Today, I have either a treat or a punishment for readers. It all depends on the point of view. I had called a company, One24, out for having characteristics of being a scam and pyramid scheme (the FTC’s guidelines were critical in making that call). It has recently come to my attention that One24 has responded to my One24 Scam article in one of their recent podcasts.
The result is an extremely long article combating the misinformation that they spread over their marketing channel. If you like soap operas that have a high potential to turn into public lawsuits, I invite you to grab a cold drink (or 3) and enjoy the show. If you like quick articles about learning how to save money as I typically write let me direct you here. I realize this article is targeted to a small minority of Lazy Man and Money readers. However, because it is possible to save that minority thousands of dollars, I feel it is one of the more articles I’ve written. If you aren’t part of the minority, it might be best to just move on. You’ve been warned.
The One24 Podcast title “The Scam” can be downloaded here. I recommend you keep my article open for reference.
Before I go any further, I should mention that the company doesn’t mention me or my article by name, but it’s clear that they are address my article. They cover nearly every point point from beginning to end. I guess their lawyers realized that One24’s threat to sue me for defamation had no legal ground. It seems this is their plan B. I think I irk them because I rank at the top of Google searches for “One24.” It makes me a prime target for the company.
Finally, I want to thank the people reading and comment on such articles. If it weren’t for one astute commenter, I would have missed the podcast and not been able to respond to it. Perhaps One24’s plan was to address their PCs (product distributors) directly and not give me the chance for a rebuttal.
To help make this long article go a little easier on you, I’ve divided it into sections.
The Format of the Podcast
The format of this podcast alone should raise red flags about the company. As one commenter, CGC, put it, it is presented as “a scripted ‘interview’, infomercial.” It is a podcast called “Inside One24” which is “exclusively produced” for One24 distributors. In the greeting of President Joe Perry, Phillip Gerogeson asks, “Have you run out of places to pinch yourself as to where this company has taken you in the last few months?” The answer from Joe Perry is, “It’s been an incredible ride.” This is the kind of scripted commentary from the company’s PR person to the company’s president.
You’ll find other bits of marketing throughout the interview. At the end, they do a recap where the interviewer pats the interviewee on the back with comments like, “I think that was tremendously stated” and “Joe hit the ball right out of the park”, “and I thought he really nailed it there.”
It must be pretty easy to nail points in an scripted marketing piece directed to distributors of the company. Let’s hope that those involved in One24 are smart enough to see this marketing for the scam that it is.
The Effect of “The Scam”
The first thing the podcast says is that:
“whatever is being misrepresented or said is not making one dent in the resolve of you our PCs. And I want to make sure that is first of all very clear.”
Before getting to the slanderous use of “misrepresented”, I would like to dispute that my article isn’t making a dent.
First, the company doesn’t have information on every PC to know if it is making a dent or a landslide. They aren’t at every showing of the product and/or plan. This is clearly a piece of marketing. They have to say it isn’t making a dent, because to say otherwise would cause panic.
Secondly, this appears to be a lie. If it wasn’t impacting PCs they wouldn’t have threatened me with a law suit. More importantly if it wasn’t impacting PCs, they wouldn’t have to create a podcast directed towards PCs on the topic. As they said, they “lined-up the top gun to handle this, and to meet this information head on, and that’s our president, Joe Perry.” Clearly getting the president to address the concerns is a sign that this is an important issue. In fact, Joe Perry hasn’t been involved in any of the previous podcasts according his introduction in this podcast. Actions speak louder than words here.
Finally, there is nothing “misrepresented” in my article. If there is, the company is welcome to enter in the debate in my comments just like many of their PCs have. Those PCs have tried and all have failed, just like the company would. Getting back to why they don’t have the guts to mention me by name – perhaps it’s because they know that I’d be the one able to sue them for defamation for claiming that I misrepresented others.
Questioning the My Motives
Philip Georgeson says, “The next aspect that we have to discover or certainly analyze is why this is happening. And in most cases we can only speculate. But you do notice a pattern that in… not just One24, but in other growth companies where they begin to reach a successful mark in which attention is drawn to it because of their success your detractors will come out of the woodwork and purport misinformation in order to knock momentum, or take away from them or certainly keep them from impeding on them as competition.”
Since the company is clearly targeting me and my article, I feel I should respond.
I have to ask here is what is their definition of “growth” companies. I love growth companies. In fact, I invest a lot of my money in growth companies. I don’t know anyone that was against Groupon as a growth company, do you? This is a red herring fallacy.
Secondly, the podcast makes a point that the reason that I target them is because they are my competition. What competition is that? I’m not involved in any MLM companies. I do not make or sell or any products similar to One24.
Finally, One24 tries to spin this as a sign of success. They should step off their high horse. I got two emails in a couple of days because their distributors wanted to recruit me due to my connection of writing about MonaVie and Nerium. I didn’t write about One24 due to their “success”, I wrote about them because One24 distributors (PCs) claimed the business was a path to retirement. As a personal finance blogger that caught my eye. It’s kind of humorous that a company like One24 judges its level of success by what I write. Perhaps other MLM companies should offer to pay me to write about their scams, right?
Intermission (at the 2:50 mark)
At the 2:50 mark there is a “commercial.” I don’t know what else to call a break to promote a product inside an infomercial about the very same product. A woman says, “Did you know that just one serving of NatraBurst contains more than 6 servings of fruits and vegetables? Did you know that same serving of NatraBurst contains the daily recommended antioxidant protection by the USDA, so what are you waiting for? Take the your burst of nature today.”
Since this podcast is in the business of pointing out “misinformation”, let’s focus on the above. NatraBurst does not contain more than 6 servings of fruits and vegetables. As I pointed out in my original article, this is a lie. MonaVie has used this same lie to claim that drinking 4 ounces of their juice is the same as eating 13 fruits. It turns out that many government agencies got together to quantify servings of fruits/vegetables. The guidelines are very clear. Unfortunately for MonaVie, which is 100% fruit juice, 4 Ounces of MonaVie is 1 Serving of Fruit. It’s worth noting that One24 is not 100% fruit juice (or anything close from its ingredients) and as a liquid can not claim to contain servings of fruit. I explained the difference in my original One24 article. One24 is misleading people into thinking that an ORAC score is the same as eating fruits/vegetables, which this completely false and extremely misleading.
Furthermore the company takes the extra step of saying that USDA has recommended an amount of antioxidant protection. I’ll say there’s a possibility that I’m wrong here, but I really don’t think that the USDA has put out RDA of “antioxidant protection.” Readers, if I’m wrong please correct me and cite a source from the USDA’s official website.
Still doubt that this podcast is about me?
At the 5:45 mark company president Joe Perry claims that “these people have ulterior motives”. “that they take it different directions to try to draw attention to themselves”, and “Unfortunately that’s what we’ve experienced and… I think its the reason for this show in some ways.”
Phillip Georgeson then says, “You and I [company president Joe Perry] got together and it was predominant your idea to do this and I think it was a great one [pat on the back].” If there were any doubts this was staged that should be dispelled.
Georgeson continues, “Forget who is doing it we won’t name, and forget why they may be doing it. Instead we’re going to take what they are saying… and we’re going to actually address it head-on.”
It’s interesting that Georgeson says to forget why they are doing it, when they’ve previously put out misinformation on the topic.
It’s great that they are going to address things head-on, because you can see the parallels with my one24 article.
The podcast is intended to help distributors market the product.
At the 6:30 mark Phillip Georgeson says, “Let’s create this resource if you will. This one more tool. This one more little piece of weaponry that you can take out and address.”
The Naming of One24
Phillip Georgeson says,
“One of the first things and issues and topics that came up in some of the stuff that I’ve researched was that there’s this charge that the concept and name of One24 emphasizes more of a recruiting of customers to a retirement program that leads to large profits by recruiting only and that should in some ways be some sort of a scheme.”
I take some offense by the use of that “only” there. It paints a very “black and white” picture where there are many shades of grey. It’s possible that there are some retail sales. As the podcast admits later on the real profits come from the recruiting aspect.
Company president Joe Perry says, “The name was really used because it represented a mantra that, you know, Mark and I got really excited about and that’s the fact that if you take something and do it consistently, like you can One24, over a 24 month period some really neat things can happen. So obviously the optimum thing that can happen for someone is that in 24 months if they do everything consistently then we are really hoping they can kind of cinch up their future and not worry about their college fund and possibly their retirement. We’re not saying that everyone that gets in One24 is going to retire in 24 months. But I think some people have taken that statement or that thought and pulled the string out and stretched it a little further than it should have been stretched.”
