of time and money, or whatever other term you can come up with, but just realize that Plexus has a solid foundation and is not going anywhere. The products work and are worth every penny! Have a great day!
There are always paid advocates of MLM/pyramid schemes who attempt to justify the attempt to rip-off consumers with general statements like “Not surprised” instead of addressing the specific complaints in the article.
It’s interesting how happy people are to be snake oil salesmen in these schemes. Well, not too interesting, because we see that they are getting paid for it. It would be really interesting to see them say the same thing about Slim Fast, Centrum, or a product at a drugstore where they aren’t getting paid.
Also, “Not Surprised”, as a Plexus Ambassador, you essentially give up your 1st amendment right to share your personal experiences with the product if they don’t fit the FTC Endorsement Guidelines.
If you want to give up your status as a paid endorser, you can give your experience. You can’t use that non-typical, non-scientific-proven story to sell product and line your pockets with money.
Love the claims of a “Free Lexus” earned at certain levels. Plexus pays $500 per month. If you have priced a Lexus lately, good luck getting one for $500 per month. My wifes is $850 per month, so guess who pays the $350 per month??? So its not “free”. Plus if your sales fall for 2 months, you lose the $500. But guess what else?? The $500 per month in income taxable. STILL SOUND FREE???
If you say to a plexus person that you did lose weight they say weight loss is just a side effect for some people Plexus about getting healthy. REALLY Plexus? If it is about getting healthy why are you encouraging people to put chemicals in perfectly good water. Getting healthier is not that hard. Be more active, eat less pizza and drink more water.
I have a “friend”on Facebook that just made a post on a new plexus product she is selling she says it’s great. It is a sugar and starch inhibitor. Why would you take a pill to stop the break down of sugar and starch? Why are you eating thing you think your body should not break down? Makes zero sense.
I am amazed, what products would someone be purchasing to have their monthly costs be in excess of $200? It’s no wonder they hold meetings in Hawaii. The top few are living off of the lower levels in the pyramid. How do these ‘ambassadors’ sleep at night?
The complainant’s order ******** *ated 10/16/2015 has been refunded, $219.01.
The complainant’s order ******** dated 11/16/2015 has been refunded, $218.74
The complainant’s order ******** dated 12/16/2015 has been refunded, $223.06.
Vogel,
Thank you for your passion towards debunking these misinformed/misanthropic people’s arguments. It is a true pleasure to read your comments along with lazy’s and get a true understanding of how to support actual arguments. I would love to be introduced to a blog if you have one, because I really enjoy your approach.
P.S. Your writing has made me have to google at least 30 words, and is teaching me new diction! Because of you I’m going to start teaching my friends how to write with better diction for a nominal fee and then they will go find a couple of friends and teach them in which they will charge a fee and give part of it to me and then…oops I’ve said too much.
That’s really nice of you to say Geoff. Thanks! Glad to hear you found value in my comments. Lazy Man has provided a great community service by making this forum available and putting in countless hours into his excellent articles and analyses. No plans for my own blog but if I ever do start one, I’ll let y’all know.
I’ve looked over a lot of MLM products through the years, even tried a few (Juice+, one year, waste of money). Plexus has been running wild through our church so, even though there was no real evidence it would work, I tried it faithfully for 90 days. Nothing. No change in weight, BP, etc. Why? There is nothing scientific about the product that would make it do what Plexis claims.
PLEXUS WORLDWIDE KNOWINGLY AND INTENTIONALLY EXPOSED PEOPLE TO LEAD!
http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/warning-letters-health-fraud.html
I took the time to read through most of the 35 comments. I just want to put my 2cents in. Only because I am constantly bothered on Facebook to sign up for Plexus……everything is about money, the car and how to sign up others under you. I read the pay scale and I do not believe it for even a minute !!! Nope! The Plexus Lexus IS the way they entice you to sign up and use the product. Nothing is healthy or very safe. When you ask them what is in it and how it works they say “they’ll get back to you”…..
And Vogel: I’m sorry you are just an Ambassador! You haven’t obviously been in long enoygh to move up so you are still being lead by the blind….. I have ailments and they all said “it will
Fix me! Save me!” Umm they are not doctors so they cannot say or do that! 65% of the Woman I see selling it are over weight housewives needing a way to earn a quick dollar from home and dreaming about the Lexus! No way! Plus I like My Benz! I bought it! I own it! They can keep their placebos! Oh and the money back guarantee is a joke because I bought the pink drink, it made me sick and nope….. Couldn’t Return it! Never give them Your banking info ever!!!
This company will fail someday and all those poor followers will fall with it! It’s already banned in a few other countries and on Amazon! Yes Amazon folks!
One last thing i find funny…. It seems to be huge out of Arkansas and Texas, a little down south, I looked them up! They are based out of Scottsdale, AZ where I live! No one In Arizona uses any of that shit!!! Ever!!! Every time a Emerald or Diamond gets a Lexus, they don’t even have a Lexus dealer in Arkansas! Geez…..we have at least 12 here! Yet no one here is ever getting promoted to get a Plexus Lexus???? Yes I asked quite a few dealers if they get the Plexus clan and they said no! So again….. I feel
Sorry for those that didn’t take the time to research Plexus Iike I did! They are awful!!!
And Plexusbrainwashedmywife : you are correct about the cost of a Lexus! They start in the mid forty’s. That’s no $500 car payment! Also do they pay the extra money it will cost to insure it!??? The entire thing is a scam! I actually saw a lady on FB get her “second Lexus” for what?? She didn’t need it! But again she thinks they are free! Now she had two cat payments to worry about!
Angela Weeks: “I researched the products and company for months before deciding to become a customer. As a “customer”,”
This is literally just explaining the pyramid scheme. You even put “customer” in quotes. This is because you are trying to say that you, as a seller, are actually a customer. Implying that when you recruit new sellers, you are “making sales” or “making customers”.
It is an illegitimate business model that winds up being progressively worse for everyone the more it spreads. That’s the point. The first people who get in on it make a lot and people down the road get sucked into it. And it tries to blur the line between supply and demand.
A legitimate business model doesn’t spread like a virus. People can be recruited for an organization for sales, sure, but they are aren’t continually placed underneath other sellers, nor are the people recruited expected to simultaneously be recruiters. Hence the term “multi level”.
A great example of something that is NOT a scam would be Cutco, which is a legitimately good product that is a single level sales system.
I couldn’t see when this review was written. Yes its true in Australia that the product was banned. It had an ingredient it it that caused false positives in a drug test. The product was redeveloped without that particular product and is now available for sale in the US, but not in Australia as yet. It and the other products manufactured by Plexus are undergoing TGA registration as we speak.
There have never been any claims that I am aware of where people have suffered. For those products where there is a warning it is stated in the product information and every ambassador (all 350000)know what products can’t be taken and under what circumstances.
Plexus is no scam. What other company offers a 60 day money back guarantee that you know of? They have a hybrid unilateral compensation plan that pays all ambassadors the same amount per pay point on a weekly and monthly basis irrespective of whether you have just joined or your a top ranking ambassador. In other words you get paid for your efforts.
The value is in the products. There are too many testimonials in place where it has so obviously worked for people. I personally have had success and people I know personally have had success. There are mlm’s that are scams and yep I’ve been bitten before but this is, and I say it again is not a scam.
You all should have faith. These products work quite well if you are persistent and consistent and can follow a few simple instructions.
Instead of bashing a product that you know nothing about, why don’t you all take the plunge. If you don ‘t have any results you can get your money back, unconditionally. You have nothing to lose but weight.
My dear Howard, how long have you been with Plexus? How was it marketed to you? As a health product or weight loss product?
Now before you go running YOUR mouth on something YOU know NOTHING about, I wouldn’t be posting comments like. “Instead of bashing a product that you know nothing about, why don’t you all take the plunge. If you don ‘t have any results you can get your money back, unconditionally. You have nothing to lose but weight”
WRONG!
DON’T YOU DARE TELL ME I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS! I know WAY more than I ever wanted to!
I’ve never bashed a company in my life until Plexus. Their lack of integrity, from their CEO to their diamond ambassadors, is unbelievable.
You see it was marketed to me as a weight loss product in 2013. See it here: http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/drink-pink-and-shrink-really.html
And that clinical study, you believe it too? http://thepinkdrinkscam.blogspot.ca/p/clinical-study.html
The diamonds rose to their ranks quickly because people SAW WEIGHT LOSS RESULTS with the three day trials. Then, they didn’t. and it became about health. The diamonds were deceptive, cunning and down right lied about the efficacy of the product in 2014. Yes, Sonya Dudley, Sara Marble and Helen MccFadden all knew the truth and lied to keep those checks which dropped as much as their recruiting and ethics, to all time lows. I don’t know how they sleep at night. If they can look you in the eye and say that is a lie, then they are dirtier than I thought.
I did try Plexus, as did 39 of my friends and it worked for none. One of my diabetic customers got WORSE.
And that is only ONE part of my story!
MLM DECEPTION!
[youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyOzaS1-yc8&w=560&h=315%5D
Howard Trott said, “There have never been any claims that I am aware of where people have suffered. For those products where there is a warning it is stated in the product information and every ambassador (all 350000)know what products can’t be taken and under what circumstances.”
Really Howard? Have you not read the previous comments on this thread, or even tried typing in anything on google? I’m wondering how deep your head is in the sand on this one…
Howard Trott said, “Plexus is no scam. What other company offers a 60 day money back guarantee that you know of?”
First of all, money back guarantee does not make something not a scam. This is a faulty correlation because one does not have anything to do with the other. If I were to tell you that my horse manure skin mask has a 180 day return policy if you don’t see positive results in your skin, would you call my horse manure skin mask legitimate?
Second of all, have you ever tried returning the product? There are very strict rules, and depending on what type of member you are, you may have a tough time making that return. You can view their return policies here, http://www.plexusworldwide.com/products/guarantee, and you will see the differences. For the preferred customers, they are not allowed to return the product the first 14 days…for the retail customers, they have to give it back to the ambassador and then the ambassador is responsible for the return (that sounds impossible as the ambassador will do whatever they can to not take the return more than likely), for ambassadors they only have 5 DAYS (what the heck!??! why???), and also the ambassadors are responsible for issuing the refund and will later be reimbursed by Plexus…if the ambassador doesn’t have the money…the customer is screwed.
Howard Trott said, “They have a hybrid unilateral compensation plan that pays all ambassadors the same amount per pay point on a weekly and monthly basis irrespective of whether you have just joined or your a top ranking ambassador. In other words you get paid for your efforts.”
What the what!??!? What does that compensation plan even mean? I dare you to try and explain it…All you described after that was exactly when the people get paid, but not how they get paid…this is all perfectly vague nonsense.
Howard Trott said, “The value is in the products. There are too many testimonials in place where it has so obviously worked for people.”
Did you read the article? LM makes it perfectly clear why testimonials are worthless, and you have already gone over the fact that the products are dangerous…
Howard Trott said, “I personally have had success and people I know personally have had success. There are mlm’s that are scams and yep I’ve been bitten before but this is, and I say it again is not a scam.”
That’s nice…I too have had success with my horse manure mask, and so have all my other high ranking members…they are perfect for extracting dollars from suckers. How is it not a scam? You have revealed absolutely nothing substantial. It would seem you are keen to repeating your mistakes.
Howard Trott said, “You all should have faith. These products work quite well if you are persistent and consistent and can follow a few simple instructions.”
No, we should have logic and reason when it comes to business and our health. Faith is the last thing that we should have unless we are out of options (clearly not pertinent to this situation). Faith is what gets people killed regularly when not utilizing the science we have worked so hard for.
Howard Trott said, “Instead of bashing a product that you know nothing about, why don’t you all take the plunge. If you don ‘t have any results you can get your money back, unconditionally. You have nothing to lose but weight.”
This again, is not a substantial point. I also know nothing about c4, but I’m not going to stand next to it after someone yells, “FIRE IN THE HOLE”. That is not true that you can get your money back unconditionally (there seems to be many conditions). There are many alternatives to losing weight that seem to be cost effective in comparison, and not as dangerous. A cursory search on google will show you plenty of free workouts and diet plans in which you can select the one that works best for you.
Michael says:
November 18, 2015
at 5:14 am
Just
saw this on Facebook pushed by a friend’s wife who just got into the
Plexus scam. If this isn’t making illegal claims of health benefits,
I’m not sure what is. And this is from June of this year. But the
worst part is she happily feeds the slim shakes and probiotics to her
4 year old son ‘for his eczema and food sensitivities’.
She
also just posted:
Hi,
my name is Thiamine, and if you have hypothyroid/Hashimoto’s disease,
You need to listen…. I have been known to relieve lingering fatigue
and brain fog that plagues you thyroid people. Problem is, I’m not
easily absorbed. However, did you know that in the presence of aloe,
my absorption rate (and other vitamins) is increased by more than
300%?!
Tired of feeling exhausted and brain fogged? XFactor multivitamin
contains a patented aloe blend (from both the gel and the leaf) that
increases the absorption of vitamins and nutrients and delivers them
right to the cellular level! Plus, XFactor is now fully methylated!
?#?plexusXfactor? ???
message me for details. I now only take this one vitamin and my Pee is
clear, meaning I absorb them!! I do not have to take many vitamins and
worry if they are absorbed!!
This is the type of material that should be sent to the FDA! [email protected]
A woman scammed, I’m sure you were scammed, you see, I can’t stand a f**king liar. And you ma’am are a f**king liar, you know jackshit about Plexus.
Newsflash honey, there ARE NO SUPPLEMENTS OUT THAT ARE FDA APPROVED! Plexus does not go around saying that they are FDA approved either. EVERYTHING YOU SEE AT GNC not FDA approved.
The guy’s testimonial you saw on FB. Have you ever f**king thought in that little pea sized brain of yours that maybe, just maybe it does work for him? I have read all of your posts and what I see from it is. “I failed at this, waaaaah, I didn’t make any money waaaaah I suck at life so now I will bash the product, because I was a shitty saleswoman” Get real lady. How many of these blogs do you go to and bash Plexus?