So it would seem that my article is dead on with the company’s focus. In the article, I very specifically quote an email that I received. It said, “The concept is [recruit] one member a month for 24 months (One24), then retire.” I am happy to divulge this email in a court of law. One24 just needs to bring the lawsuit.
In addition, Mr. Perry, gives us a lot to address here. There is nothing magical about a 24-month period. Some “neat things can happen” if you start with a penny and double that investment everyday over a 30 day period… you’d have around 10 million dollars by my calculations. This doesn’t mean that it is realistic. It doesn’t mean that one can do it consistently. It’s great that Mr. Perry and One24 “are really hoping” that PCs can cinch up their future. I’m really hoping you can double that penny’s investment everyday. Point is, it’s extraordinarily unlikely to happen. Mr. Perry and One24 requires you to buy their product to play that game. I’ll let you play the double a penny game for free.
Mr. Perry makes the point that “We’re not saying that everyone that gets in One24 is going to retire in 24 months.” Once again, the podcast is trying to make it a black and white issue. In other words, “We are going to bombard you with images and talk of retirement. We are hoping you will get there. We know that not everyone is. We will not discuss the odds of success, because that might prevent you from buying our product and trying.”
Am I exaggerating about the bombardment of images and talk of retirement? Here’s what a standard PCs page looks like (they all look the same except for the name that I’ve blacked out):
Note that the marketing message on that page (and thousands like it) is centered around retirement and financial security. Perhaps the statement about retirement is being stretched because your marketing people are stretching. This is done to recruit more people to sell your product and make larger profits. It’s worth noting that there’s almost no focus on the product here, but I’ll have more on that later).
One24 as a Pyramid Scheme
The next section (8 minutes into the podcast for those following along) is about “pyramid schemes”. Phillip Georgeson says,
“Any time something like this company as successful as it is pops up the word ‘pyramid scheme’ comes up. It’s obvious to you and I but let’s go over that. How do you respond to the pyramid scheme because if you were to … calculate out the natural progression of enrolling 24 people over one year that eventually you’d run out of people in the whole planet? We actually saw that and… you and I laughed about it but explain why it is so ridiculous.
Before we get to Joe’s response, let’s reflect for a minute on the question. Clearly companies are successful without the word “pyramid scheme” popping up. Here are a few examples, Facebook, Amazon, Ebay, Starbucks, and Google. I don’t see anyone calling them pyramid schemes.
The other part of this question that is worth noting is that it is leading the answer, “It is obvious to you and I”, “laughed about it” and “why it is so ridiculous.” What is humorous about this is that in the recap of the interview at 24:20, Phillip Georgeson says, “… we would blow through the population of the world over time. You know on paper that is probably is true.” It is not just “probably true”, it has been mathematically proven to be true. You can see a depiction of it on Wikipedia’s article of pyramid schemes. Clearly this argument “that is probably true” (according to Phillip Georgeson) is not “so ridiculous” or worth “laughing” about it.
Back to Joe’s repsonse:
“I’ve heard it for more than 30 years… I reminiced that Mark and I, back when we started, a company called Slender Now that… ahh… went to 100 million dollars in sales in less than 3 years. What we did is we were holding meetings in different areas of Florida and we went to one meeting and we had gotten a lady involved as a distributor that was just really, really excited. She didn’t know a lot about this industry. She’s just excited about the product, excited about the opportunity, and her first goal, by the way, was to buy a dishwasher. And ahhh she got excited and enrolled and the next meeting Mark and I came back to and we were training and she had her husband with her and he was sitting in a chair and he a his pocket calculator and he happened to be a CPA and he threw that out in front of everybody just like you just said, ‘Well you know Mark – Joe, if you enrolled 12 people who enrolled 12 people who enrolled 12 people… you are going to saturate the world in X number of months.’ You know the reality is that we’ve been hearing that since back in the 50’s when the first… MLM companies were birthed. And you know something, it’s (MLM saturation) never happened. And by the way that lady continued to go beyond what her husband’s logic was saying and she happened a year later to build a whole new house in Florida around that dishwasher.”
Ahh, so Mr. Joe Perry and Mark Seyforth started Slender Now. I did a little Internet search on that company. I found an L.A. Times article, “Death and Denial at HerbaLife”. Here’s a quote from that:
“In 1976, Mark [Hughes] began selling Slender Now diet products for Seyforth Laboratories, a multilevel marketer, becoming one of its top 100 earners. After Seyforth collapsed in 1979, he sold exercise equipment and weight-control products for Golden Youth, another direct-sales outfit.
While the article is about Mark Hughes, who is not to be confused with Mark Seyforth, it does point out how well Slender Now really did. It may have went to a 100 million dollars in 3 years, but by 1979 it “collapsed.” You know what else “collapses”? Pyramid Schemes. Take a read of Wikipedia’s Pyramid Scheme article and look for the number of occurances of “collapse.” Slender Now was an MLM company that started out really well but ended up collapsing like a pyramid scheme. That doesn’t like the shining example you want to give when trying to convince your distributors (PCs) that they are not involved in a pyramid scheme.
In 1979 when Slender Now collapsed I think that CPA had the opportunity to give the king of “I told you so”s to his wife. It’s odd that Mr. Joe Perry claims that MLM saturation has never happened. If that were the case, he’d still be selling Slender Now and it would still be a growing company, right?
This story of this one successful person is another example of marketing. They aren’t telling you about all the people who lost money when it collapsed. It is like telling the story of the one person who retired with One24 and ignoring the thousands of people who lost hundreds or more buying the overpriced product.
The most important thing here is that he never addresses the logic of the CPA’s point… or the point about the unsustainability of pyramid schemes and MLMs in general. He just tells an isolated success story and glosses over the fact that Slender Now “collapsed” (according to the L.A. Times). It seems to me that the CPA was proven correct. Of course we wouldn’t expect One24 and their marketing people in their marketing Podcast to admit such a thing.
Joe Perry continues,
“It can’t happen. It’s just human nature… it’s never happened. There’s been companies out there and some of the biggest in the industry who do billions of dollars of a year, have very aggressive international marketing plans out there… and it just won’t happen… it’s just not going to happen.”
So Mr. Perry claims it’s never happened which seems to be a lie using his own Slender Now example. In a span of 15 seconds he claimed following, it “can’t happen”, “never happened”, “won’t happen” and “not going to happen.” That’s extraordinary considering the example of “it happening” he just cited with Slender Now.
Finally, I should bring back a point from my original article… the FTC says that “Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes”. This is where the pyramid scheme nature comes into play. Remember that the FTC exists to help consumers and thwart scams.
NatraBurst as an Afterthought
The podcast (at 10:23) makes the claim that the product is not “an afterthought” as I claimed. Specifically Phillip Georgeson says:
“Some out in the cyberworld claim that One24’s product NatraBurst is but an afterthought of the company and not a true focus and actually can be found at auction sites in some cases less at 50% below the retail.”
I give Phillip Georgeson credit for not glossing over the 50% discount of the product on Ebay.
Joe Perry responds:
Natraburst was put together before Mark [Seyforth] and I even talked about One24 and the product was really targetted initially to go health professional marketplace which as you probably know has a pretty high level of scrutiny.”
The first and most important thing you’ll notice is that the “auction sites”… Ebay… with the cheaper productis never addressed. The claim is made that Joe Perry and Mark Seyforth were going to address the health professional marketplace, but as best I can tell, they’ve always done MLM (Joe Perry says he has 30 years of experience later in the podcast). So we are to believe that they weren’t going to go with MLM with NatraBurst, but it turns out that they had this idea for an MLM company, after 30 years in the industry, and decided to switch the product’s distribution method.
I’ll let you the reader be the judge if the product is an afterthrough or not. When I searched Google for “One24”, this was one of the first pages I found was this image that I referenced earlier:
It seems the focus is on the big photo with rotating pictures of various vacation and retirement destinations. Under that picture is the words, “Your Retirement Opportunity.” To the right of that is the one part of the page devoted to the product. To the right of that is another box of testimonials about “financial freedom, security, prosperity.” If you were to divide the above page up into 9 boxes like a tic-tac-toe board, you’d find that about 1/9th of the space is devoted to the product and 8/9s is devoted to “the opportunity.” Sorry to cover this twice in the same long article, but I think it was worth it since it was indirectly addressed twice.
NatraBurst Nutritional Information as Proprietary Information
One of the claims that I made in my original article was:
“They don’t mention how much of these ingredients is in a serving. I could take water from the Pacific Ocean that would surely contain a blend of all these things. The problem is that unless you know how much you are getting, it’s not worth mentioning at all.”
The Podcast made that point that because the product is a food and does not have to disclose its formula. In fact it made the comparison to Coca-Cola (at the 13:20 mark). I must have been extremely psychic because I wrote about MonaVie, Secret Formulas, and Coca-Cola in March of 2010. I’ll repeat the basic points here:
- Coke sells it’s product on taste. It doesn’t bill itself as a health product. We get all the nutritional information we need about the product from its label
- NatraBurst claims to be a health product. Consumers are entitled to know how healthy the product is. Would you buy a multivitamin without knowing the quantity of vitamins in it? Of course not.
The One24 podcast becomes a little wordy so I’ll just quote the summary of this point at 25:50 point of the Podcast.
“this is categorized as a food and gives it that advantage of proprietary content. The reason why is that other dietary supplements must divulge the level of nutrients…”
This makes a mockery of the One24 consumer. There is no advantage for a potential One24 consumer to have this information hidden from them. This is critical information for any “health” product and is necessary to make an informed buying decision about the product. If the company doesn’t want to disclose any more than what’s on its nutritional label, consumers are better off buying Carnation Instant Breakfast for a fraction of the money. Carnation Instant Breakfast does disclose its information.
One24’s Manufacturing Facility
At the 13:45 mark, Joe Perry gives away a more information than I ever hoped he would have:
“There’s people for example that say we want to see your manufacturing facilities and go there for a tour. There are many companies that do that and when we get to our next level of manufacturing we may be set up to do that. But on the other side of it, I’ve been in this industry for 30 years, and Phil it has taken me some time, months upon months to find viable manufacturers who can really trust to do what they are supposed to do. So by me telling everyone exactly where we get everything done, then there’s a lot of people out there who love One24, not by being PCs, but being potential competitors. We are holding this near and dear not because we are trying to be secretive, but because there are some trade secrets…”
Where do I begin here? It seems that “there are few viable manufacturers out there.” How are we supposed to trust that One24 has chosen the viable ones? Is it because they were so straight-forward about the Slender Now story… ignoring the fact that it failed? Is it because they completely ignored the math that such schemes can’t succeed… and that the very CPA who questioned their story was proven to be right? Is it because the question was dodged about the product being available on auction sites for 50% below retail? Is it because this entire podcast focuses on every point that I brought up… except for the most important one about the FTC guidelines of MLMs and pyramid schemes?
It turns out that Joe Perry’s reason for lack of willingness to not give tours of the manufacturing facility is a smokescreen. One24 could enter in an exclusive agreement with that facility which would prevent competitors from getting that advantage. It’s business 101 – clearly someone with 30 years of industry experience should know about. Mr. Perry mentions that “when we go to our next level of manufacturing we may be set up to do that.” This is a little vague… what changes then? You are going to get a better manufacturer that you can have tours at? Perhaps you are going to get the exclusive relationship at your own manufacturer as I suggested before. If so, at least come clean and say that you are working on it rather than being vague about it.
Finally, if there are many manufacturing facilities that are not reputable out there (from Mr. Perry’s comments), and One24 is not willing to disclose their factory… well as a consumer, why have trust in it?
Podcast claims that One24 is something new and not an MLM
At one point in the podcast (14:30) tried to make a point that One24 was not an MLM. Philip Georgeson says:
“One of the objections are that this is another multi-level marketing company, another MLM. And although some of the comp plan may have the feel of an MLM, we know that it is not. Speak if you would for a moment as to what makes this unique and apart from an MLM and why it is not classified as such.”
Joe Perry responds:
“It is hard to classify something that is new. I’ve been involved in [the MLM] industry so long that it’s kind of like the DNA and I look at my grandson and I see parts of his mom and parts my son-in-law… There are piece of many things in One24 commission program”
It’s interesting that now Mr. Perry refers to it as a “commission program” and not a “compensation plan” or “comp plan” as Phillip Georgeson referred to it. A “Commission program” is for those salesmen who make retail sales, not recruiting others.
Mr Perry continues to call it a “hybrid” or “combination” of an affiliate or referral program, like Amazon has. Specifically he says:
“In some ways it is MLM, because if someone considers MLM multiple tiers which almost people do then our Incentived Refferal Program (IRP) does have multiple tiers which almost all people do…”
He then laughs at the point of describing MLM as having multiple tiers. It seems this is because he’s realized that in defining MLM he has painted himself into a corner. However, he continues to dig himself deeper and deeper into that corner:
“The only way you can ever get people to make money and build security is by…”
From there he goes into a franchise argument, specifically mentioning Kentucky Fried Chicken. He says that Harland Sanders wouldn’t have probably been a famous and wealthy man if he only had one chicken store. Mr. Perry makes the point that he uses the process of duplication. The key point here is that KFC is not an MLM. That concept is outside the scope of this article, but it’s not hard to prove that if KFCs didn’t sell product and made most of their money recruiting other KFCs, it would collapse as well. Imagine if KFC made most of its money by recruiting other KFCs… you’d get to that over-saturated point fairly quickly.
It’s worth mentioning that all MLMs have a component of Amazon’s affiliate or referral program to them. It simply means that if I refer a product to you and you buy it, I get a commission. Mary Kay and Amway have done this for decades. In fact the FTC says that this is the way sustainable, non-pyramid, non-illegal MLMs, should work… here are the FTC’s guidelines once again. Note the focus on retail sales.
So when Mr. Perry claims that One24 has features of an affiliate program and features of an MLM, he really could have said that it has features of an MLM, since they are all “hybrids” in the sense of having the affiliate side of the business.
Joe Perry (16:40-ish) continues:
“One of the neat things… about One24 is that really anyone can get involved with minimum amount of exposure and risk…. you talk about pyramid schemes earlier is one of those things they really look for is ‘how much inventory do I have to buy?’ or ‘what’s the initiation or enrollment fee to get in this deal?” Well if you start comparing apples and apples after awhile you look at One24 and you go oh my gosh, ‘What is the risk?’ There’s very little risk and that’s the way it’s been designed…
This is the way many MLMs have been designed. One24 isn’t unique or special. Having to buy inventory and/or paying an enrollment are traditional issues that the FTC has brought up with MLM companies. These points were brought forward years ago, MLM companies have dealt with them by now. Many companies, including One24, get away by requiring their distributors get their expensive product auto-shipped. This can be more expensive in the long term. In a lot of ways it is a lot worse for consumers like paying to rent their cable box month after month and year after year. As for not having to buy inventory – again distributors are required to buy the product to earn commissions from recruiting others. Perhaps one of the reasons the product can be found cheaply on Ebay is that people are forced to buy the product as a fee to be “in the business.”
Philip Georgeson says (17:40):
“If someone were to go into this 3, 4, 6, 10 years out they would have the level of potential success as the person who started from the beginning. Is that a fair assessment?
Joe Perry (17:55) continues:
“Oh yeah, and I think any fair plan… you know a pyramid is something that pays people at the top that started first. And when you look at One24… I watch the numbers each month… I’ve looked at new people that are coming in that came in 6 months after … and 6 months sounds probably pretty small, but we’re less than a year old. I look at some the most recent PCs that are doing extremely well and they are going to be passing the guys that got in 6 months prior to them if they keep doing what they are doing pretty quickly if they keep doing what they are doing…. that’s an excellent point.
Mr. Perry makes a great point that they are less than a year old. How can they speak to whether someone would have the same success 3-10 years? Note that they never said you’d have the same odds of success, just a “level of potential success.” From the Slender Now experience we know that similar companies tend to dry up pretty quickly. Also note that Mr. Perry says “some of the most recent PCs.” There is a wide chasm between possible and probable and the company isn’t willing to give any numbers or statistics on it.
One24 as a New MLM / Network Marketing / Direct Selling
At the 18:35 Philip Georgeson says “You and Mark have created the 21st century direct marketing company….”
Joe Perry doesn’t argue it. In the podcast they don’t tell people this, but “Network Marketing” and “Direct Selling” are just terms that are used to hide the bad publicity behind the term “MLM.” Clearly establishing a network and marketing does not have to be multi-level… I have a network of readers here and I don’t make money from what my readers (my network) recommends. Additionally, there’s nothing in “direct selling” that implies multi-level marketing… if you at the top of the pyramid in any MLM companies, they don’t typically don’t “directly sell” any product at all. It seems like they are just moving the ball again by calling it “direct marketing.”