I had to edit much of Theresa’s language. It’s unfortunate that MLM companies allow what appears to be obvious distributors to act so irresponsibly.
Actually THERE ARE SUPPLEMENTS THAT FDA APPROVED. Sorry for the caps, but I felt the need to scream back at Theresa so that she gets it.
Here’s a list from the FDA’s website.
Most people would be familiar with calcium and vitamin D for osteoporosis. No one can argue that calcium and vitamin D are not supplements as classified by the FDA.
I think you are confused about the different layers of FDA approval.
There appear to be FDA approved health claims for supplements, but I don’t see Plexus products anywhere on the list. Let’s turn the question around and ask why there are no Plexus products on the list?
Lazy Man, it’s okay. She probably knows the truth and is trying to find a way to justify the money spent, lies told and friendships lost because of this scam.
Theresa, I’m sure you haven’t read all my posts here because if you had your lack of intellect & professional caliber wouldn’t be quite so obvious. Therefore, I’m not going to waste my time with you or the fact that the FDA has an ongoing case with Plexus. Do your homework honey.
One more thing Lazy Man, I hope you sent her reply to Plexus so they can see the quality of their representation.
I didn’t. Maybe you can forward it on to them?
The funny part about this is, it was never about Plexus being FDA approved. It was about compliance and sending those “comments” about what Plexus helps with to the FDA. I send them every day LOL. Theresa’s reading comprehension, or lack thereof, must be frustrating for her.
Theresa ranted: “I can’t stand a f**king liar. And you ma’am are a f**king liar, you know jackshit about Plexus. Newsflash honey, there ARE NO SUPPLEMENTS OUT THAT ARE FDA APPROVED!”
Ugh! Rude, abrasive, and misleading. Technically, there are no FDA-approved “supplements” because “supplements” are by legal definition products that are not intended for the treatment, cure, prevention, or mitigation of diseases or their symptoms. If a product is marketed as a cure/treatment/preventive measure, then it is a “drug” by legal definition (i.e., the designation is based on intended use), and is either one that is marketed legally (i.e., with FDA approval) or illegally (i.e., without FDA approval). Plexus falls in the latter category because it is a supplement being marketed for medical purposes without FDA approval.
Omega-3 FA is widely sold as a “supplement”, and for such products, no health claims are permitted. However, one particular omega-3 formulation (Epanova) has been approved for medical use because Astra Zeneca went through the rigorous process of demonstrating efficacy in high-quality randomized controlled clinical trials. The moment it was approved, it ceased being a “supplement” in the eyes of the law, and became a legally marketed drug.
http://www.astrazeneca-us.com/media/press-releases/Article/20140506-epanova-press-release
The same opportunity is open to any supplement manufacturer that can conclusively prove the efficacy of their products. MLMs like Plexus do not seek such approval because their products lack efficacy. They simply bypass the FDA approval process (i.e., the law of the land) and market their products illegally.
Additionally, as Lazy Man pointed out, the FDA allows a variety of qualified health claims for certain generic nutrients that are widely sold in supplement form; e.g., calcium/osteoporosis, folate/neural tube defects, soluble fiber/heart disease, etc.
Theresa has no apparent knowledge whatsoever about the distinction between supplements and drugs, or the relevant U.S. laws. Sadly that doesn’t stop Theresa from blindly pontificating and acting like a hostile sociopath. Well done Plexus! Another day, another step deeper into the pit of shame.
I don’t get why people will go to the trouble of finding an ambassador and overpaying for the Plexus vitamins. I buy high quality vitamins from the natural health food store. They are cheaper than the plexus vitamins and a better quality.
I also think there are claims that should be proven by studies. Does the pink drink really reduce soda cravings? Or is it just the placebo effect? By the way people lose weight drinking the pink drink because they are replacing soda with pink water. Would it help someone like me who only drinks water anyway?
The carb blocker product really annoys me. Why do you need to block 48% of the carbs you ate. How about just eat 48% less bread. This product should have to have studies done on it.
I’ll tell ya right up front that I’m a Plexus Ambassador and proud of it. No that out of the way ….
I’ve read most of these post in their entirety but some are just so uninformed I couldn’t make it all the way through them.
Most provide some accurate information, some provide inaccurate information and some incomplete information.
Now I’m trying to decide if it’s worth my time to try to educate those of you who don’t understand Plexus’version MLM, or are prejudice Plexus products specifically or the supplement market in general.
All I can see from my reading is that some how Lazy Man got butt hurt about Plexus and it’s products and MLM marketing in general. One must ask what is his motivation to spend almost a year on a campaign intent on damaging Plexus, it’s products and it’s Ambassadors.
Got a response to that Lazy Man?
Thanks for the comment Papa Hoover. I appreciate the transparency.
Speaking of transparency, I wrote at the very beginning of the article that a reader asked me to write Plexus. I believe they considered me a trustworthy resource given my other articles covering MLM. So I’m not sure why you’d suggest I’d be “butt hurt” about Plexus.
In my coverage of MLM companies, typically distributors (or Ambassadors like yourself) embarrass themselves by spouting some erroneous nonsense like you just did.
If you see any inaccurate information, I implore you to state specifically what it is. I strive to provide the most accurate article I can.
Got a response to that Papa Hoover?
Papa Hoover said, “I’ll tell ya right up front that I’m a Plexus Ambassador and proud of it.”
Why are you proud of that? Can you give us some details, since LM made a pretty decent case that nobody should be proud of being in Plexus (or any MLM for that matter)?
Papa Hoover said, “Most provide some accurate information, some provide inaccurate information and some incomplete information.”
If you are going to write an accusatory statement like that, can you back it up with any specific details? This statement alone is essentially worthless blabber.
Papa Hoover said, “Now I’m trying to decide if it’s worth my time to try to educate those of you who don’t understand Plexus’version MLM, or are prejudice Plexus products specifically or the supplement market in general.”
Again, instead of leading into a specific point that you are trying to make, why not just make the point? This vague nonsense just makes you look foolish. This is about as useful as me saying, I know where treasure is, it could help you out, but I’m not sure if you are willing to work for it…
Papa Hoover said, “All I can see from my reading is that some how Lazy Man got butt hurt about Plexus and it’s products and MLM marketing in general. One must ask what is his motivation to spend almost a year on a campaign intent on damaging Plexus, it’s products and it’s Ambassadors.”
It would seem this statement can be reversed, and you have become “butt hurt” after reading a person’s research that disputes your products and your company. You have made no substantial points to refute his research, and instead have made yourself look small and weak by formulating vague and meaningless junk about his wrongness.
His motivations are quite clear that he is a consumer advocate, and tries to prevent people from falling for schemes. To this day I have not seen any evidence to dispute this intention. You can read about it in his articles and in his about section. If you did as much reading as you claimed, it wouldn’t hurt to try and cover all of your bases before writing more meaningless junk.
First off to Geoff: Not sure where you’re coming from and why you feel a need to insult me or cover Lazy Man’s back with such a vengeance. I just hope you won’t be disappointed by the fact that in the future I’ll be ignoring your comments and not responding to them.
Lazy Man: First off I’d like to say I do understand someone’s need for consumer advocacy as long as it’s done responsibly and without malice (No I’m not implying anything). Many children’s lives have been saved by CA’s pointing out poor design is child related products. As a parent, grand-parent and great-grand parent I truly do appreciate that.
Ok back to Plexus. Specifically that example in the compensation plan.
I have to admit that the first time I saw that example I thought “no thanks this is just another pyramid scheme”. Then I started asking questions. The real intent of the example is to document the point system and how it works. The biggest problem I have with the example is it doesn’t say anything about Preferred Customers. I’d also like to note that the example is only 7 levels deep because no one gets paid on points beyond 7 levels.
You’ve carefully documented the theoretical amount of money, $327,900, that was spent for the top person to earn $15,902.25. What you didn’t mention, I assume it was a simple oversight, was that Levels 1 thru 6 in the example also had income. I don’t have the time to do the detail calculations but for discussion the income at each of the Levels 1 thru 6 would be approximately 1/3 of the level above it. I think that you’d agree that would result in total paid income significantly higher than the approximately $16k at the top. I’d also like to point out that theoretically, Levels 1 thru 4 had incomes that exceed the 100 PV required to stay commission qualified.
That’s a nice introduction into a few points I’d like to make about Ambassador requirements.
Ambassadors are not required to buy or use Plexus products. (Although I think they should) They are however required to maintain 100 PV which could be accomplished through sales to Preferred Customers. They are also required to pay an annual membership fee of $34.95, which allows them to buy product at wholesale prices, provides them a replicated version of the Plexus Worldwide website under their name and a “back office” which allows them to track orders, qualification levels, personal and organizational volumes and other valuable information. If you understand anything about Cloud computing costs today I think you’d have to agree that’s a very reasonable price.
Many Ambassadors are only Ambassadors by name and have no intention of every selling product but are willing to pay the $34.95 to receive products at wholesale prices. If they maintain 100 PV, the $34.95 will be more than recovered in savings on their 3rd order.
Personally, I don’t recruit Ambassadors. Of the 5 Ambassadors I have in my organization, 3 signed up just to receive whole pricing much like Sam’s Club or Cost Co, the other 2 were originally Preferred Customers who liked the products so well they decided they wanted to try selling. (Imagine that! I did the same thing BTW.) So why don’t I recruit Ambassadors. At my current PV level, on average, I’m receiving approximately $25 per Preferred Customer vs. approximately $15 per Ambassador per month. Just seems like smart business to me.
Which leads me to my last comment for this post and back to the example in the compensation plan. Most Ambassadors that I’ve met so far have more than 3 Ambassadors and try to maintain a 50/50 mix of Ambassadors and Preferred Customers. If one extrapolates that 50/50 approach on top of the example provided in the compensation plan I think it’s easy to see that the person at the top possibly made closer to $25 – 30,000 in a month rather that the $16,000. Of course, the example and my extrapolation or only theoretical.
Well that’s enough for this post. Lazy Man I look forward to your comments and questions.
Thanks for reading.
From Geoff’s other comments on MLM articles, I think he’s very upset about consumers getting scammed. It’s a fair reaction to attack a perceived fraud with a vengeance. However, I’ll let him speak for himself.
I wrote the article over a year ago and haven’t reviewed it since.
There’s no malace on my part, I’m just giving my opinion about questions that readers ask me. It’s not like I seek out companies and attack them or accuse them of being pyramid schemes.
Who did you ask questions to determine if it was a pyramid scheme? I hope you didn’t ask biased source like Plexus. No MLM company is going to tell you, “Oh yeah, we’re running a pyramid scheme.” As the NY Times wrote, “In one of those letters, he quoted from a 2010 F.T.C. staff report that said that identifying pyramid schemes ‘entails a complex economic analysis.’ The report added that ‘there is no bright line disclosure that would help consumers identify a fraudulent pyramid from a legitimate [multilevel marketing company].'”
So could you please upload an image to the complex economic analysis you did to come to your conclusion?
I’m not sure what mean by “only 7 levels deep.” That’s a ton when 13 levels exceeds the population of the earth in this example.
I cited a specific example that came from Plexus’ literature. The literature did not give amounts of what the Levels 1 through 6 would earn. So, I attribute the oversight to the Plexus example. I wasn’t completely sure of the exact calculation and I didn’t want to guess wrongly. Feel free to attempt to compute the rest of the levels and present them here. I’d be very interested if you can show that everyone adds up to the $327,900 (or thereabouts assuming that calculation is correct). I think you’ll find that they don’t come close.
The main problem that I had with the example, is that it illustrates an example of someone with 100% recruitment of Ambassadors (as best I can tell). When I read the the FTC guidelines this looks like a pyramid scheme with no retail sales. I would think that Plexus would say that it would pay out $0 in this scenario because a majority of income would come from recruitment. It is my understanding that this is how Vemma now works after the FTC alleged them to be a pyramid scheme.
My issue is whether there is a commission qualification requirement that exists. If a plan says that a person can have that qualifcation waived by guessing next week’s lottery numbers, it can escape from people technically “requiring” purchases.
So what percentage of people are qualifying by preferred customers or buying products themselves? Where is Plexus disclosing this in the name full transparency? Who is auditing and certifying these numbers?
I’m not sure that IBM charges its salespeople to sell IBM products or for email (similar to a replicated website). Do you think Facebook’s costs of cloud computing comes to around $35 per year? I think they have around 1.6 billion users, so that would be around $56 billion dollars in costs. A quick look at their balance sheet shows it doesn’t come close. I believe that Tumblr and Medium offer free replicated websites to those who want them.
I think a reasonable price for the salespeople would be $0.
Papa said, “Many Ambassadors are only Ambassadors by name and have no intention of every selling product but are willing to pay the $34.95 to receive products at wholesale prices.”
As I mentioned on the outset it has been a year since I reviewed Plexus’ compensation plan, but many MLM plans call these people Preferred Customers. If an Ambassador does not intend to sell products and doesn’t actually sell products, Plexus should convert them to Preferred Customer status after one month.
It has been well-documented on such as #5 on the list on this Seeking Alpha article by MLM expert Robert FitzPatrick that this tactic is used to reclassify the failed Ambassadors. When we look at churn rates of distributors in MLM in general that are typically in the 60-90% a year, it becomes clear that these distributors aren’t simply in it for a long-term discount.
The signing up to receive a discount like Sam’s Club or Costco is a bad analogy because Sam’s Club and Costco doesn’t offer a business opportunity of opening up more Sam’s Club and Costco’s. No one says, “Sam’s Club is just another pyramid scheme” to recharacterize your initial reaction to Plexus.
I believe that, mathematically, most Ambassadors can not have far more than 3 Ambassadors. I understand that you might have met the ones who do have more… probably because the company wants to highlight those people.