At the 20:59 Mr. Perry says,
“I was just talking to one of our PCs right before this call and the guy is just so excited so thankful and it’s just changing his life.”
I’m having a flashback to that woman who wanted to by a new stove with Slender Now. I’m betting she was excited and thankful until it collapsed. People exhibit the same emotions when they join a pyramid scheme and get their first taste of the money rolling in.
One24 Scam Podcast Recap
At 22:30 Philip Georgeson tries to sum up the “interview” with points to for the PCs (distributors) to jot down.
The points he makes are:
- “One24 is an idea that has found its time. We have seen the evolution of what has happened in this industry and One24 represents the new path of the whole direct marketing industry.” In other words, One24 is indeed in the MLM industry and hence is an MLM. So much for being something “new.”
- He makes a point that is not “a recruiting-driven tool based on the financial aspects and retirement aspect…” The response to this charge about the company being “a recruiting-driven tool” was that One24 was derived “by doing one thing… that one green ticket, referring one person to become an auto-ship ofa product NatraBurst and repeating that.” His point continued “When you do that over time, repeat that over and over, great things happen.” Sounds like One24 agrees with me that NatraBurst is a recruiting-driven tool and that these “great things” are the potential financial rewards from such recruiting. We said the same thing, just used different choices of words. The Podcast didn’t even try to make a distinction.
- Next up is a recap of the section that I talked about in One24 as a Pyramid Scheme area. My favorite part is that he admits that One24’s policy of recruiting 24 people would blow through the world’s population “is probably true on paper.” However, he tries to make the distinction that “It can’t happen”, based solely on the evidence that it is has never happened. He neglects to mention that it’s because enough people are too smart to fall for such scams and PCs (distributors) drop out when they find that recruiting people isn’t a sustainable business.
- Philip Georgeson then tries to slander me for bringing such a logical argument that he agreed is “probably true.” He says that to compare One24 to a pyramid scheme, “I think speaks to the level, or lack there of, of education and intellect of what they know in the industry itself.” It short he’s attacking my intelligence for applying The FTC guidelines about the MLM industry to One24. Nowhere in the Podcast do they address the FTC or their stance.
- He says that the product, NatraBurst, was developed well before One24 was established. The timing of when the product was created is irrelevant in such schemes. The product could be gallons of milk for all it matters. What One24 is really pitching here is the business. Otherwise they wouldn’t have stress the “great things” that can happen from recruiting others into the scheme. This is what makes the product an afterthought. You could plug in just about any kind of consumable. Philip Georgeson says that One24 had this product, a “superfood”, already prepared and then the concept of One24 came in. I would need to see a lot of evidence backing this up, because these are people who, in their own admission “spent more than 30 years in the MLM industry.” People in MLM industry always seem to stumble upon these “super-products”, which just happen to be perfect for their scam.
- I covered NatraBurst Nutritional Information as Proprietary Information fairly well. The point is that NatraBurst is health product and, as such, should disclose all information necessary to the consumer to determine if it is healthy. For good measure, Philip Georgeson takes something that I didn’t say and suggests that I lack knowledge. He goes on, “So you [PCs/distributors] get to turn that table and spin that because whoever puts that out there is not understanding the categorization of what NatraBurst really is.” You have to love with a company tells its sales force to “spin” things, especially when consumers try to get necessary information to make an informed purchase.
- Philip Georgeson, then recaps and says that it One24 an MLM. However, a number of times, they’d talked about being the direct marketing (MLM) industry. Mr. Georgeson tries to spin it into being a hybrid between an affiliate program and “of course the successful tiered element of Multi-level Marketing (MLM), which gives you the wealth, which gives you the foundation and the only ability to capitalize on the efforts of others.” It’s interesting that they tie the MLM opportunity to the wealth proposition here, but previously they said that One24 should not be categorized for its financial and retirement aspects. This company can’t seem to make up its mind. This is what happens when the FTC says you can’t make these of claims and you need these kinds of claims to keep the sales force motivated in expanding the scheme. As for the One24 not being a MLM, it seems like their plan is to take the MLM and try to dress it up as something different. It’s putting lipstick on a pig and calling it Scarlett Johanson.
That’s pretty much the end. After more than 6500 words, it’s about time, right?
What is going to happen to their name when those first few PCs don’t retire after 24 months? lol are are still broke after 36 Months
Anonymous Aussie says
Absolutely laughable! ROLF! One can’t help but notice that Philip and Joe fail entirely to address the fundamental aspects as to why One24 doesn’t fit the definition of a pyramid scheme and instead refer only to the saturation aspect!!!
Where is the mention of the 70% rule, the customer rule?? Of course they eluded to mention those aspects too.
They, just as their own sales force, confirmed that the focus of activities is on recruitment rather than selling products to retail customers not associated with the scheme – the preferred customers (PC’s) are it’s own sales force and therefore the primary revenue is from the sales force also. In saying that, the result is just a closed system and an internal transfer of monies from the later participants to the earlier ones – a scheme which will result in losses amongst 99% of the sales force.
And speaking of saturation, they lose on that point too.
On the smallest scale, logic would tell you that a distributor recruiting other distributors within their own network, a practice which we all know is never driven by bona-fide consumer demand for the products but rather the opportunity, is a sure fire way to not only kill a distributors retail market, but saturate their own network market.
The attrition and drop-out rates seen in MLM, which I’ve seen to be estimated in the vicinity of up to greater than 87 – 95% within the first year (in fact, it’s estimated that these dropouts occur almost immediately) certainly isn’t seen in any other field of employment.
The fact is that MLM/pyramid scams such as One24 rely on the new distributors constantly being recruited (and likewise the success of every distributor depends on their ability to recruit other distributors) because as we’ve identified, it is they who are the primary customers and from which the absolute majority revenue is being derived – the pyramid at the lowest level is continuously collapsing, with individual markets constantly being saturated, with the ultimate collapse being delayed by the continuous recruitment process.
I once found an interesting description of market saturation in an article by Jon M Taylor – 5 Red Flags which discusses the issue of market saturation.
You’ll note that one of the common misrepresentations made by MLM companies addresses the issue of saturation is (accurately) described by Jon:
“Saturation never happens. Turnover, as in any business, is a reality that assures an ample supply of available prospects.”
He then goes on to describe the reality
With few real customers, MLM products are sold by recruiting a revolving door of new “distributors” who buy products to “do the business.” And since people perceive the opportunity as dwindling with each new “distributor,” market saturation requires promoters to recruit elsewhere. So MLM’s quickly evolve into Ponzi schemes, requiring the opening of new markets and/or new product divisions to repay earlier investors, as has happened with Amway (now Quixtar) and Nu Skin (which became IDN, then Big Planet and Pharmanex). It’s not turnover, but continuous churning of new recruits to replace dropouts.
One24 most certainly would not appear to be the exception to this rule.
What’s just as frightening about the complete and utter misinformation being promoted by these scammers is that there are people (namely those pursuing this phantom retirement opportunity) who are going to believe this complete and utter baloney.
These assholes are so crooked they couldn’t even lie straight in bed.
Lazy Man says
I care whether a company is a scam or not, because I like to help people get great value for their dollar and map out a plan towards financial freedom. It’s very typical for any website focused on helping consumers. If you had some of my articles you would have realized this.
As far as Melaleuca goes, remember that any pyramid scheme will have some people who make money. That’s the nature of how they work. Analysis of MonaVie’s (another MLM like Melaleuca) income disclosure statement showed that 99.64% of people involved lost money.
I’m glad that you find my financial directory amusing. Advertising is what it is. I take it from all relevant financial companies and Payday Loans qualify. I don’t make any money referring business – it’s a flat rate per month. Also, you should realize that Payday loans do have their purposes – they are better than the fees you get with over-drafting your account. Also, I make my stance on payday loans quick clear… from my article: Are Companies that Make Payday Loans Bad?
So Scott, why don’t we get back on the topic of the article and why don’t explain how One24 DOESN’T violate the FTC’s guidelines. Why would you try to defend a company that appears to be an illegal pyramid scheme? Why would you support consumer fraud?
Lazy Man says
You know what Scott. You are correct. You posted a comment on an article about One24 that didn’t address One24 at all. I’m big enough to admit it.
I never suggested that I was an all-knowing sage of the universe. However, I do stand by everything in the article as being correct. You don’t seem to dispute that at all.
There’s no ongoing debate to engage in. It never started because you didn’t debate One24 at all.
Seems like we are no better off than we were before you came. I may even delete your comments as they have no place in this post.
Lazy Man says
I have engaged in debate in the following articles (with number of comments in parenthesis of with ongoing debate):
http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/one24-natraburst-scam/ (364 comments)
http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/monavie-scam-was-my-wife-recruited-sell-snake-oil/ (5793 comments)
http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/lifevantage-protandim-scam/ (964 comments)
I have shown that I’m open to opposing viewpoints. I simply require that the debate be on the topic of the article. It doesn’t make sense to go to a forum about cell phones and complain about your mechanic. That’s all you’ve done here.
I spread no venom, I simply bring up the truth that these company wants to hide. That’s why when you listen to the podcast mentioned in this article they never address the FTC’s guidelines on pyramid schemes (the most important aspect) , but they address nearly every other point I made at (http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/one24-natraburst-scam/)… but they do so with more information designed to mislead the consumer.
Of course many companies will go on regardless of what I say. However, the important thing is that consumers can get the information necessary to make an informed decision – not the decision that One24 wants to feed them.
Enjoy your life as well.
Todd Hirsch says
Wow. You both sound Like dream stealers. One24 is only $70 a month. They are basically a sales job. That is what mlm is. A sales job that you invest in yourself in. If you are not good at sales Then don’t do mlm! If you are good at sales and being your own boss.. Then you can do go with ANY MLM.
Lazy Man says
Wow, Todd. You sound like a member of a Cult: http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=16627.
I have no problem with a sales job, but you need to make sure that it passes these FTC guidelines for not being a pyramid scheme, which from 99% of the thousands of the distributors I’ve talked with… and from One24’s founders in this podcast…. One24 doesn’t pass the guidelines.
Avoid any “sales jobs” that require you to buy the product for yourself month-after-month. Avoid any “sales jobs” where you are recruiting others to become salesmen, and make sure that a majority of your sales are to people outside of the business.
Todd Hirsch says
One24 has a new product also. A healthy alternative to energy drinks. A lower cost alternative also. That is a 14 Billion dollar market. I do not only sponsor I also sell the product. I am not in a “cult” LOL!! However I do work with other marketers that are like family to me. I have helped people make money online with mlm and affiliate marketing. There is 2 sides to the coin. Some programs I agree are not good for the average person. I look at mlm as an investment. You invest in product and in your marketing. You keep posting your “fact” links like they are the whole story. Your links are one sided. Your view is one sided. I know personally a guy that went from working at Mc Donald’s to making $5000 a month in a mlm program. People can have success and people can fail. YES there is a lot of hype.. but there is also opportunity. You say the fail rate is 99%, but that is not true. That is not true for every mlm. I respect your opinions and you seem smart… however you also seem jaded and negative. You do not need to start name calling either.. ie “cult member” lol. A 9-5 job can look like a cult also. I love working for myself. I could not afford $100,000 to buy a franchise or start a brick and mortar business. I however make profits higher then a lot of brick and mortar businesses. You should also point out that 90% of traditional businesses fail. So either way you look at it.. business = risk. Investing = risk. Even being a wage slave = risk. At the same time mlm is not evil and just out to scam people. It is a viable business model to take products to market. MLM is just an investment in time and you need to lean how to sell and sponsor if you expect to make good money. The FTC is not always 100% right either, no matter if our taxes pay for them or not. Have a great day. I have to go to the bank and cash the $1255 check I just received from one of the programs I am doing. :) I love working for myself!!
Lazy Man says
You are pitching that bogus video about no chance of failure and a 90% success rate as well? It promises “realistically retire” working only 4 hours a month. Really?!?!
I don’t see any information about One24’s new energy drink. I would be willing to look into it, especially if it is lower cost.
Don’t be concerned about it being a 14 billion dollar market. Lots of small companies make cheap low-quality Android tablets for around $100 and that’s a similar size market – they will never get the business of an iPad. I’m a blogger which is a big market as well, but I’m not likely to take over the Huffington Post or Gawker media any time soon. The fact is that the MLM energy drink market is really small. If people want an energy drink they’ll likely buy one where it is most convenient, the grocery store. The only reason why One24 is going into the energy drink business is because that’s a product with a huge mark-up. I’m sure they’d go into the bottled water category as that similar high profit margins, but they wouldn’t have anything to “spin” (market) consumers, because water is pretty much water.
I admit that my view is one-sided, however it is the side of the FTC, which is the side looking out for consumers. I urge you to look at the link that I showed you from the FTC about pyramid schemes.
Your view also one-sided. It’s solely about individuals who made money. You say, “I know personally a guy that went from working at Mc Donald’s to making $5000 a month in a mlm program. People can have success and people can fail. YES there is a lot of hype.. but there is also opportunity.” I counter with the FTCs words:
That’s applicable because One24 hits the criteria for being a pyramid and not a legit MLM. It seems we agree that there are examples of people making money – no one is disputing that point. So we need to analyze not just the person who went from McDonalds to making $5000 in MLM, but also everyone in the MLM. If that person is an example of a few at the top, what about the people in his downline. Were every single one of them making money or were a majority of them losing money so that one example can make money? Mathematically this article explains why that is the case – those people were losing money for his gain.
Hey, Todd, I see where you are coming from. You have to defend One24 because otherwise you won’t be able to recruit others in underneather you. It undermines your ability to make that $5000 a month, because the people below you are reading this information and realizing that they’ll have to lose money, which is not interesting to most people. We are seeing people like Brittany commenting today that she’s enlighted by this information.
You fall back on the old MLM handbook. First I’m a dream stealer. Now I’m negative. If you read the rest of the articles on my site, I’m not negative. It just upsets me to see people taken advantage of. Bank robbers view police as being negative as well – however, the general publish is better off for having the police.
As for the “name calling” of being in a cult, don’t brush it off as being without basis in fact. Doctors have shown that MLMs and cults use a lot of the same “mind controling techniques”. Please show me evidence of a 9-5 job using similar mind controling techniques.
You can’t just equate, “business = risk. Investing = risk. Even being a wage slave = risk.” without going into it deeper. There are different types of risk. Getting out of bed every morning is a risk (a low one, but still a risk). Jumping off a bridge is a risk (a high chance of death though). The question that needs to be asked is what is the risk? Analysis of over 300 MLMs show that 99.9% of MLMs lose money. That’s really a bad risk.
I would recommend you not paint all MLMs with the same brush. As the FTC says, “Some are pyramid schemes.” Since those are a sign of fraud they are “evil” and “out to scam people.” One24 would seem to fall in the group.
Todd Hirsch says
You have way too much time on your hands..lol I am done with this debate. I can only point out.. that mlm is an INVESTMENT in time and takes selling skills. If you have the time and you can develop sales skills and marketing strategies then you can make a good profit in mlm. It is an investment and they do PAY me WELL. No matter how much you ramble about the FTC a new mlm will start everyday, and maybe every minuet. Billions are being made in mlm. Every minute you ramble millions are being paid in commissions. Have a wonderful day in negative land. You sound like a Nazi. Peace my brother.
Lazy Man says
Financial freedom is a great thing Todd. It gives me the time to educate people. You should look into it sometime – but do it without the scam.
You can pitch MLM as an INVESTMENT in time and takes selling skills. That’s fair. I would say the same about being a NFL quality quarterback, but instead of selling skills, you have to develop passing and defense reading skills. What else do both have in common, just about everyone pursuing that path is going to end up greatly disappointed with their “investment” in time.
You can say that they “PAY you WELL” (no need to scream it), but for every one of you, there are 100s maybe 1000s of people losing money.
It’s true that new MLMs may start everyday. I think that’s possibly an exaggeration, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. What you are leaving out is that MLMs are closing up shop at the same rate… if not faster. Why? Because an MLM has to have tens of thousands of people in it to even be moderately successful. There aren’t enough people to sustain the starting of new ones without ending of other ones.
Every minute that millions are being paid in commission, the collective group are paying more money to the collect those commissions. On average they pay $1 into the system to get back 50 cents. If you like deal, let’s duplicate it via Paypal. You give me as many dollars as you want and I’ll give back half.