If Preferred Customers are really a successful program, then why have any pyramid recruiting component at all? Why not just have a simple commission sales structure? If the commission sales structure is enticing, people will join the income opportunity without need of MLM at all.
I am confused. So Papa Hoover is telling us that he has 3 people under him that are not interested in selling just the discounts but in order to keep the discounts not only they have to pay $34 a year but spend at least $100 a month on products for themselves. That seems like a lot of money to spend a month on products that should last more than a month (although I am not sure how many vitamins come in a bottle or how many powder packets you get with the pink drink package) I know the vitamins I buy come with 60 in a bottle, about 2 months worth for about $25. I am just saying you would think after about 3 or 4 months they would have a huge stock pile and not see the need in maintaining being an ambassador. If they actually need to spend that amount money just getting a few products they need every month for personal use it sounds like it’s overpriced even with the discount.
I find that just about every MLM product is extremely overpriced even with the discount. I can’t think of an exception off the top of my head.
This is one of the reasons that attracted me to write about MLMs, which started when someone approached my wife to buy a $45 bottle of MonaVie juice. Years after 6000+ comments of coverage on my article, I’d find that court documents reviewed that the creator of the juice called it, “expensive flavored water.”
MonaVie at one point was touting how they had a billion dollars worth of revenue. We never did find out how many preferred customers were really interested in paying $40-ish for “expensive flavored water”, but presumably some had because MonaVie distributors claimed it cured cancer.
I should hope we can all agree that wasn’t very good for consumers. It my opinion that it was fraud on multiple levels.
So I ask myself, “Why would a legitimate company want to associate themselves with that model?” It simply doesn’t make any sense. No one ever has ever answered that question. I believe that’s because they don’t have a good answer.
Papa Hoover said, “First off to Geoff: Not sure where you’re coming from and why you feel a need to insult me or cover Lazy Man’s back with such a vengeance. I just hope you won’t be disappointed by the fact that in the future I’ll be ignoring your comments and not responding to them.”
I’m coming from a point of consumer protection much like Lazy Man. I’m not sure how that was not clear in my post.
I don’t understand how you can come out swinging on a public forum, and then play the moral superiority card as a weak excuse to ignore my points. Clearly, you make it up as you go along and just try to do what suits your needs. If you are going to sit here and say that I attacked you with a “vengeance”, after you came out and did nothing but spew drivel and call people “butt hurt”, then you are clearly a weak minded debater.
As for ignoring my post…that clearly goes without saying. You failed to address anything of significance and then played a weak victim card. You are not a strong advocate for Plexus, and you are not good at articulating any points to give cause for changing someone’s opinions.
Jen says: I am confused. So Papa Hoover is telling us that he has 3 people under him that are not interested in selling just the discounts but in order to keep the discounts not only they have to pay $34 a year but spend at least $100 a month on products for themselves.
Sorry Jen seems I gave your the wrong impression. These customers are actually considered “Associates” and have no ordering requirements at all. I assume that over the period of a year they plan on purchasing enough product to recover the $34.95. Most recover the majority of that on their first order.
Lazy man says: I find that just about every MLM product is extremely overpriced even with the discount. I can’t think of an exception off the top of my head.
Lazy Man as any salesman will tell you “the price is the price”. I didn’t need a complex economic calculation to figure out that on average my customers send less on a daily basis than the neighborhood soccer mom spends on her daily Starbucks frappicino.
If price doesn’t represent value to the customer they won’t but the product.
Yes, the “price is the price”, but you don’t find it odd that seemingly EVERY MLM product is extremely overpriced.
It reminds of this $100 pen pyramid scheme or The MLM Gas Station and $8/Gallon Gas.
I don’t think Starbucks is too much more than Dunkin Donuts, Pete’s, or whatever else. It might be a little more, but I’ve found cases where the MLM version of a product is 20 times more expensive! And let’s not forget that Starbucks provides a product and a service… a retail location and an employee serving it. The value is completely different than any MLM product that I’m aware of.
Papa said, “If price doesn’t represent value to the customer they won’t but the product.”
Well MonaVie sold a lot of $45 juice that was revealed to be “expensive flavor water.” So many distributors of the product lied and claimed it cured cancer that doctors had to correct people. They sold a billion dollars worth of product, so you’d think it represented value to the customer. However, the company was foreclosed upon as many people ducked out of the pyramiding.
Maybe, just maybe, expensive flavored water didn’t provide value to the customer. It doesn’t mean that people didn’t buy it to qualify for the pyramiding “opportunity.”
I challenge Plexus to put their products in Wal-Mart and see how many people it when there’s no “opportunity” around it.
Well Geoff that certainly was a mouthfull.
Weak minded huh?
Let me ask you a few of questions:
How much time did you spend fact checking Lazy Man’s original article?
How much time did you spend trying to duplicate and/or verify the information he provide?
How much time did you spend researching the ingredients contained in Plexus products and the documented scientific evidence on their health benefits?
How much time did you spend finding anything at all out about Plexus products or company beyond reading Lazy Man’s article?
I’ll engage you if and when I decide you may be a worthy opponent. At this point you come across as just another sheep in Lazy Man’s flock.
Try harder you may just make the cut.
Lazy Man, I think what Papa Hoover is saying is if a person has the money to pay for a $5 Latte they shouldn’t think Plexus is expensive because when you break it down it’s less than a daily Latte at Starbucks. He is not comparing it to other coffee places.
He not comparing apples to apples or oranges to oranges or even apples to oranges. He is saying if you can buy an organic chocolate covered Apple you can afford to buy a regular orange even if the orange is overpriced.
So he is assuming all customers will A) go to Starbucks every day and B) buy a super unhealthy drink (those are the most expensive). I think that maybe not a good sells strategy.
Sorry Lazy Man I should have used the phrase “perceived value”. My bad.
Yes I do agree with you that the price of a cup of coffee anywhere is ridiculous. According to US News the average price of a cup of coffee in the US is $2.70. That’s just plain black coffee Personally I make mine at home and take it with me.
I recently worked with a customer who was interested in trying the probiotic from Plexus. She had tried other brands and was not satisfied with the results. Knowing that she’s the type that keeps everything. I asked if she had the receipts from her other purchases. Not surprisingly she did have them and showed them to me. To both our surprise what she had paid for her previous probiotics was roughly plus or minus $2 from the price of the Plexus products for a 30 day supply.
No doubt there are scams every where. Since you mentioned water let’s stick to that. Personally I don’t see the point of bottled water, there are so many out there that claim to be the purest. Hell now we even have “smart water” what ever that means. As a consumer I don’t see any value in bottled water and consider that whole industry to be a scam. I grew up on the farm myself and still think good old well water is the best you can get.
Why on earth would any smart entrepreneur today want to tie themselves to a brick and mortar business model. Internet businesses are killing the brick and mortar folks. Hell even Walmart has started to close locations in smaller communities.
I doubt Plexus would even consider your challenge Lazy Man. Once again the cost of that approach would cut very deeply into their profit margins.
From everything I can see today’s best business model for consumer products is direct sales to the consumer via the internet.
Thanks Jen. As you say, Papa Hoover isn’t comparing apples to apples. I find it unlikely that such a person will quit coffee… so it isn’t a replacement cost, but an additive one.
In fact his comparison to Starbucks is so predictable in MLM that I wrote specifically about MLM and Starbucks comparisons being Poor Irrelevant Analogies more than 4 years ago!
Yes, “perceived value” is exactly the problem. Thanks for agreeing with me.
I did a rough pricing study on coffee about 18 months ago: Brewing Coffee at Home vs. Buying at a Coffee Shop and found that a cup of coffee is around $1.75. Of the three big coffee sellers I covered, (Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds), the most expensive coffee was $2.25. That was for a 20 ounce coffee, which is closer to 3 cups of coffee (8 ounces being a “cup”).
Can you provide the source for US News saying that a cup of plain, black coffee is $2.70? I’m not saying you are lying, but I couldn’t find it with a few minutes of searching.
One of my issues with MLM is that distributors just spout out stuff… and they don’t provide sources.
Which specific probiotics were on the receipt? As Jen might recommend, let’s try to compare apples to apples. Why do you call out Geoff for his lack of detailing specific ingredients in Plexus products while you fail to give details in your response?
If you are trying to make a factual claim, please cite it. Is that fair?
It is unusual that you’d bring up a story of a customer who was “not satisfied with the results” of other probiotic products, but is now interested in trying a probiotic from Plexus. If I were to say that I was “not satisfied with the results” of other multivitamins, but I’m interested in Flintstones’ multivitamins, what would you say? I’d hope you’d say, “This doesn’t make any sense at all.”
I think it is statements like this that make it so easy for Geoff to call you out. (Just a tip, when you are called out, respond to it. Don’t throw a bunch of new questions to deflect it.)
I wrote that Chris Rock has been making jokes about bottled water back in 2008. Before that I wrote about bottled water in 2007 (sorry, I didn’t know about BPA 9 years ago).
I think we agree on bottled water in general. Let’s not “stick to that.” Instead, let’s keep the subject of this article on Plexus. If you want to comment on bottled water, please do so on those articles that specifically address the topic.
Thank you.
Papa Hover said, “Why on earth would any smart entrepreneur today want to tie themselves to a brick and mortar business model. Internet businesses are killing the brick and mortar folks. Hell even Walmart has started to close locations in smaller communities.”
Are you saying that Plexus is an “Internet business?” It you are that’s cool, but it is an interesting take on MLM. Most MLMs prohibit sales on Amazon and Ebay. I looked at Plexus’s agreement quickly and they seem to be one of the few that do NOT explicitly prohibit it. This is a good thing for Plexus… and I’m happy to give credit where credit is due.
In general, MLMs (not Plexus) explicit refusal to have their products sold via Ebay and Amazon makes it weird to argue an Internet business model. If you really want to make the Internet argument then why isn’t Plexus putting it’s product on Amazon.com? It’s an Internet business selling almost as much product as Wal-Mart.
I did see some Plexus products listed on Amazon, but they didn’t seem to come from the Plexus itself and Plexus Plastic Cleaner (I think it is a different company) was one of the top results.
Papa Hoover said, “I doubt Plexus would even consider your challenge Lazy Man. Once again the cost of that approach would cut very deeply into their profit margins.”
I agree. I don’t think Plexus would consider my challenge. I’ve offered the same challenge many, many times and no MLM company has taken me up on it. It’s not limited to Wal-Mart, but any store shelf, such as GNC. It sounds to me that you are agreeing that Plexus’ products can’t compete on their own merit like Minute Maid, Ocean Spray, or Jennie-O turkey (random examples).
If putting a product on a store shelf means “cut[ting] very deeply into their profit margins” you are starting to prove my point that MLM products are priced excessively too high. We can go into Business 101 and talk profit margins, but I think one of the best rules of business “is make your product accessible.” I don’t believe that Plexus has done that.
Papa Hoover said, “From everything I can see today’s best business model for consumer products is direct sales to the consumer via the internet.”
It’s fine to have that opinion, but I’m curious about “everything [you] see.” Did you see how Vemma’s “direst sales to the consumer via the internet” was shut down by the FTC as an illegal pyramid scheme: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/08/ftc-acts-halt-vemma-alleged-pyramid-scheme ? Do you think those people think it was the best business model? What about the MonaVie people who had the same “direst sales to the consumer via the internet” in 2007?
Papa Hoover,
I must preface this post by saying once again, you are a weak debater, and have once again not answered any pertinent points. You have instead resorted to deflection by asking a bunch of nonsensical questions that have nothing to do with the discussion, or are so useless to answer they don’t provide any value for future critiques. With that being stated…let’s get started.
Papa Hoover said, “How much time did you spend fact checking Lazy Man’s original article?”
If by fact checking you mean clicking on his citations and supporting websites, then A LOT OF TIME…I have read nearly all of his MLM articles, and visited many of his sources to verify that anything he takes from an article is copied word for word and is not manipulated to suit his needs. Again, this has nothing to do with the purpose of this post, but I also don’t want you to think you are somehow winning if I deem this a non worthy question to answer.
Papa Hoover said, “How much time did you spend trying to duplicate and/or verify the information he provide?”
This is literally a reiteration of the first question, except now you asked it as though it was a scientific experiment…The bottom line is, this question is just dumb and if you have anything that seems invalid, then YOU should highlight and address it appropriately so we can attend to that particular issue.
Papa Hoover said, “How much time did you spend researching the ingredients contained in Plexus products and the documented scientific evidence on their health benefits?”
…huh!?!? Not only did I never bring up anything about the Plexus ingredients in my posts to you, but who cares how long I spent researching that point? It has nothing to do with the article as a whole (this is an article about the business model and MLM). To say you are reaching at straws at this point…is an understatement.
Papa Hoover said, “How much time did you spend finding anything at all out about Plexus products or company beyond reading Lazy Man’s article?”
Again, this is another wording for the first 2 questions…this is just pure stupidity at this point. How many times can you ask, did you ever see a word about Plexus anywhere other than this article…the answer is obviously YES!
Papa Hoover said, “I’ll engage you if and when I decide you may be a worthy opponent. At this point you come across as just another sheep in Lazy Man’s flock.”
Who talks like that??? A worthy opponent? You sound like a villain from Star Wars…I would say at this point, you come across as a sheeple from Plexus, but that would be giving too much credit…
Papa Hoover said, “Try harder you may just make the cut.”
Can you try and bring something useful to the conversation…then it may look like I am “trying harder”. You are literally giving me and LM nothing to work with here, and continue to pull out erroneous BS from your magic top hat. I can’t tell if you actually are serious about anything, or are too daft to realize you make no sense and have nothing to offer.
Lazyman I thank you for this blog that shares the truth Plexus works so hard to hide.
I didn’t need to “research” anything, I LIVED IT and it wasn’t pretty.
Oh how I wanted it to work, PRAYED it would. I truly thought I could help people… until the diabetics got worse and people either gained weight or lost nothing. Then I discovered the heartbreaking truth.
“DOES PLEXUS WORK?” No, it didn’t for me or the trusting people who tried it with me. Never will I compromise my credibility again, EVER.
The MLM’s have a hard time. They try to sell you on the “product”, but they know the science is fishy(which is why they mostly use testimonials). Then they start the money hook, look at my car, look at my trips, build up that envy. As has been mentioned, these products don’t sell at Walmart because they would be a giant dud because they don’t do what they say. I decided to help a friend and tried Plexus, faithfully, for 90 days. Followed the plan exactly, drank the water, etc. Nothing.
OK Geoff. If you’re such an expert, could you tell me despite the information in Lazy Man’s article about Plexus products being banned from Amazon just why they are available on Amazon today?
If you don’t mind would you start with the FDA ban of DMAA in 2012.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Lazy Man would you mind sharing with us what update you made to the article on May 28th?
It seems to me that when I originally read the article there was a reference to Item #5 of the Compensation plan being the only item of the 11 related selling products to customers? Which is incorrect by the may.
I could be wrong maybe I saw it in one of your responses.
Thanks in advance for the clarification.
The more I dig into the posts on this blog the more amused I become.
My favorites are those posts sighting the FTC and it’s words of wisdom on pyramid schemes. Well guys and gals the FTC wouldn’t know a pyramid scheme if it slapped them in the face.
Oh wait! One did!
Do a little research on the FTC’s Amway investigation and their final ruling.
And they thought the knew how to create a legitimate MLM.
Huh!
Geoff says: I would say at this point, you come across as a sheeple from Plexus, but that would be giving too much credit…
Geoff Geoff Geoff! For a second there I almost thought you had a pair. (I hope you understand that reference)
Sheeple for Plexus huh. Let me assure you that that sir is far from the truth. For me, getting involved in a MLM was just one more thing on my bucket list. Yep I use the products and I am very satisfied with my experience with them. (Insert you favorite FDA disclaimer here) Like many of you, I was skeptical of the whole MLM thing but decided to give it a try. As for the potential income, I won’t bore you with my own personal financial data but I’ll be retiring in 3 years and won’t see any drop off from my current 6 figure income level. Let’s just say it’s a hobby for me.
Yeah I opened the door for you Geoff. Come on in. Say what you will about me but you’ll be wasting your time. You may even come up with something very insightful about my lack of morals for making a hobby out of scamming people. Damn! My bad!
So why did I get involved in this blog you may wonder. I get involved in a lot of blogs that are …….. well let’s just say less that truthful with the information they offer up. There are thousand of them on the internet. (I’ve just recently discovered that Lazy Man owns quite a few related to MLM’s) It’s just another one of my hobbies. LOL
Now Geoff don’t be thinking I’ve decided your a worthy opponent quite yet. You did earn yourself a promotion to “whipping boy” though. Great job there Geoff!
Jen said: He not comparing apples to apples or oranges to oranges or even apples to oranges. He is saying if you can buy an organic chocolate covered Apple you can afford to buy a regular orange even if the orange is overpriced. So he is assuming all customers will A) go to Starbucks every day and B) buy a super unhealthy drink (those are the most expensive). I think that maybe not a good sells strategy.
Actually Jen my comment was related to the perceived value of two different consumer products. Some consumers see value in their Starbucks coffee and spend their money that way. Other see value in Plexus products and spend their money that way.
Lazy Man said: Thanks Jen. As you say, Papa Hoover isn’t comparing apples to apples. I find it unlikely that such a person will quit coffee… so it isn’t a replacement cost, but an additive one.
Just where in my comment did I even remotely suggest that anyone would replace their daily coffee with Plexus products. I certainly haven’t.
Once again, it was simply a comment on consumer perceived value and how different people choose to spend their money.
Oy Vey!
I’ll call Papa Hoover a liar. If Papa Hoover wants to give specifics I’ll be happy to see them. If selling snake oil gets you six figures(while 99% of those involved in your product get nothing), then I’ll leave it to karma to deal harshly with you.
Good morning Geoff!
Geoff said: It has nothing to do with the article as a whole (this is an article about the business model and MLM). To say you are reaching at straws at this point…is an understatement.
If you go back and reread LM’s original article, his references and many of the posts on this blog I’m sure your see there are may comments related to MLM business selling products that present no value to the consumer.
My suggestion that you research the ingredients is based on my own research on the therapeutic benefits of many of the ingredients in Plexus products.
But don’t take my word for it, check what WebMD has to say about the therapeutic benefits of chromium and magnesium supplements.
Wes said: I decided to help a friend and tried Plexus, faithfully, for 90 days. Followed the plan exactly, drank the water, etc. Nothing.
Wes that must be a really good friend. It’s experiences like yours that prevents me from using that tactic with my prospective customers. Did you’re friend offer you the option of a 7 Day Trial Pack? That’s the approach I use. If someone isn’t going to see some benefit from the products after 7 days they probably never will. If they buy the products and don’t see any benefits after 30 days, I’m pointing them to the information needed to request a refund.
Lazy Man said: Can you provide the source for US News saying that a cup of plain, black coffee is $2.70? I’m not saying you are lying, but I couldn’t find it with a few minutes of searching.
Took me less than 10 seconds to find it. What search engine do you use anyway?
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/09/29/americans-pay-an-average-270-for-coffee-while-tipping-20-percent
Are you saying that Plexus is an “Internet business?” It you are that’s cool, but it is an interesting take on MLM. Most MLMs prohibit sales on Amazon and Ebay. I looked at Plexus’s agreement quickly and they seem to be one of the few that do NOT explicitly prohibit it. This is a good thing for Plexus… and I’m happy to give credit where credit is due.
In general, MLMs (not Plexus) explicit refusal to have their products sold via Ebay and Amazon makes it weird to argue an Internet business model. If you really want to make the Internet argument then why isn’t Plexus putting it’s product on Amazon.com? It’s an Internet business selling almost as much product as Wal-Mart.
Of course Plexus is an internet business Lazy Man. In fact, contrary to what has been posted in this blog, consumers are not required to purchase Plexus products from an Ambassador. Anyone can go to plexusworldwide.com and order products. They’ll pay the higher retail price but that is an available option.
As I mentioned in a previous post, part of the #34.95 that Ambassadors pay is for a replicated version of that website that automatically records all the sales to the Ambassadors account. Did you think that Plexus Ambassadors run around with an order pad collecting orders and then send them to Plexus for processing? Nope! Customers go directly to the Ambassadors website, place their order and Plexus ships the products directly to them.
I need to do a little more research on your Amazon and E-bay information. I was under the impression that Ambassadors were prohibited from selling product in that manner. You are correct, that is not stated in the Policy and Procedure document. If I can locate a reference I’ll post it later.
Perceived value? When I go to Starbucks (which is only in the fall and winter once a week) I always get what I asked for which is either a pumpkin spice or gingerbread latte made with good quality coffee. It always wakes me up which is what I look for it to do. You are not being completely truthful when you say you don’t expect it to be a replacement cost. You and I both know that plexus has pills that claim to do the same thing that coffee does without caffeine. So they claim its healthier.
Also like I mentioned before I get what I want with Starbucks. It seem when someone complains about not losing weight with plexus slim it’s said ” losing weight is just a side effect, it’s about being heathy.” So there is no way to know if it’s working.
Papa Hoover said: It seems to me that when I originally read the article there was a reference to Item #5 of the Compensation plan being the only item of the 11 related selling products to customers? Which is incorrect by the may.
Seems weird to be quoting myself but ……….
Lazy Man I did find that it was in one of your posts not in the original article.
I would like to suggest that you take a look at the compensation plan again. The way I read items #6 and #10 they seem related to retail sales.
I also found it interesting that item #10 explains the importance of recruiting Preferred Customers along with Ambassadors. It is exactly this approach that I have been using when selling Plexus products. I don’t recruit Ambassadors I recruit Preferred Customers and convert them if that is was works best for them.
Getting involved with an MLM was on your “bucket list”? Really? It was just something you HAD to do before you died?
Lazy Man’s other anti MLM sites aren’t exactly a secret, nor is the extremely well known Amway ruling. And Geoff needing to “grow a pair”? What does that mean, exactly? You think his responses have lacked courage? How, exactly? From where I’m sitting, he has been beating you like a rented mule.
Papa Hoover, you are coming across as desperate and barely coherent. You are paying attention to Plexus’ “perceived value”, and ignoring the reason for the perception, which is all based on the income “opportunity” and the fundamental dishonesty that pervades MLM.
As for the personal appeal to expertise you have been not-so-subtly trying to pull (6 figure income, great grandkids, retiring in 3 years etc.), you may want to try just sticking to the verifiable facts of the matter, because anyone who has read any of the MLM posts here has heard it all before.
Except the “bucket list” bit. That’s new. It is also one of the saddest things I have ever heard. It’s like someone putting “have dinner at Perkins” or “ask people for spare change” on their bucket list.
This is an advertisement my “friend” just posted.
?”Not everyone needs to lose weight.
?Not everyone wants to exercise every day of the week.
?Not everyone wants to cook organic meals at home every day.
BUT…
?Everyone wants to be healthy.
?Everyone wants to have more energy.
?Everyone wants to sleep well at night.
?Everyone wants to be the best person they can be.
That’s why Plexus is for everyone. It fits so easily into your daily routine and doesn’t take any time or effort away from the things you want to be doing—the products do so much of the work for you!
?With more energy, you will want to move and exercise more.
?With better sleep, you can be more productive during the day.
?With balanced blood sugar and a healthy gut, your body will start to crave healthy foods!
Health takes time and effort, and Plexus offers a great way to start the process! ”
So basically it says you don’t have to exercise or even eat healthy to be healthy just take Plexus.
I don’t know why people fall for this they should you don’t have to take anything to balance your blood sugar (unless you are diabetic) you just have to eat a healthy diet. Exercise also gives you more engery and helps you sleep.
Papa Hoover, A venti (large) coffee at Starbucks is around $2.50 depending on the city it could be a little more. A venti is 2 1/2 to 3 severings of coffee. It’s not a coffee. It’s 3 coffees.
Well welcome to the game Adam!
Obviously mommy and daddy never taught you about sarcasm as you were growing up.
You see Adam, I see Geoff as someone who got sucked into “hero worshipping” Lazy Man. Ever notice that the majority of his post simply mimic what Lazy Man has said. He does the same thing on Lazy Man’s other MLM sites. Geoff needs to find the courage to develop his own ideas and be able to back them up.
As for Geoff “beating me like a rented mule”. Are you or have you ever been a boxing fan? Ever hear of Mohamed Ali and his “rope-a-dope” strategy. I’ve only just started with Geoff, keep watching this will get interesting very soon.
Oh yes I’m well aware of Lazy Man’s multiple anti-MLM site.
Why in the world do you think I would be desperate about anything related to this blog or Plexus? What part of my post about both being only hobbies didn’t you get.
Personal appeal to expertise? Let me assure you that I don’t give a rat’s ass what any of you think about me or my posts. I’m just here to stir shit up.
Glad you found the “bucket list” bit new. Again apparently you missed the sarcasm behind that. Sorry! My bad!
Oh and let’s not forget about “facts” on this or the other Lazy Man anti-MLM sites. I for one think many of those “facts” are not very accurate or supportable. We’ll be getting to that soon too.
Papa Hoover,
That was some tirade over night and early this morning. I hope you can at least blame a glass of wine or something ;-).
I’m not sure what update I made on May 28th. I don’t recall making anything significant. I think I saw a left-out verb or a sentence didn’t agree.
You may be referring to the preferred customer program. However, a section of that compensation plan says, “Benefit #5: Get New Customers and Ambassadors. If every two months, one Preferred Customer decides to become a Plexus Ambassador, your organization will be growing steadily and so will your check! Furthermore, if every two months each of the Ambassadors in your organization had one Preferred Customer decide to become an Ambassador, you would see massive growth in your organization. ”
It seems to suggest that preferred customers can be a gateway to recruitment, so I have the opinion that it is recruitment as well. You can have the opposite opinion of course.
I’m very familiar with the FTC vs. Amway ruling. Let’s keep in mind that was over 30 years ago and there are a lot more cases nowadays: Burnlounge, Vemma, Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing. The FTC’s guidelines are from 2012 much later than 1979 Amway thing. Presumably they took in the happenings from 1979 into account in 2012. Fair?
And let’s not forget that Amway paid $150 MILLION to make a lawsuit go away. That’s a lot of money to pay to make a problem go away if you think you are innocent.
Papa Hoover said, “I get involved in a lot of blogs that are …….. well let’s just say less that truthful with the information they offer up. There are thousand of them on the internet. (I’ve just recently discovered that Lazy Man owns quite a few related to MLM’s) It’s just another one of my hobbies. LOL”
We have something in common. Usually readers ask me about MLMs and in the first 30 seconds of looking at them I find a TON of less than truthful information being offered up. So I write articles to help out the reader and point out where the less than truthful information is used to mislead consumers.
Papa Hoover said, “Actually Jen my comment was related to the perceived value of two different consumer products. Some consumers see value in their Starbucks coffee and spend their money that way. Other see value in Plexus products and spend their money that way. Just where in my comment did I even remotely suggest that anyone would replace their daily coffee with Plexus products. I certainly haven’t. Once again, it was simply a comment on consumer perceived value and how different people choose to spend their money.”
So we’ve established that you are comparing apples to transmissions here. You should probably explain that at the outset because people are going to assume you mean to compare similar things.
My new point (which was not brought up by Papa Hoover) was that if you aren’t replacing your coffee with Plexus products, you need to spend more money. Who cares about the price of coffee if you aren’t replacing it? Was your next plan to bring up the cost of car insurance? How many costs unrelated to Plexus did you intend to sidetrack us with?
Remember this site is about achieving financial freedom and being frugal is often an important part of that equation. We should be sure that people are overpaying for MLM products to qualify for an “opportunity” where 99% of people lose money. That seems the general case with MLM.