Ever stop to ask where the commission money comes from? One24 as a corporation keeps half of the profits and gives the other half out to distributors. That pool of money appears to come almost exclusively from people who are in the company buying the product to earn the commissions. Todd, even you are smart enough to realize that the money doesn’t come from nowhere. People in MLM never want to talk about it because it turns the focus on the group as a whole instead of the examples of an alleged McDonalds employee making $5000 now.
Thanks for bringing in the anti-Semitic thoughts to the blog, Todd. Shows some real class.
Ok…I use the NatraBurst product. I mix it as a meal replacement…love the taste and it satisfies me as an afternoon “snack”. I buy it because it is a nutrient dense product…study the ingredients and you will see that. Also, I don’t see WATER listed anywhere in the ingredient list. It makes a great recovery drink, also….much better than the UNHEALTHY Gatorade type products that the kids are consuming….many times at the same price as a serving of Natraburst.
Yes, I am a PC…because I looked at the product as a healthy addition to my diet. If I share the information with friends/family/clients…I tell them they have to understand the ingredients in the product…otherwise, it doesn’t pay for them to even consider it.
You are too focused on the business part of it and are not even considering that if someone already uses a product like this for health reasons…it can be a win-win situation with virtually nothing to lose!
Lazy Man says
It would be weird to see water listed on something that is a powder. Carnation Instant Breakfast is a more nutrient dense product for a lot less money. That’s a win-win.
My mistake on the “water” comment…I was reading and writing quickly this morning…I read your comment about the Pacific Ocean and just had that in my head..yes, MY MISTAKE…that did not make sense.
Now, I am addressing your Carnation Instant Breakfast…shame on you! 31grams of sugar…7+ teaspoons in a serving of the ready to drink…you say that is nutrient dense!!!!???? Compare this to 0 grams sugar, no dairy, no gluten! It also has some of the most nutrient dense ingredients you can find. You need a lesson on nutrition before you start endorsing something that is loaded with total garbage like Carnation Instant Breakfast…now that is a lose-lose!!!
Lazy Man says
Carnation Instant Breakfast No Sugar Added has only 7 grams of sugar – http://www.carnationbreakfastessentials.com/Products/Powder/Rich-Milk-Chocolate-No-Sugar-Added/Nutrition.aspx
It also has twice the fiber and a ton more vitamins.
Additionally you get rice protein for $10 a pound on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Nutribiotic-Rice-Protein-Vegan-Vanilla/dp/B00014DLC4. That’s got 1 gram of sugar, no dairy, no gluten, and is completely vegan.
If you want to save a little more money, you can get it down to about $7.50 a pound: http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-Brown-Protein-Powder/dp/B001FM6ZLU/ref=sr_1_3?s=hpc&ie=UTF8&qid=1317616557&sr=1-3
How much is a pound of NatraBurst again? It is around $64 a pound ($70 for 17.5 ounces).
Todd Hirsch says
Lazy man… you are funny!!!! Natura Burst is a HIGH QUALITY PRODUCT… how much does a low quality steak cost compared to Black Angus? You are comparing apples to oranges. How much does a pinto cost compared to a Corvette? They are both cars and drive! People are not bargain shopping here!..lol.. People join one24 because they want a high quality product AND a work at home “sales” job. That is all mlm is.. a way to take a product to the market and pay sales people..aka “members” for their work. There are other products on the market WAY WAY more over priced then Natra Burst is!! AND..you buy then at the store and you cant be a member and make MONEY!! The reason only 5% make money in MLM is because only 5% really work it and acquire the skill set. In one24 the average is MUCH higher then 5% that are earning.. the ones that stay in and only get a few sign ups actually make money and get the product FREE. Instead of the money going to a big marketing budget. Please stop being a MLM HATER!!! ANYONE THAT WANTS TO MAKE MONEY IN MLM AND ACTUALLY WORKS AT IT CAN MAKE A LIFE CHANGING AMOUNT OF MONEY AND CHANGE THEIR LIVES FOR THE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BEING A WAGE SLAVE IS THE REAL SCAM. MLM HAS CHANGED MY LIFE FOR THE BETTER AND I LOVE IT!!! I AVE FRIENDS ALL OVER THE WORLD NOW!! I HAVE NO BOSS!! I HAVE REAL FREEDOM!!!! ALL THANKS TO MLM!!!! THE ONLY ONES THAT FAIL AT MLM ARE THE ONES THAT QUIT AND CANT BUILD A NETWORK OR FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS!!! MLM = WORK, GROW YOUR NETWORK AND GET PAID WELL FOR IT… A WAGE SLAVE JOB = PAID FOR YOU TIME AND BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF IN MANY CASES. I LOVE MLM AND I WILL FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.. I AM ABOUT 3-5 YEARS AWAY FROM BEING A MILLIONAIRE!! I COULD NEVER DO THAT WITH A 9-5… TAKE THAT TO THE BANK. Also…YES you sound like a NAZI the way you talk about MLM.
Lazy Man says
Last I looked comparing powdered drink mixes, steaks, or cars are not like comparing apples and oranges.
We have no evidence that NatraBurst is a high quality product. You say it is – but you back it up with nothing. I linked to a completely vegan powder – which also seems to be a high quality product.
I don’t mind the work at home sales job, but that’s not what it is… it fits the FTC’s description of a pyramid scheme. The video on your site breaks at least a dozen FTC guidelines about truth in advertising.
It has been proven that you only make money in MLM by inflicting financial harm on all the people you introduce it to. You can say your life is better for MLM, but it just means that you’ve made other people’s worse.
I am confused your site says “without telling, selling or explaining anything to anyone”
You just said it was a sales job.
How is it both?
Todd Hirsch says
Lazy man… did you get dropped on your head when you were a baby? Listen to yourself…LOL.. first of all not one person is ever forced to join a work at home job. People do is because they want to!!! The only ones that don’t make money are the ones that QUIT or never build a real network.. it is called NETWORK MARKETING!!! Over 95% of traditional businesses that start FAIL!!! NOT JUST MLM!!!
SO inflicts the harm when a normal business fails 95% of the time? Jobs are lost everyday…. GIVE ME A BREAK!! YOU ALSO NEED TO POINT OUT THAT MLM HAS MADE MORE NEW MILLIONAIRES THEN ANYTHING ELSE IN THE LAST 30 YEARS THEN ANY OTHER BUSINESS IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!Buying NatraBurst is not inflicting financial harm on anyone!!! EATING AT MC Donalads 3 times a week costs more money then NatraBurst does… and it can CAUSE WAY MORE FINANCIAL HARM FROM BAD HEALTH AND MEDICAL BILLS!!!!
You act like people join mlm and then are honest poor little victims of evil mlm… LOL People join because they want to make some extra money. I work with people in MLM all day everyday… you have hard workers.. you have whiners..you have lazy people.. you have action takers..you have “investors” that just want to throw money at it. The ones that do good in ANY MLM are the ones that work at it everyday!! One thing I agree with is that one24 does sell some hype also… one24 is actually just a little side income. I also own and launch my own programs. You can not group them all together.. there are 100s of different types of programs.. some are winners and some are losers… IT FEELS SO GOOD TO WAKE UP EVERY MORNING AND KNOW I HAVE MONEY IN THE BANK.. NO BOSS THAT I HAVE TO KISS UP TO… NO ALARM CLOCK TO WAKE UP TO… THAT IS REAL FREEDOM I GOT FROM MLM AND AFFILIATE MARKETING… YOU REALLY ARE A DREAM STEALER.. BECAUSE YOU MIGHT STEER SOMEONE AWAY FROM WORKING FOR THEMSELVES WITH YOUR CRAZY POSTS.. IT THEY ARE THAT EASY SWAYED BY YOUR GARBAGE.. THEY PROBABLY WERE NOT RIGHT FOR MLM ANYWAYS…
I HELP MAKE PEOPLES LIVES BETTER AND I HELP MY TEAM EVERYDAY!! THAT IS WHY I DO WELL IN MLM.. I HAVE A NETWORK OF PEOPLE THAT KNOW LIKE AND TRUST ME.. AND WE MAKE MONEY TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. The FTC does not pay my bills.. MLM Does!!!!! :)
Lazy Man says
In a long enough timeline just about every business fails. However, someone had a chart about companies failing before and it showed it wasn’t near 95%. In fact something like 30% were still in business 10 years later. MLM distributors always give these stats, but never back it up with a source.