Papa Hoover said, “If you go back and reread LM’s original article, his references and many of the posts on this blog I’m sure your see there are may comments related to MLM business selling products that present no value to the consumer.”
I’m not sure I ever said that a product provided no value to the consumer. If I did, please let me know which products I said this of. Even Asea which has been criticized (by scientists) of being nothing more than salt water, still could have some value to a consumer… as a liter of water has value to consumers. The question I have is whether the value is really $70 or $0.99. It seems like the MLMs want to say it’s $70, but they wrap it up in the opportunity. They don’t prove the value of the standalone product on the shelf at Wal-Mart, which may be closer to 99 cents.
Papa Hoover said, “But don’t take my word for it, check what WebMD has to say about the therapeutic benefits of chromium and magnesium supplements.”
Even if we were to agree on these benefits, can’t we find a cheaper product that has them? I think we can. Then this becomes an important personal finance question of why people would pay the premium. I’d be clearly justified in trying to help consumers find alternatives.
Thanks for the link on the average price of coffee. I specifically searched for “US News 2.70 coffee” (it was in my saved searches) and it didn’t come up. I see now that it’s the top. Maybe they were juggling the rankings. In any case, this is data from Square cited by U.S. News. It doesn’t seem to adjust for the size of coffee, which could be one difference. They might have also included tax and tip where I did not.
You may not be surprised, but I like my analysis better: Brewing Coffee at Home vs. Buying at a Coffee Shop… especially because I show you where I come up with all the calculations.
Papa Hoover said, “As I mentioned in a previous post, part of the #34.95 that Ambassadors pay is for a replicated version of that website that automatically records all the sales to the Ambassadors account. Did you think that Plexus Ambassadors run around with an order pad collecting orders and then send them to Plexus for processing? Nope!”
To some degree most of everything is an Internet business nowadays. Do you think Firestone tires says, “No we don’t want to use the Internet to communicate via email, we’ll use carrier pigeons!” Of course not. My point is that MLM (when it’s working legitimately) is often associated with real-world trying the product.
I covered the horrible plan of imposing the $34.95 cost of a website on Ambassadors and you didn’t respond to it.
Thanks for getting back to me on the Amazon and Ebay issue. I don’t want to give them credit for allowing it if you say it is prohibited.
Papa Hoover said, “I would like to suggest that you take a look at the compensation plan again. The way I read items #6 and #10 they seem related to retail sales.”
My opinion is different than yours:
6. Starts with “If you sponsor an Ambassador…”
This looks like recruiting to me. I don’t see this applying if I sell a product to a friend at my son’s soccer game (as an example of a retail sale).
7. “Emerald Pool Bonus… To participate in the Emerald Pool, you need to personally sponsor and maintain 6 Qualified Ambassadors and have a minimum of 1500 Plexus Points in your first 7 levels in a given month, with 375 of those Plexus Points coming outside of your primary leg. ”
I don’t see how someone can qualify for this without recruiting/sponsoring people. In fact, it seems that you have to sponsor 6 Ambassadors and ones that are “Qualified.”
8. “Sapphire Pool Bonus”
This is similar to the Emerald requirements, but it appears as if the recruitment/sponsorship thresholds are higher.
9. “Diamond Pool Bonus”
See #7 and #8, but again with higher thresholds of recruitment.
I’m astonished that you’d claim that 6-9 are not related to recruiting. I don’t see a way that they can be accomplished without recruitment.
I covered #10, the preferred customer program above.
Finally, Papa Hover, I don’t allow people to post links to sites that I know to be purposely publishing legally defamatory false information. Hope you understand.
Adam,
Thank you for the kind words.
Papa Hoover said, “Geoff Geoff Geoff! For a second there I almost thought you had a pair. (I hope you understand that reference)”
Devolving this further into a Trump V. Rubio moment is the final push for me…you have proven to be nothing of consequence, and have lost all merit for this topic (not that you had much left anyways).
Papa Hoover said, “For me, getting involved in a MLM was just one more thing on my bucket list. Yep I use the products and I am very satisfied with my experience with them. (Insert you favorite FDA disclaimer here) Like many of you, I was skeptical of the whole MLM thing but decided to give it a try.”
Wow you literally don’t think before you type…Why would this ever be on your bucket list if you are skeptical of MLM…This is literally like saying I love Ice cream, but I hate Gelato…
Papa Hoover said, “I won’t bore you with my own personal financial data but I’ll be retiring in 3 years and won’t see any drop off from my current 6 figure income level. Let’s just say it’s a hobby for me.”
You mean you are finding more excuses to not verify anything about anything!??!! Well isn’t that predictable. I’m guessing you are a fan of hyperbole and your actual income is closer to just above affording your electric bill…
Papa Hoover said, “You may even come up with something very insightful about my lack of morals for making a hobby out of scamming people. Damn! My bad!”
Probably the first honest thing you have said about yourself, and it speaks volumes…
Papa Hoover said, “So why did I get involved in this blog you may wonder. I get involved in a lot of blogs that are …….. well let’s just say less that truthful with the information they offer up.”
Still repeating junk that didn’t work the first time…and again not supporting this claim with any legitimate or accurate support…I wonder how you did on research papers (Rhetorical thought…)
Papa Hoover said, “Now Geoff don’t be thinking I’ve decided your a worthy opponent quite yet. You did earn yourself a promotion to “whipping boy” though. Great job there Geoff!”
This is exactly why I will not respond to any of your nonsense after this post…you have added nothing but stupid distractions to a very important and well constructed forum.
Papa Hoover said, “If you go back and reread LM’s original article, his references and many of the posts on this blog I’m sure your see there are may comments related to MLM business selling products that present no value to the consumer.”
That is a half truth at best. There are many MLM’s that provide a product which has value, but is wildly overpriced, or not competitive with the other companies in the same field. They are propagating a dream rather than a business opportunity.
Papa Hoover said, “But don’t take my word for it, check what WebMD has to say about the therapeutic benefits of chromium and magnesium supplements.”
Okay let’s see what WebMD says about Chromium and Magnesium here, http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/tc/chromium-topic-overview
“Chromium exists in many natural foods including brewer’s yeast, meats, potatoes (especially the skins), cheeses, molasses, spices, whole-grain breads and cereals, and fresh fruits and vegetables. Drinking hard tap water supplies chromium to the body, and cooking in stainless-steel cookware increases the chromium content in foods.”
Basically, Chromium is found in everyone’s diets unless you are stuck on Snickers bars…
“But because the human body needs very little chromium, most people get enough in their regular diet and do not require dietary supplements. Those at risk for chromium deficiency include people with diabetes and the elderly.”
That’s interesting…it seems as long as you eat “food” you are not at a risk…and those that are, are a very small portion of the population. What are some of the risks with taking too much chromium from supplements?
“Too much chromium from supplements can also damage the liver, kidneys, and nerves, and it may cause irregular heart rhythm. But side effects from taking chromium supplements are rare.”
That’s interesting…even if the side effects are rare, they are severe, and supplements are relatively unnecessary except for very particular situations. (Needless to say that is not how you pitched Chromium, AND, this is from the article YOU suggested…)
Now onto Magnesium…http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/lifestyle-guide-11/supplement-guide-magnesium
“Severe magnesium deficiencies are rare. They’re more likely in people who: Have kidney disease,
Have Crohn’s disease or other conditions that affect digestion, Have parathyroid problems,
Take antibiotics or drugs for diabetes and cancer
Are older adults, Abuse alcohol”
So…It’s rare and again most people don’t need it…
“Natural food sources of magnesium include: Green, leafy vegetables, like spinach
Nuts
Beans, peas, and soybeans
Whole-grain cereals
Eating whole foods is always best. Magnesium can be lost during refinement and processing.”
You don’t need supplements…you just need to eat properly. This is my biggest gripe with people who claim supplements are extremely important. Most are excessive and not FDA approved (also not scientifically proven to be beneficial). Most of these ingredients you brag about in supplements are things you get just from taking care of yourself. The people who are in need of supplements have either neglected their bodies, or are getting to an age where their bodies are breaking down anyways (Not the people you are pitching for a new and exciting business opportunity mixed with health benefits).
Your logic is awful, your research is pitiful, and your attempts to prove Plexus is anything other than BS are foiled. This will be my last post to you Papa Hoover, because this forum is not gaining anything from the direction this is going. Good luck with your business and your morals…both seem to be very compromised.
I have been trying to come up with an analogy to make you see how funny the Starbucks analogy ( it’s not really an analogy but I don’t know what to call it) you can up with sounds. So your saying if some can buy what you perceive as overpriced coffee than they should be able to buy plexus rather it’s overpriced or not. That’s like a realtor not understanding why their client who drives a Tesla will not pay a million for a house that only is worth $750,000. I mean he drives a Tesla he shouldn’t care how much the house is even if it’s overpriced. He has the money.
Jen said: Papa Hoover, A venti (large) coffee at Starbucks is around $2.50 depending on the city it could be a little more. A venti is 2 1/2 to 3 severings of coffee. It’s not a coffee. It’s 3 coffees.
I had to go back and check. In my original post related to Plexus and Starbuck perceived value I did say Frappuccino not regular coffee. I believe it was Lazy Man who introduced regular coffee into the discussion.
In the spirit of providing facts as part of my posts as Lazy Man suggested (thanks Lazy Man) I’ve included the cost of Frappuccinos from
Starbucks website.
[Editor’s Correction: Papa Hoover wrote here, “That’s just plain black coffee.”]
Caramel Frappuccino Mini $3.75
Caramel Frappuccino Tall $3.95
Caramel Frappuccino Grande $4.45
Caramel Frappuccino Venti $4.95
Mocha Frappuccino Mini $3.75
Mocha Frappuccino Tall $3.95
Mocha Frappuccino Grande $4.45
Mocha Frappuccino Venti $4.95
[Editor’s Note: Please don’t introduce new irrelevant information to your bad, debunked attempt at an analogy.]
Lazy Man excuse me but I said #6 and #10 not #6 thru #10.
[Editor’s Response: Good correction, but can we agree that #6 seems to require recruiting/sponsoring as I pointed out? Also, the growing a massive organization (or whatever the quote was) from preferred customers appears to be pitching the virtues of creating a downline, so it is my opinion that #10 also has a recruitment componenent.]
Geoff said: Devolving this further into a Trump V. Rubio moment is the final push for me…you have proven to be nothing of consequence, and have lost all merit for this topic (not that you had much left anyways).
But I so loved the Trump v. Rubio penis size thing for it’s humor value. That and the fact it just one more example of what American politics has devolved into.
Geoff said: Wow you literally don’t think before you type…Why would this ever be on your bucket list if you are skeptical of MLM…This is literally like saying I love Ice cream, but I hate Gelato.
Like Adam you obviously missed the sarcasm in that part of the post. You and Adam brothers? Actually I don’t really care for ice cream but really like Gelato. You do know they are actually quite different right. Here’s a reference for your reading enjoyment. Oh and yes I do think before I type. Just because you can’t see the method to the madness doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
[Editor’s Note: Papa, please steer clear of using sarcasm in this discussion unless you are going to use /sarcasm tags. It seems clear that you are creating confusion where the average person can’t detect your intention.]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/ice-cream-vs-gelato_n_3333016.html
Geoff said: You mean you are finding more excuses to not verify anything about anything!??!! Well isn’t that predictable. I’m guessing you are a fan of hyperbole and your actual income is closer to just above affording your electric bill…
Oh I think you right about that, it has become time for me to start provided references to support my posts. Well I could have provided a redacted W2 for you but I thought that would be a too much. I’ll just leave it that.
Geoff said: Probably the first honest thing you have said about yourself, and it speaks volumes…
You really do struggle with the concept of sarcasm don’t you?
Geoff said: Still repeating junk that didn’t work the first time…and again not supporting this claim with any legitimate or accurate support…I wonder how you did on research papers (Rhetorical thought…).
Actually I always did quite well on research papers. Even without the modern conveniences of Google search and the Internet like the younger generations had. Image actually having to go to a library to collect your data an references. It was a bitch let me tell you. Sorry I know you said rhetorical but I couldn’t resist.
Geoff said: This is exactly why I will not respond to any of your nonsense after this post…you have added nothing but stupid distractions to a very important and well constructed forum.
You’re acting just like my soon to be 3 year old grandson. Grandpa says something he doesn’t like so he goes into another room pouts. Now come on Geoff stick with me here. I promise to cut off the personal insults if you will and I’ll start backing up my claims with references. Deal?????
Geoff said: That is a half truth at best. There are many MLM’s that provide a product which has value, but is wildly overpriced, or not competitive with the other companies in the same field. They are propagating a dream rather than a business opportunity.
Half truths! Seems this entire blog is filled with half truths and I’m not the only one presenting them. Seems to me that every business opportunity start out as a dream Geoff, that’s just the way life is.
I’m not going to copy and paste your entire post related to your WebMD findings. I’m impressed and you actually came to the conclusions that I had hope you would. See the problem with today world is that people just don’t eat the way they should. Either due to time constraints or cost. It’s seems sad that in this country it cost more to eat healthy than to eat unhealthy. Every day people go to their doctors and the doctor recommends the use of some nutritional supplement. That’s exactly why the supplement business has become a 32 billion dollar industry in the country.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/235801/retail-sales-of-vitamins-and-nutritional-supplements-in-the-us/
You are also correct in too much of a good thing can be have negative effects on one body. Did you know you can literally drown yourself by drinking too much water.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/06/19/ask-well-can-you-drink-too-much-water/?_r=0
You are also correct that age plays an important factor in the use of supplements. It has a lot to do with the accumulated toxins absorbed my one body of the years.
Geoff said: Your logic is awful, your research is pitiful, and your attempts to prove Plexus is anything other than BS are foiled. This will be my last post to you Papa Hoover, because this forum is not gaining anything from the direction this is going. Good luck with your business and your morals…both seem to be very compromised.
Once again just because you can’t see my logic doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Come on Geoff stay in the game you might actually learn something.
Lazy Man said: Finally, Papa Hover, I don’t allow people to post links to sites that I know to be purposely publishing legally defamatory false information. Hope you understand.
Certainly I understand Lazy Man. Can one assume that you’re actively pursing legal action against the author of that site?
[Editor’s Response: If you cover the legal fees to do so, I’m happy to. You can send me a donation via this Paypal link. Thanks for your help on this matter.]
Lazy Man said: That was some tirade over night and early this morning. I hope you can at least blame a glass of wine or something ;-).
Actually that’s not a bad thought and I wish I had thought of it last night. ;-) I do have a small collection of California estate wines that are very good.
What happened, is I was on a long weekend motorcycle trip to the UP of Michigan and although I could follow this blog on my phone I couldn’t respond. As you may have noticed my typing is terrible anyway and it’s exponentially worse from my phone. That was compounded by the fact that my wife was busy dealing with web portal Go Live that wasn’t going very well when I got home.
So here I sat last night with nothing to do but get all of those pent up post from the last four days out of my system.
Sorry if it was a bit much. :-)
Lazy Man I knew I saw it some where. Below is an excerpt from the recently updated Plexus Policies and Procedure document.
Internet Sales Sites: An Ambassador may not sell or facilitate the sale of Product on Internet websites where an auction or other method is the mode of selling or buying (e.g., eBay, Amazon, Craigslist, etc.). An Ambassador may not use a third party to place Product on auction or other sales websites or sell Product to a third party if the Ambassador knows, or has reason to know, that such Product will be sold on auction or other sales websites. The provisions of this Section survive the termination of the Contract. Your replicated Plexus website is the only authorized online sales site.
As you can see eBay and Amazon are specifically listed as places where Ambassadors can not sell products.
I suspect that the products we’re “retail packages” purchased by retail customers at a volume discount. Then sold on eBay or Amazon.
[Editor’s Note: Or could they be from distributors who paid for product to qualify, but realized the MLM standard 99% failure rate who left and realized that they can’t sell it. And if people are buying retail packages at a volume discount and reselling them, that’s certainly legal right?
If a company is interested in retail sales (instead of pyramiding) and is an “Internet” business as you say, why would they prohibit legitimate retail sales over some of the Internet’s biggest websites? It doesn’t make any business any sense.]
Another friend posted this.
“If your friend sells Younique, try it!
If your friend sells Scentsy, try it!
If your friend sells LulaRoe, try it!
If your friend sells Paparazzi, try it!
If your friend sells Posh, try it!
If your friend sells Plexus, try it
Moral of the story, if my friend owned a restaurant… Guess what, I would eat there! If a friend of mine owned a bakery, I would go there! If one of my friends owned a dance studio, I would have my child take lessons there.
So the next time you are walking into a Yankee candle, think about your friend who sells Scentsy and how she has a daughter to put through college.
Next time you walk into Sephora, think about that Younique beauty rep who has an 8 month old and is trying to buy a house.
Next time you go to GNC think about your friend who sells Plexus and how she is a stay at home mom trying to help her husband pay the bills and build a legacy for her kids.
Next time you go into Bath & Body Works, think about that friend who sells Perfectly Posh. <3
At the end of the day these big corporations are going to give absolutely NOTHING back to you, but when you help a small business owner you're not only helping them but you're also helping put money back into our economy"
This person does not sell plexus. She does sell one of the other things mentioned. This post tries to make you feel bad for sticking with a product you like and not buying what could be a lesser product from your friends. If you have to guilt trip people into buying your product maybe it's not a good business plan.
Papa Hoover then why were you arguing about regular coffee. You originally said frappachino then pivoted to plain coffee. The article you posted was about plain coffee. A frappachino is not a regular coffee it going to cost more than a coffee. There a are more steps to making it. Also again you are assuming that your customer will not only go to Starbucks everyday but will also be buying the most expensive and unhealthy drink they have.So for your “perceived value” thing to work your customer you are trying to sale plexus to would have to drink a very unhealthy drink everyday. With that sales strategy you will lose someone who doesn’t do that everyday. I think we have discussed coffee enough now.
Papa Hoover,
I’ve responded to you inside the comments to help make this a bit more readable. Just thought I’d let you know, so you can go back and read the responses. Thanks.
Lazy Man said: You may be referring to the preferred customer program. However, a section of that compensation plan says, “Benefit #5: Get New Customers and Ambassadors. If every two months, one Preferred Customer decides to become a Plexus Ambassador, your organization will be growing steadily and so will your check! Furthermore, if every two months each of the Ambassadors in your organization had one Preferred Customer decide to become an Ambassador, you would see massive growth in your organization. ” It seems to suggest that preferred customers can be a gateway to recruitment, so I have the opinion that it is recruitment as well. You can have the opposite opinion of course.
No problem Lazy Man I’m good with that response.
In fact, I’m not a big fan of the “sign ’em for $34.95 and make them millionares” approach.
As Norm Brodsky stated in his article, confidence is a key factor in sales success (paraphrased). He talks about confidence in oneself but I think confidence in the products your selling is also a key factor. Personally, I don’t think an Ambassador will be successful unless they have experience using the products and have their own story to tell.
[Editor’s Note – I find it hard how any can have confidence in a vast majority MLM products. It would take an extreme case of cognitive dissonance. That might explain why MLMs have to sell people on the “making them millionaires” approach and having pep rally hype conventions.]
So yes. Preferred customers can be used as a gateway for recruiting Ambassadors. Personally I don’t push that but if a customer wants to go in that direction then I’ll gladly help facilitate that.
[Editor’s Note – I think this becomes a problem with MLMs/pyramid schemes. I saw one MLM expert recommend that they get around the retail sales problem by signing them up as preferred customers and converting them when they actually recruit someone. This way the failed bottom of the pyramid looks like customers. It look likes a loophole to support a pyramid scheme. The only way it works is if preferred customers can not be converted to distributors.
Of course when you look at the churn of preferred customers that is sometimes 90% a year, it becomes easier to see that they aren’t really customers.]
Lazy Man said: Editor’s Note: Or could they be from distributors who paid for product to qualify, but realized the MLM standard 99% failure rate who left and realized that they can’t sell it. And if people are buying retail packages at a volume discount and reselling them, that’s certainly legal right?
I suppose you are correct, they could be Ambassadors that got in over their heads and decided to clearance out the inventory on Amazon and eBay. Doesn’t make much sense though considering qualification would only require a small purchase. Most of the sellers I just looked at on Amazon had varying numbers of offerings so it’s hard to say. Yes is if a retail customer bought retail packages that would be legal. The restriction applies only to active Ambassadors.
[Editor’s Response: If you already have product, why would you want to buy more of it for qualification purposes? That doesn’t make much sense.]
Lazy man said: If a company is interested in retail sales (instead of pyramiding) and is an “Internet” business as you say, why would they prohibit legitimate retail sales over some of the Internet’s biggest websites? It doesn’t make any business sense.
That would get into some underlying business philosophy that I’m not privilege to. As I mentioned in an earlier post Plexus does have their own retail website and Ambassador’s web sites are a replication of that of that site. Competition? Price control? Sorry I don’t have a better answer.
[Editor’s Response: Well as Harper’s Magazine wrote after exposing Mary Kay’s pink pyramid, “They couldn’t have it all because Mary Kay’s business model (like that of any multilevel-marketing enterprise) is designed primarily to profit from, rather than enrich, its workforce.”
It becomes hard to profit from your workforce if the product is easily available on Amazon or Ebay. It also goes a long way to explaining the $34.95 fee, doesn’t it?
This is so common in MLM that I instinctively figured it must be in Plexus as well and gave them credit when I didn’t see it. However, now that you point it out, we’re back to dealing with it. I don’t think you can say it is “some underlying business philosophy that I’m not privilege to” when it’s pervasive through MLM. If Plexus was alone in this, that argument may fly, but it they aren’t.]
Jen said: Papa Hoover then why were you arguing about regular coffee. You originally said frappachino then pivoted to plain coffee. The article you posted was about plain coffee. A frappachino is not a regular coffee it going to cost more than a coffee. There a are more steps to making it. Also again you are assuming that your customer will not only go to Starbucks everyday but will also be buying the most expensive and unhealthy drink they have.So for your “perceived value” thing to work your customer you are trying to sale plexus to would have to drink a very unhealthy drink everyday. With that sales strategy you will lose someone who doesn’t do that everyday. I think we have discussed coffee enough now.
I really can’t reconstructed how this pivoted from Frappuccino to plain coffee. I first used the simple term “coffee” in response to one of Lazy Man’s posts.
[Editor’s Correction: Papa wrote: “That’s just plain black coffee.” You did not use the simple term coffee, you went out of the way to differentiate it from other types of coffee drinks.]
Regardless, I don’t feel that I promoted replacing anyone’s coffee with Plexus products. Far be it from me to ask someone to do something I wouldn’t do myself. ;-)
[Editor’s Note: No, you didn’t promote that, but if it wasn’t your intention there was no need to change the subject to coffee.]
Jen said:
Another friend posted this.
“If your friend sells Younique, try it!
If your friend sells Scentsy, try it!
If your friend sells LulaRoe, try it!
If your friend sells Paparazzi, try it!
If your friend sells Posh, try it!
If your friend sells Plexus, try it
Moral of the story, if my friend owned a restaurant… Guess what, I would eat there! If a friend of mine owned a bakery, I would go there! If one of my friends owned a dance studio, I would have my child take lessons there.
So the next time you are walking into a Yankee candle, think about your friend who sells Scentsy and how she has a daughter to put through college.
Next time you walk into Sephora, think about that Younique beauty rep who has an 8 month old and is trying to buy a house.
Next time you go to GNC think about your friend who sells Plexus and how she is a stay at home mom trying to help her husband pay the bills and build a legacy for her kids.
Next time you go into Bath & Body Works, think about that friend who sells Perfectly Posh. <3
At the end of the day these big corporations are going to give absolutely NOTHING back to you, but when you help a small business owner you're not only helping them but you're also helping put money back into our economy"
This person does not sell plexus. She does sell one of the other things mentioned. This post tries to make you feel bad for sticking with a product you like and not buying what could be a lesser product from your friends. If you have to guilt trip people into buying your product maybe it's not a good business plan.
Yeah Jen I've seen many versions of this post from different friends into different MLM products.
I agree with you 100%. If you have to use quilt as a sales tactic you really need to find another way to make money.
Anyone familiar with the Cooper Clinic? They weren’t impressed with Plexus. Enough said. http://doesplexuswork.blogspot.com/2016/06/does-plexus-work_2.html
Papa Hoover said: “For a second there I almost thought you had a pair. (I hope you understand that reference).”
Such a complex metaphor! You’re not talking to a bunch of Plexus drones, so spare us the condescension, ass.
Papa Hoover said: “For me, getting involved in a MLM was just one more thing on my bucket list.”
Congrats. You officially have the worst bucket list — ever!
Papa Hoover said: “Like many of you, I was skeptical of the whole MLM thing but decided to give it a try.”
I’m far past skeptical. I know enough about MLM to be completely dismissive.
Papa Hoover said: “As for the potential income, I won’t bore you with my own personal financial data…”
Why not? You’re boring me profusely with all the off topic BS you write so why not bore me with some details that are actually relevant.
?Papa Hoover said: “So why did I get involved in this blog you may wonder.”
Nope. Didn’t wonder for even a split second. We can all easily spot a sociopathic troll when we see one.
Papa Hoover said: “I get involved in a lot of blogs…It’s just another one of my hobbies. LOL.”
Your hobbies are even more laughably boring than your stupid bucket list.
?Papa Hoover said: “Now Geoff don’t be thinking I’ve decided your a worthy opponent quite yet. You did earn yourself a promotion to “whipping boy” though. Great job there Geoff!”
Geoff has cleaned your clock several times over. If you don’t realize that it’s you who is the whipping boy then you’re even dumber than everyone surmised.
Papa Hoover said: “My suggestion that you research the ingredients is based on my own research on the therapeutic benefits of many of the ingredients in Plexus products.”
Plexus products have no therapeutic benefits and it’s illegal for you to suggest that they do, so just cut the BS.
Papa Hoover said: “If someone isn’t going to see some benefit from the products after 7 days they probably never will.
You’re half right; i.e., the “never will” part.
Papa Hoover said: “Did you think that Plexus Ambassadors run around with an order pad collecting orders and then send them to Plexus for processing?
No, I think they run around looking for that rare desperate idiot who they can exploit, lie to, and steal money from; that is, when they aren’t trolling and spewing crap on blogs like you’ve been doing daily for a about week now.
Papa Hoover said: “Well welcome to the game Adam! Obviously mommy and daddy never taught you about sarcasm as you were growing up. You see Adam, I see Geoff as someone who got sucked into “hero worshipping” Lazy Man.”
Now you’re picking fights with everyone, I see. Anything to avoid discussing facts. You take sociopathic internet trolling to new depths. Ironic that Plexus calls turds like you “ambassadors”. Really, truly f-ing hysterical!
Papa Hoover said: “As for Geoff “beating me like a rented mule”. Are you or have you ever been a boxing fan? Ever hear of Mohamed Ali and his “rope-a-dope” strategy. I’ve only just started with Geoff, keep watching this will get interesting very soon.”
Comparing yourself to Ali??? We’ll add delusions of grandeur to your list of mental disorders.
Papa Hoover said: “’m just here to stir shit up.”
Yeah, no shit! It was already obvious that your end game is to bury this board in white noise. But since you candidly admit that you’re here to be an a-hole and not engage in constructive dialog, there will be no qualms about blocking you, after we tire of mauling you like a cat’s chew toy. ?
As for your tirade about SBUX, it might be reLevant to MLM if SBUX were charging $30 for a cup of coffee, which is roughly equivalent to the pricing differential between virtually all MLM products versus their retail counterparts, since stupidly inflated prices are necessary to cover MLM distributor payouts — a fatal flaw baked into all MLM models. ?