MLM has not made more new millionaires in the last 30 years than any other business in the world. MonaVie, one of the biggest ones ever has probably about 100. Google itself has done that many times over and that’s just one of of thousands of Internet companies that have made people millions. How many made millions in the real estate industry – over the last 30 years it is probably millions. Todd you are simply lying to people to try to make yourself rich. It’s transparent.
Your McDonalds trips are expensive, Todd. I have Natraburst costing $15 a week. The rare times that I go to McDonalds a McDouble and water is $1 plus tax. That’s a meal – around 400 calories. NatraBurst is not a meal – it is 50 calories a serving. You were talking about comparing apples and oranges before – but this is the real deal apples to oranges comparison. NatraBurst isn’t a restaurant meal – it is a powder like the Rice Protein available on Amazon for $7 a pound. The McDonalds comparison is way off-base and a red herring. If you want to substitute for something healthy like a protein powder, grab the cheap rice protein and skip the NatraBurst.
I realize that people join One24 because they want to make extra money. The problem is that it ends up costing them money, because month after month they have pay $70 for a $10 product and the amount of money they make back from the business is less than that. You are stealing everyone’s dream of financial freedom, by inflicting this cost on them every month. Your rants in capital letters with bunches of exclamation points doesn’t fool anybody.
I realize that the FTC doesn’t pay your bills – MLM does. That’s clearly why you are here defending it. You need to because if you don’t your bills don’t get paid. Unfortunately a business still has to be legal and it certainly looks like One24 isn’t.
Wow Lazy Man…you are really missing the boat when it comes to nutritional FACTS! Tell me about the nutrition one gets in the chemical laden hamburgers from McDonalds…or any other fast food place….and I use the term “food” loosely here. Shame on you for even thinking a whole food nutrition product can be compared to that CRAP! I’m ashamed that my kids were allowed to eat that as children…I have been educated since…and you should, too.
As far as the Carnation Breakfast…on their site it said that women should not have more than 6 teaspoons of sugar a day…their product has 7.75tsp!!…that pretty much allows very little of anything for the rest of the day…veggies and protein..try to live on that! Ok, now for the no sugar added version…are you aware what that is made of? Acesulfame potassium, sucralose, maltodextrin…all synthetic CHEMICALS!!! They mess with the thyroid, thymus,hormones etc. As far as the vitamins that are ADDED…added is not the same as getting them in the food itself. Just like drugs turn into “new drugs” everytime you add a new drug to your initial one, as you add more nutrient dense whole foods, they will have a synergistic effect to now make the nutritional benefit even greater…and they are bioavailable in your body compared to synthetically produced vitamins.
No wonder why we have so many people with cancer and other “conditions”…they don’t understand what real FOOD is!
As far as I’m concerned, I care more about what I and my family are putting into our bodies. It would cost me a lot more money to get all of the NATURAL occurring ingredients that are in NatraBurst..even with the $7/lb. rice bran protein…too much protein is not a good thing either.
I think when your viewers read this, they will see that some of us are not just in it for the money…although, I am not saying it won’t help. Like Todd Hirsh said…is that so bad? Nobody is twisting anyone’s arm here. If you don’t believe in any product, you shouldn’t be selling it! Now who is in it for the money…aka MCDONALDS!!!
Lazy Man says
Janet, this isn’t a place to have a conversation about health facts. I have a whole site at Lazy Man and Health that I wrote at for a couple of years about health. I didn’t make the comparison of McDonalds to NatraBurst – that was Todd Hirsch – a One24 distributor. Shame on him!
The point about McDonalds is not that it is healthy, it is that it is a meal at a restaurant and not comparable to a powder at home. If you want to talk about McDonalds compare it to Burger King and Wendy’s – don’t compare it to NatraBurst. If you want to talk about NatraBurst, let’s compare it to Rice Protein, Whey Protein, and Carnation Instant Breakfast – not to McDonalds.
It’s like comparing reading War and Peace with watching the Jersey Shore – it simply doesn’t make any sense and One24 distributors shouldn’t be making such comparisons.
The No Sugar Added version of Carnation Instant Breakfast doesn’t have 7.75tsp. It had 7 grams which is pretty low for sugar in general. 8 ounces of my milk has 13 grams of sugar. That’s almost twice the sugar for 8 ounces of milk. Now are you going to start complaining that milk isn’t a healthy drink? The No Sugar Added does have less than 2% of those ingredients that are considered to be safe by the FDA.
Janet, you should look at NatraBurst’s ingredients. It essentially is brown rice protein. The nutritional label very, very similar. You shouldn’t complain about rice protein having too much protein. For one, you could simply use less – saving even more money. For another, the rice protein has 12grams of protein per serving – a 3.5 ounce serving of chicken has 30 grams. You will probably start saying that even that small amount of chicken is unhealthy now because it has too much protein. Finally, I suggest you read the purple sidebar at: http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html. That seems to say that there are only rare cases where too much protein could be an issue.
If you are not in it for the money, you should be buying it on Ebay and saving yourself a lot of money. This can’t be argued. Only people who are in it for the money would volunteer to pay $70 for a product that they can buy elsewhere for $30 – because they have to pay that price as admission to the business.
I’m okay with people buying whatever product they want. It’s their money. I only want to show that people aren’t getting good value for it.
I also don’t think this product should be marketed as it is – at it seems to be done illegally. This is a huge concern, Janet and it is crucially important. How can I trust the health of a product when the company seems to be openly willing to break the law and implement a pyramid scheme? That’s simply not trust worthy and not worth my business.
Todd Hirsch says
I did not really compare NatraBurst to Mc Donald’s. I was saying that a trip to Mc Donalds is about $5 per person usually and that you would be better off replacing the Mc.Donald Meal with NatraBurst. I was saying the cost is similar to if you ate at McDonalds three times a week. I was also pointing out the fact that you could save that money and be more healthy by consuming NatraBurst. The health benefits that come with consuming NatraBurst are worth far more then the price of it. Doctor bills are expensive!!
PLEASE stop comparing NatraBurst to Carnation instant breakfast or rice protein.. Natra Burst has WAY more whole food nutrients and vitamins in it then the products you compare it to…LAZY MAN… The product is great and worth every penny. Just because you are LAZY and could not build a MLM network in Monavie… makes you bitter at MLM.. awww poor baby…. if you spent more time on building a NETWORK… in NETWORK Marketing.. you would not blame the company.. you would blame yourself… I know many people that did great in Monavie..many doing great in One24.. and other health mlm programs. Only thing that you got right is that.. MLM IS NOT FOR LAZY PEOPLE… making blog posts all day and selling affiliates products is for LAZY PEOPLE…you are an EXPERT at that!!!
I got to run now..I have a webinar to do for my team. Everyone on my side of this debate stay strong, blessed and positive and focused! What is great about our beloved mlm lifestyle is that we get to spend most of our time with motivated and POSITIVE PEOPLE!! :-) :-)
Lazy Man says
Todd, that was clearly more of a comparison that what I was making and Janet flew off the hook at me, so she should fly off the hook at you for starting it in the first place.
There are typically four things people think about when it comes to food: taste, health, pricing, and convenience. For many people McDonalds nails three of four of these – health being the exception. That’s a pretty strong sell for it. For example, one can get a McDouble for $1 and that has 390 calories. The same 390 calories of NatraBurst is going to cost you $18.20.
(Math: it is $2.33 for 50 calories of NatraBurst and you need nearly 8 servings to match the 390 calories in a McDouble.)
It clearly doesn’t seem like you could be saving money by consuming NatraBurst. In fact, it seems like you’d be spending 18 times as much if you try to make it an apples to apples comparison.
However, if you are going to skip McDonalds and go to a powdered drink to save in an effort to save on doctor bills, why not get the $7 stuff from Amazon? It’s essentially the same product at 1/10th the price. It’s like paying $200,000 for a Toyota Camry when you could pay $20,000 for a Honda Accord. There are minor differences, but no one in their right mind can make the Toyota Camry seem like a good deal – except for the person selling the Toyota. This is where Todd comes in.
Todd, you’ve lied several times already. Your video on your website breaks many FTC guidelines in truth in advertising. You lie when you say that NatraBurst has more vitamins than Carnation Instant Breakfast – NatraBurst has almost nothing. I realize that CIB may be fortified, but it is still better than missing nearly all vitamins in NatraBurst. The least they could do for the price is fortify it some. I’m guessing in a few years they’ll do this just as MonaVie has done.