[Editor’s Response: Good correction, but can we agree that #6 seems to require recruiting/sponsoring as I pointed out? Also, the growing a massive organization (or whatever the quote was) from preferred customers appears to be pitching the virtues of creating a downline, so it is my opinion that #10 also has a recruitment componenent.]
Lazy Man my point in listing #6 is that you can all the downline structure you want, if the downline Ambassadors only qualify and they have no customers who purchased products you will not receive any income under that category.
OK I think we have a semantics issue here when your say #10 has a recruitment component are you referring to recruiting Ambassadors or Preferred Customers.
Well Lazy Man it’s been fun but I think it’s time for me to get to the point and move on.
What drew my attention to your blog in the first place was the information in your article related to Plexus Accelerator+ containing DMAA and being banned in Australia (BTW it was also band in Canada and New Zealand for a while too).
One of the many hazards of using the internet today to do research is that information stays out there forever or until it’s deleted/updated by the author. Time passes and situations change that invalidates a lot of the available information. I feel that this is the case related to the DMAA information in you article.
You seem like a responsible journalist and I would just like to suggest that you consider either updating the article so the information reflects the situation today or maybe add an editor’s note with the current information.
Then again you can do nothing. That’s up to you.
Thanks for letting most of my posts go through and good luck with this and your other internet businesses.
Cheers.
Hmmm… it only took a few dozen comments (maybe an exaggeration) for you to get legitimate point. I’ll happily correct the article, but I couldn’t verify your information and I noticed you didn’t include a link to updated information.
If you can give me more (and reputable) information I’ll update it.
I’ll have to work on a reputable source for you Lazy Man. The only reference I could on a quick search was Plexus Australia and I didn’t think you wouldn’t consider that reputable. Government retractions are about as hard to find as journalist retractions. ;-)
At the very least you could easily verify that the banned products are once again available on Amazon. So at least they we’re satisfied that DMAA had been removed.
Thanks Papa Hoover, but I don’t know enough about Amazon’s Australia website. What I was looking for is a press release from Plexus stating the controversial ingredient has been removed or something of that nature. I’d trust Plexus to say they’ve changed their ingredients.
Papa, no comment on the smackdown from Cooper Clinic mentioned previously?
Vogel said: Comparing yourself to Ali??? We’ll add delusions of grandeur to your list of mental disorders.
How did you ever get that from my comment? I simply suggested I was using his ring strategy on Geoff. Ali was a great American and I would never suggest that.
Please stop twisting my words.
[Editor’s Response: Well as Harper’s Magazine wrote after exposing Mary Kay’s pink pyramid, “They couldn’t have it all because Mary Kay’s business model (like that of any multilevel-marketing enterprise) is designed primarily to profit from, rather than enrich, its workforce.”
It becomes hard to profit from your workforce if the product is easily available on Amazon or Ebay. It also goes a long way to explaining the $34.95 fee, doesn’t it?
This is so common in MLM that I instinctively figured it must be in Plexus as well and gave them credit when I didn’t see it. However, now that you point it out, we’re back to dealing with it. I don’t think you can say it is “some underlying business philosophy that I’m not privilege to” when it’s pervasive through MLM. If Plexus was alone in this, that argument may fly, but it they aren’t.]
Lazy Man I’m finding it a bit frustrating that you continue to apply your knowledge of other MLM’s to Plexus. Unlike the Mary Kay’s, Amways and It Works (which is a direct competitor), Plexus Ambassadors are not required to purchase or use Plexus products.
Going back to the example in the Compensation Plan that we both dislike. The document states:
“If each qualified member only does a minimum of $100 per month”
It does not state that the Ambassador must buy $100 worth of product. That leaves the only other option of each Ambassador in the structure to sell $100 worth of product to Preferred Customers. Usually that would take signing two Preferred Customers which I found from my own personal experience to be quite easy.
As for your comment related to the $34.95. Just so you’re aware the websites, Ambassador replicated website, Ambassadors Back Offices and Customer Portals are not provided by Plexus but have been built and are maintained by a 3rd party provider. I doubt very seriously that the entire $34.95 ends up as Plexus profit.
Go read the Harper’s Magazine that I quoted again, it specifically said, “(like that of any multilevel-marketing enterprise).” Last I checked that included Plexus. If you have a problem with it, email their editors and get them to print a retraction. Let me know when they get that updated for you.
It looks to me that distributors do have to be qualified and qualification can come from buying products (usually referred to Personal Volume. In fact, Plexus’ qualification is so bad that they are happy to put you in program to automatically buy products on your behalf… “If you do NOT have $100 Personal Volume during the month, you will not be qualified to receive checks from Plexus. We never want that to happen to one of our Ambassadors. That’s why we have put the Backup Order (AutoQualification) program in place. Here’s how it works: if by the 25th of the month you do not have your required $100 in Personal Volume, your Backup Order (AutoQualification) will automatically execute a qualifying purchase on your behalf. This makes sure that you qualify for the month.”
Another way to make sure you qualify… eliminate the qualification requirement.
As I asked before, where is Plexus giving transparent information on how many people are purchasing products to require vs. having preferred customers? And are these TRUE preferred customers that can’t be converted to distributors… no.
I know that the backoffices are usually provided by 3rd parties. They certainly shouldn’t be charging ~$35 per year, per seat. If they are, Plexus “Worldwide” should cover the cost of their IT systems.
I just had a fraudulent charge on my credit card from this company. I never heard of it before, so I googled it and ended up here.
I’m not surprised this entire company is a scam.
Yes Kenneth they are a scam and you’re not the first person this has happened to. If you and others would contact the FTC as well as the BBB we may see fewer occurrences of this.
FTC: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/GettingStarted?NextQID=67&Url=%23%26panel1-7#crnt
FTC PHONE: (202) 326-2222
BBB –
https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complaints/file-a-complaint/get-started
More places to file complaints, but start with top two. http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/resources-to-file-complaints.html
Keneth Ashe said: I just had a fraudulent charge on my credit card from this company. I never heard of it before, so I googled it and ended up here.
I’m not surprised this entire company is a scam.
I strongly suggest you contact your bank today to verify if there were any other charges against your card.
Papa Hoover,
Since Keneth Ashe is a Certified Public Accountant according to his website, I’m going to guess he doesn’t need your advice to contact his bank. Let’s presume he did that.
Lazy man said: Thanks Papa Hoover, but I don’t know enough about Amazon’s Australia website. What I was looking for is a press release from Plexus stating the controversial ingredient has been removed or something of that nature. I’d trust Plexus to say they’ve changed their ingredients.
Papa, no comment on the smackdown from Cooper Clinic mentioned previously?
Yeah I looked at the AMAZON AU website myself last night. Looks to be a front for Kindle and that’s it.
Actually the banned product list that is floating around from 2014 was from AMAZON.COM not AMAZON.AU. I found this on Betty’s blog.
http://www.plexuspoint.com/plexus-slim-reviews/
She clearly states AMAZON.COM in the text. If you search Plexus accelerator you’ll see 2 listings.
LMAO @ “smackdown”. I actually found the video clip to be quite a neutral evaluation on the Plexus products so I didn’t feel a need to comment. She clearly states she can’t make an evaluation based on the label information provided. That’s a fair statement.
It did however peak my interests in the label information. Although Plexus products have not been approved by the FDA, Plexus does have to comply with the FDA labeling requirement as does any other supplement or food product. In my quick review of the information it appears that although there is a requirement to list all ingredients, there is no requirement to list the amount of each ingredient.
Here’s a link the the FDA Labeling requirements:
http://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/DietarySupplements/ucm2006823.htm
Papa you are jumping all over the place… I don’t think I got the banned product list from Amazon.com or Amazon.AU. I cited the Australian government website. I’m not sure were Betty’s blog comes into play with regard as verifiable information that the product is no longer banned… and what resulted in the change that you claiming.
If you think that was a neutral view from the Cooper Clinic, you must surely find my article positively glowing about Plexus.
Pretty much every supplement, of which there are tens or hundreds of thousands, comply with the FDA Labeling requirements. Throw in all the foods out there that comply and this is like stating that generally living people have heart beats… it doesn’t mean anything useful.
However, if a supplement can show that it is useful for something specific to the FDA, you can find it on this list: Health Claims Meeting Significant Scientific Agreement (SSA). I didn’t find any Plexus products on that list.
Not trying to argue about coffee again but you ignored my point about how Plexus sells products that claim do the same thing as Coffee and engery drinks with out the negative effects of caffeine. My friend just posted this. It’s just about engery drinks but I have seen similar pots a of coffee. So some people are not doing perceived value they are to get you to replace the cost. Here is the post:
“If you’re a fan of “energy” drinks, you might be interested in this tidbit:
For every 20 oz of Sugar Free Red Bull you drink, it takes nearly one gallon of water to flush it out of your kidneys.
Plexus is a natural, plant-based alternative for sustained energy. When you’re ready to give it a try, let’s talk. “
Go read the Harper’s Magazine that I quoted again, it specifically said, “(like that of any multilevel-marketing enterprise).” Last I checked that included Plexus. If you have a problem with it, email their editors and get them to print a retraction. Let me know when they get that updated for you.
[Papa’s response: The author of the Harper’s article seems to suffer from the same “all MLM’s are evil” prejudice that you do. Once again, comparing any MLM that requires distributors/ambassador to purchase product to become qualified to Plexus is comparing apples to oranges.]
It looks to me that distributors do have to be qualified and qualification can come from buying products (usually referred to Personal Volume. In fact, Plexus’ qualification is so bad that they are happy to put you in program to automatically buy products on your behalf… “If you do NOT have $100 Personal Volume during the month, you will not be qualified to receive checks from Plexus. We never want that to happen to one of our Ambassadors. That’s why we have put the Backup Order (AutoQualification) program in place. Here’s how it works: if by the 25th of the month you do not have your required $100 in Personal Volume, your Backup Order (AutoQualification) will automatically execute a qualifying purchase on your behalf. This makes sure that you qualify for the month.”
[Papa’s response: I’ll assume that you quoted reference from Plexus is accurate. With that said, although Ambassadors are required to have a current Backup Order and have a PV 100 one-hundred those requirements do not have to be satisfied when they first sign up as Ambassadors nor is the backup Order generated automatically as part of the sign-up process. Here’s how that works:
1) Go to an Ambassador’s website
2) Join Plexus as an Ambassador
3) Provide and complete the necessary information
4) DO NOT! Buy any product or create a backup
order
5) Provide the necessary credit car information to
pay the $3496 membership fee.
To become commission qualified:
1) Sell enough Plexus product to customers so that
the PV from those orders add up to 100 PV
minimum. I’d recommend 2 or 3 customer in case
one decides to cancel during the month.
2) Log into your EVO account and create a Backup
order. Your backup order will never ship
because the PV from your customer sales is over
100.
3) On the 24th of the month go log into your EVO
account to verify you current PV is over 100.
If your PV is under 100 delete your backup
order.
4) Try again next month.
]
Another way to make sure you qualify… eliminate the qualification requirement.
[Papa’s response: Nice try Lazy Man, I’ll pass on this one]
As I asked before, where is Plexus giving transparent information on how many people are purchasing products to require vs. having preferred customers? And are these TRUE preferred customers that can’t be converted to distributors… no.
[Papa’s response: As you are well aware Lazy Man, Plexus is a privately held company and is not subject to the same reporting requirements as publicly help companies. With that said, I’m pretty sure the data is available. Several of the reports in my Back Office allow me to review my current network and indicates the current “rank” of all my customers/ambassador/associates.
As for your “True Preferred Customers” comment. I find your use of that term invalid. It’s invalid because the Preferred Customer alone decides whether he/she wants to convert to an Ambassador. Your argument would only be valid if that decision was made by Plexus or the Preferred Customer’s sponsor and they were forced to convert.]
I know that the backoffices are usually provided by 3rd parties. They certainly shouldn’t be charging ~$35 per year, per seat. If they are, Plexus “Worldwide” should cover the cost of their IT systems.
[Papa’s response: Lazy Man, I’m having a hard time understanding why this $34.95 membership fee is such a big issue in this discuss. Let’s not forget that Ambassador’s who also decide to buy Plexus products will save more than that amount in less than 3 months (assuming a 100 PV order each month). As an active Ambassador, let me tell you, having that Back Office for the cost of less than 10 cents a day, saves me hours every week. The fact that I can access it from my smartphone makes it even more valuable. Sorry I think it well worth the cost.]
Papa said, “Once again, comparing any MLM that requires distributors/ambassador to purchase product to become qualified to Plexus is comparing apples to oranges.”
You seem to be stuck on the difference between the ideas of “requiring someone to be qualified which can (and I believe typically happens by buying product)” and “requiring one to buy product.” I’m referring to the former and you keep on harping about the later which I’m not (or is anyone else to my knowledge) referring to.
Many MLMs have this structure of qualifying through preferred customers, but it’s hard to know if that happens. I’ve asked you a few times for Plexus’ statistics on this. If 95% are qualifying that way, I only view it as a minor problem. If it’s only 5%, that seems to be a big issue.
And while you are right that private companies don’t need to report this information, even publicly traded MLMs don’t need to. I believe this stuff is important in the post-Vemma MLM/pyramid scheme debate. If we had known that a vast majority in Vemma was buying product to qualify rather than having true customers, it would have been easier to say, “Hey there aren’t many retail customers here.”
My point is that while there’s no requirement for Plexus to report this information, a “good” MLM would offer it. That’s fair logic, right?
Afterall, if they said something like “one can also achieve 100 PV for the month by beating LeBron James in 1-on-1” then buying is not a “requirement” either.
Either way, let’s ensure that “Plexus is good” (in direct response to your “all MLMs are evil” quote) by making sure they just eliminate qualification altogether. And of course you don’t want to talk about that. I think it is an easy move for any legitimate company. Can we agree on that?