Ok…I really don’t have time to do this. Did you ever hear of EMPTY calories…not to mention all of the bad fat in the burger(or whatever the “meat” is)? Even that you are condoning McDonalds or CIB shows you know little as far as nutrients.
Also, you can’t “measure” vitamins in a variety of whole foods. Remember, once you have that variety, they all work together to make it even better…not like the “fortified not as bioavailable”as the CIB JUNK! You are the one that compared it to that…there is nothing healthy about that stuff…ask a REAL health advisor and they will tell you. And no, milk is not part of my diet…I choose to keep all of the hormones, antibiotics, and drugs out of my body that milk “provides”.Also, if you are looking at taste and convenience that you get by going to McD’s, then I have that with NatraBurst(which has NO fillers). I plan ahead…put the powder with another powder that I like and add water when I am ready to drink it. I have it with me so I don’t have to make BAD choices such as fast “food”. I am healthy, not overweight, no “conditions”, and I have a positive attitude thanks to positive people that I choose to have in my circle.
Maybe you should watch the movies…Food Inc. and Food Matters…you can learn alot and you don’t have to endorse the crap you think is healthy. By the way…I don’t have a lot of faith in what the FDA thinks is safe…follow the money trail if you are looking to do so…talk about deception…now that is what is killing us!
Lazy Man says
Janet, you seem to miss the fact this isn’t a discussion about health. A One24 distributor brought up McDonalds, which is completely off-topic.
Vitamins are easily measurable. It’s right on the NatraBurst label. There are hormone-free and antibiotic-free versions of milk.
If you want to plan ahead with a powder – fine. Grab the cheap vegan rice protein from Amazon and add it to your water. Done. I made it just as convenient for you and saved you about $63 a pound.
I’ve seen Food Matters – I wrote an article on it: http://www.juicescam.com/food-matters-and-monavie/
Don’t continue with the FDA conspiracy theories.
I can’t believe you are condoning the illegal activity of One24. These are not the positive people to put in your circle. That speaks volumes about your lack of credibility.
Janet are you a moron or just trying to make trouble? Lazyman couldn’t have been more clear that he was not of the opinion that McDs is healthy. Why are you still harping about this? LM wasn’t even the one who raised the issue about McDs.
You clearly lost this argument and are just trying to change the subject (and do you really think that you come across as a visionary by telling people that McDs isn’t all that healthy? Idiot!)
Excuse me Vogel…I am not an idiot but I have a feeling I am responding to one. The McD’s was brought into the conversation by Todd, but LM is the one that ran with it. I will not post again, since this is indeed not suppose to be a post on health, but has turned into one….I apologize for stirring the pot with people like you that can only respond by insulting others with nothing to add to the conversation…it gets us nowhere. Go get a burger…I hear you can eat for a buck!
Thank you for the information, it really helped. One24 is claiming that it’s being attack because of competition. I am just wondering what kind of competition. Because really the market for false claiming dust in a jar is quite small. Earning a lot of money, with little work and an almost worthless product that market is flooded with Pyramid scam competition.
Wow! Lazy man you are hard to follow, I mean with the grammar and being all over the place with your writing.
At the end of the day I don’t believe there are many people that care what you say, think or believe.
If you don’t work for the FTC You should or just shut up.
Who in the freak cares who is in an MLM or not. Do you hear voices at night or are you possesed.
If you want to truly help people and i mean seriously, read the bible, accept christ as your personal savoir and preach to them about achieving eternal salvation.
You are wasting a lot of your precious time on this planet for nothing, when you could be doing something worth while, like being a big brother to a child that has no father or Helping give ideas to third world countries to have clean water.
This thing that you are involved with here is demon possesed and many here i am sure believe you are the one in a cult.
Take a deep breath here my brother and cleanse your sole and walk away from this before it leads to consequences that you don’t want to deal with,financially, emotionally and spiritually.
I wish you Well,
Lazy Man says
It’s a 5,000 word blog post, it’s going to have some errors. If you’d like to clean it up, Paypal me $100 at my domain name (no “.com”) @gmail.com and I’ll have an editor proofread and fix it for you. Thanks.
You believe that only people who work at the FTC should prevent others from being scammed out of thousands of dollars? That doesn’t make any sense.
I’m here to help people and the tons of emails that I get tell me that I’m doing exactly that. Why do you care what I do to help people. Why do you waste your precious time on the planet commenting here? It couldn’t be because I’m busting on your One24 pyramid scheme, making it difficult for you to scam others. Wait, that must be it, because everyone else supports the work I do.
I don’t think the One24 founders would end their pyramid scheme if I read bible verses to them. I have no idea how religious they are or not.
Hi lazy man,I’m not in one24 I was actually looking for their inclome disclosure statement and happened upon your site and saw all of this angry rage.
I like others was doing my due-diligence and researching them because a friend of mine is with them and wanted me to check them out.
I have decided not to go with them and not because of you, but because I could not find the Income disclosure statement and I did not like their very confusing comp plan.
I am still pulling and praying for you brother and I still don’t see why you care about bashing people and companies, who cares who is in what. It is the individuals responsibility for his or her own actions.
I don’t want to see anyone scammed anymore than you or anyone else does. I am sure people appreciate your insight but you are a little to crazy with this.
I believe in what goes around comes around and the energy you release brings back like energy, like it or not.
I hope you come around i’m rooting for you.
Lazy Man says
Yeah, I must admit I have little tolerance for those who scam others out of their hard-earned money. The economy is bad enough without the people who need jobs the most getting conned.
If you were really doing good due diligence, you should have seen the post at One24 Scam? I give a lot more detail at end there about the pyramid scheme. People at One24 are concerned about it and fed me the inside information that proves it is a pyramid scheme.
Thank you for your prayers. Keep them coming. I don’t see why you would condone a company scamming others out of their money. Individuals are responsible for their own actions, but they should have the information to make educated decisions. This is what I provide them on my site. So many people get out of a MLM and email me saying, “Thank you so much for providing this information. I would never have got in [X] and lost thousands of dollars if I had read it earlier.
You may say that I’m “a little to crazy with this” (who has the grammar problems now?), but my opinion is that you aren’t crazy enough about it. I’d rather err on the side of zealous about helping prevent people from being scammed than take your approach and just let people get scammed.
Tonya Williams says
Very good article. To me it seems very obvious that One24 is a scam and already one of it’s founders, Mark Seyforth bailed out when the company was less than a year old.
Funny how Joe Perry can’t or won’t release any information about his manufacturer or plant. Could it be because One24 is just a distributor and products are made for them?
Also something you maybe interested in, I came across some fmr Slender Now people. It appears as though Joe Perry and Mark Seyforth were initially employees of that company. It was started by somebody else. A guy who owned a chain of health clubs. Later that owner gave Perry and Seyforth part ownership for sweat equity. However, and this is interesting I think, when the Liquid Protein scam hit in 1978, Slender Now sales dropped, Joe Perry and Mark Seyforth resigned. They quit. Left the ownder high and dry. Then the owner filed for bankruptcy and started a new company selling the same Slender Now product so it didn’t collapse as Joe Perry said. It would be more proper to say that Joe Perry collapsed and quit. Perry, I understand also started another company called Perrand which folded. And he took over the Slender Now company agan in the 1980s until that folded circa 1988.
From what I have heard, I would not trust Joe Perry or Mark Seyforth. And now it appears as though Seyforth and Perry have had a falling out with One24. That could be the sign that One24 is ready to collapse.
When are people going to learn to not trust these scam artists??
Lazy Man says
Quite honestly, I thought that One24 did collapse. It seems like no one has used the One24 hashtag since January, 2013. A year and a half with no one using your company name in a hash tag?
It seems like they still have a website up, but it looks like a ghost-town of a “company” (if you can call it that) to me.
Tonya Williams says
I hear that Mark Seyforth has started a new company called Myday1 and is selling coffee and the Natra Burst products. Company has been in prelaunch for 2 years and not getting much traction! So my guess is that One24 has folded or barely running. So much for people retiring in 24 months.
Or perhaps like back in the Slender Now days, when the going gets tough, Perry and Seyforth get going and quit. Some leaders.
John Hayes says
Check out Mark Seyforths new venture where now he is trying to hide under Cforth. He has some how hooked up with actor Neal McDonough and is launching another multi leve. He has literally had dozens and has scammed so many people all over the country and alot of them were in Florida. Some one needs to stop him for good!
Lazy Man says
It’s hard. These people only know how to do one thing.