Papa said, “As for your ‘True Preferred Customers’ comment. I find your use of that term invalid. It’s invalid because the Preferred Customer alone decides whether he/she wants to convert to an Ambassador. Your argument would only be valid if that decision was made by Plexus or the Preferred Customer’s sponsor and they were forced to convert.”
Maybe you’d understand it better from a Pro-MLM site, MLM.com: “If the ‘51% rule’ becomes an industry-wide practice like the 70% rule, companies may register each new member as a customer, and then transition them to distributors only when they begin to recruit.”
You can find it invalid, but if you read the article and understand the context, it’s an attempt to say, “Hey the people at the bottom are just customers and not trying to recruit.” If you read the article, it explains how to subvert the FTC guidelines in the post-Vemma MLM world.
So while I respect your opinion to find it invalid, this is not a new idea. I don’t see how people can be simply allowed to convert over. If so, Vemma could have run an effectively equivalent scheme of which the court agreed a pyramid (according to my understanding.)
Hope that helps.
You made the $34.95 a big deal. I simply pointed that it doesn’t make sense in the world where replicated websites are essentially free since it is mostly a several entries in a database. The amount of traffic down by the websites are probably not too much. I’m betting this website of mine does more traffic than 99.5% of Plexus distributors and it’s much more complex as it isn’t replicated. So 99.5% of distributors are perhaps paying $100,000 a year for their websites… depending on how many distributors Plexus has. I can assure you I pay much, much less.
Lazy Man said: Since Keneth Ashe is a Certified Public Accountant according to his website, I’m going to guess he doesn’t need your advice to contact his bank. Let’s presume he did that.
[Papa’s response: Yep if he’s a CPA he probably knows to do that. It’s amazing though how many people don’t have a clue what to do in that situation. Sorry if I offended you Keneth. It was not my intent.]
Papa writes:
“Sell enough Plexus product to customers so that
the PV from those orders add up to 100 PV
minimum. I’d recommend 2 or 3 customer in case
one decides to cancel during the month.”
What? Why would anyone cancel? Plexus products CURE people of: alcoholism, clinical behavior disorders, cancer, eczema, endometriosis, infertility, post-traumatic stress disorder, and numerous conditions. Lest we forget weight loss, ‘gut health’, male pattern baldness and more! The aforementioned claims, sans the male pattern baldness, have been posted by ‘Ambassadors’ for Plexus.
MLM’s are just a long con.
Papa Hoover GIVE IT UP honey! The ONLY way you make money in Plexus is if you have your auto ship on for $100 min. Sure, you can JOIN for the $34.95, but if you want to make money, you must be “ACTIVE”, aka: buying $100 min a month. So yeah, you DO have to buy product just as in any other MLM company if you want a commission.
Obviously your Plexus business isn’t going very well or you wouldn’t have so much time on your hands to participate in so many blogs.
Actions speak loudly for themselves.
Jen said: Not trying to argue about coffee again but you ignored my point about how Plexus sells products that claim do the same thing as Coffee and engery drinks with out the negative effects of caffeine. My friend just posted this. It’s just about engery drinks but I have seen similar pots a of coffee. So some people are not doing perceived value they are to get you to replace the cost. Here is the post:
“If you’re a fan of “energy” drinks, you might be interested in this tidbit:
For every 20 oz of Sugar Free Red Bull you drink, it takes nearly one gallon of water to flush it out of your kidneys.
Plexus is a natural, plant-based alternative for sustained energy. When you’re ready to give it a try, let’s talk. “
[Papa’s response: Sorry Jen I wasn’t ignoring your response I just hadn’t formulated a comment yet. Yes, I’ve seen Plexus Amabassadors make those same claims about replacing coffee and energy drinks. I don’t recall that I’ve ever made such a claim myself. With that said, I personally haven’t needed my afternoon coffee to stay awake after lunch since starting Plexus Slim and I do just happen to have a customer who has replaced their energy drinks with Plexus Slim.
One needs to keep in mind that there’s no real science behind Plexus products and the benefits derived from their consumption varyies by the individual.]
Papa Hoover said, “One needs to keep in mind that there’s no real science behind Plexus products and the benefits derived from their consumption varyies by the individual.”
Hmmm, that sounds to me like there’s no real science behind and the benefits of its consumption varies by the individual… except that we know the benefits of toast. They are pretty universal. It would be weird if someone eating toast grew wings and flew… while another shrunk to the size of an ant.
If you were to take those words a step further, they could describe a placebo pill that is known scientifically to contain no effective ingredient. Yet the benefits depend up on the individual. This sounds to me exactly like MonaVie’s “expensive flavored water” (not my words) and the number of crazy claims surrounding that.
Papa you are jumping all over the place… I don’t think I got the banned product list from Amazon.com or Amazon.AU. I cited the Australian government website. I’m not sure were Betty’s blog comes into play with regard as verifiable information that the product is no longer banned… and what resulted in the change that you claiming.
[Papa’s response: You got me on that one Lazy Man. I’ve gotten so twisted up in trying to track this down I’ve actually given up trying to research it myself. Early today I sent your questions to Plexus for clarification. If/when they respond and if I can share the information with you I will do so]
If you think that was a neutral view from the Cooper Clinic, you must surely find my article positively glowing about Plexus.
[Papa’s response: LMAO about your article “positively glowing about Plexus”. Not! I assume that are differing views on Plexus causes us to interpret the information in the video differently. I think you’ll agree that a real possibility.
As for the rest of your comments, I’m not ignoring them, I’m accepting them as being valid comments.]
You seem to be stuck on the difference between the ideas of “requiring someone to be qualified which can (and I believe typically happens by buying product)” and “requiring one to buy product.” I’m referring to the former and you keep on harping about the later which I’m not (or is anyone else to my knowledge) referring to.
[Papa’s response: We seem to be splitting hairs here. If an Ambassador needs to be qualified to receive commissions there are only two ways to accomplish that, buy products or sell products. Personally I have no problem with either approach.]
Many MLMs have this structure of qualifying through preferred customers, but it’s hard to know if that happens. I’ve asked you a few times for Plexus’ statistics on this. If 95% are qualifying that way, I only view it as a minor problem. If it’s only 5%, that seems to be a big issue.
[Papa’s response: If those statistics do exists (and I’m sure they do some where) I don’t have access to them and they don’t seem to be available on the internet that I can find. I do agree that if the structure is a 95/5 distribution that would be problematic. In my current network I have 6 Preferred Customers and 5 Ambassadors. Of those 5 Ambassador’s only 4 of them were commission qualified in May. I have no way of determining if that’s typical or not.]
And while you are right that private companies don’t need to report this information, even publicly traded MLMs don’t need to. I believe this stuff is important in the post-Vemma MLM/pyramid scheme debate. If we had known that a vast majority in Vemma was buying product to qualify rather than having true customers, it would have been easier to say, “Hey there aren’t many retail customers here.”
[Papa’s response: Agreed, that does make sense. There is a component of Plexus that I haven’t previously mentioned only because even though I’ve been told numbers I haven’t been able to verify them. A certain portion of Plexus sales revenue is still generated from it’s original website to retail customers. This doesn’t compete against Ambassadors because 50% of the profit from that revenue is also included in the Ambassador compensation pool.]
My point is that while there’s no requirement for Plexus to report this information, a “good” MLM would offer it. That’s fair logic, right?
[Papa’s response: Agreed. As I said previously, that information may in fact be available and I haven’t been able to find it. I suppose I would try requesting it from Plexus and see if I get a response.]
Afterall, if they said something like “one can also achieve 100 PV for the month by beating LeBron James in 1-on-1” then buying is not a “requirement” either.
[Papa’s response: Humor? I like it. But I’m confused by the comment. I’ve already establish and means and process of qualify through sales not buying (although you haven’t commented on that) isn’t that a valid alternative approach?]
Either way, let’s ensure that “Plexus is good” (in direct response to your “all MLMs are evil” quote) by making sure they just eliminate qualification altogether. And of course you don’t want to talk about that. I think it is an easy move for any legitimate company. Can we agree on that?
[Papa’s response: It’s not that I don’t want to discuss the qualification issue. Having been involved in managing companies and working with commissioned people during my career, I’m familiar with the importance of creating consistent revenue streams and graduated commission schemes with qualification levels. Since this is my first MLM experience, I’m not sure what alternatives MLM’s would have to qualification.]
Maybe you’d understand it better from a Pro-MLM site, MLM.com: “If the ‘51% rule’ becomes an industry-wide practice like the 70% rule, companies may register each new member as a customer, and then transition them to distributors only when they begin to recruit.”
[Papa’s response: Interestingly enough the 51% rule is the approach that I’ve been using to develop my network. The approach makes a lot of sense but so do the potential drawback that were mentioned.]
You can find it invalid, but if you read the article and understand the context, it’s an attempt to say, “Hey the people at the bottom are just customers and not trying to recruit.” If you read the article, it explains how to subvert the FTC guidelines in the post-Vemma MLM world.
So while I respect your opinion to find it invalid, this is not a new idea. I don’t see how people can be simply allowed to convert over. If so, Vemma could have run an effectively equivalent scheme of which the court agreed a pyramid (according to my understanding.)
Hope that helps.
[Papa’s response: Actually it helps a lot. Thanks]
You made the $34.95 a big deal. I simply pointed that it doesn’t make sense in the world where replicated websites are essentially free since it is mostly a several entries in a database. The amount of traffic down by the websites are probably not too much. I’m betting this website of mine does more traffic than 99.5% of Plexus distributors and it’s much more complex as it isn’t replicated. So 99.5% of distributors are perhaps paying $100,000 a year for their websites… depending on how many distributors Plexus has. I can assure you I pay much, much less.
[Papa’s response: As an IT professional myself I think that your comments related to the relative cost of replicated website is very valid. However, let’s not forget that Ambassadors receive other benefits from the annual membership fees, some of which I’ve touched on in previous comments. Personally, I don’t see that the membership fee plays a major role in our continued discussion, so I’d like to suggest we removed it from further discussion. Agreed?]
Papa said, “We seem to be splitting hairs here. If an Ambassador needs to be qualified to receive commissions there are only two ways to accomplish that, buy products or sell products. Personally I have no problem with either approach.”
It seems to me that regulators feel very differently about that than you do. In my opinion, it’s the furthest thing from splitting hairs as it speaks to whether the purchases are for qualification or retail sales. Personally, I’m fine with the approach that can’t mask a pyramid scheme which in my opinion means eliminating qualification.
Papa said, “If those statistics do exists (and I’m sure they do some where) I don’t have access to them and they don’t seem to be available on the internet that I can find. I do agree that if the structure is a 95/5 distribution that would be problematic.”
And that’s kind of the problem. The statistics do exist, but they aren’t being made available (as far as I can tell either). It would be shocking if it was available and public, because I’ve never seen an MLM provide it. And if they do provide it, I’d want to be sure that independently verified. An honor system doesn’t work. Shouldn’t we have transparency to know if there’s a problem? If there was a 95% chance your plane could crash, wouldn’t you like to know this? Or would you say, “Hey, that’s not a number the manufacturer needs to report, so let’s move on.”
Papa said, “A certain portion of Plexus sales revenue is still generated from it’s original website to retail customers. This doesn’t compete against Ambassadors because 50% of the profit from that revenue is also included in the Ambassador compensation pool.”
Please let’s not open the can of worms of how messed up this is.
Papa said, “I’ve already establish and means and process of qualify through sales not buying (although you haven’t commented on that) isn’t that a valid alternative approach?”
What you’ve suggested is a valid alternative approach, but I don’t believe people qualify through preferred customers legitimately happens very often. I’ve written Why Would Anyone Buy an MLM Product? which covers 3 reasons why it simply doesn’t make sense for people to buy MLM products. As we covered preferred customers might not really be customers, but just recruiters in training who haven’t recruited. Also, there’s the problem of people who may be legitimate customers, but only because they are given marking that the Plexus products help with a medical condition. I don’t count these as legitimate customers.
When I combine all these reasons together, I don’t find this alternative very compelling. It’s not as bad as beating LeBron James in 1-on-1, but I’m glad you got the humor in the comparison. It gets less compelling when Plexus seems to have a policy of automatically buying product for you to qualify if you don’t meet this alternative.
Papa said, “Personally, I don’t see that the membership fee plays a major role in our continued discussion, so I’d like to suggest we removed it from further discussion. Agreed?”
Sure, it’s minor and I reserve to bring it back around later on. I use DogVacay to sit dogs and as an independent contractor, I don’t pay any fee for the website. There’s no membership fee of any kind. I don’t think Uber or AirBnb charges membership fees either. You get the same replicated sites and back-end systems. Of the top of my head, I think th concept of shifting the costs of these things to the salesperson only seems to exist in MLM.
Lazy Man, I don’t think calling the video a “smackdown” is an over exaggeration. The lady said that the supplements in the products could be beneficial if there was enough of the supplement in the product. She pointed out that Plexus does not publish how much of a certain supplement is in the product. Basically she said there is a big chance that these products are useless. If I wanted a supplement I would want to know how much I was taking.
Again my point is Plexus wants you to sell it as a replacement cost. It’s irrelevant if that’s what you are doing. It’s obvious to me. Plexus says they have a product that gives you energy like an energy drink or coffee but it has no sugar or caffeine. So it’s “healthier” than coffee and engery drinks. To me it’s a replacement cost. As a sales strategy replacement cost makes more sense than perceived value (at least when referring to energy drinks or coffee). Why would you want your client to keep drinking “unhealthy” drinks when you have a “healthy” option to replace it. Not saying replacement cost is a good sales strategy just better than perceived value in this situation. I do not expect most customers to stop drinking coffee or energy drinks.
To recap both sales strategies are bad.
Why is this conversation still going on? If Plexis was sold it the store it would be out of business in 3 to 6 months because the product is a joke. So the fact that is in business says it’s the MLM scam. Papa is never going to convince a thinking person different.
And that my friends, is what you call PINKWASHED.