Why MonaVie is a Scam
The short answer is yes. The longer answer? It is perhaps the most incredible example of deceptive marketing in the history of mankind.
What I’ve found is tons of irrefutable evidence supported by reputable third parties that MonaVie is a grossly overpriced product, with little nutritional value, wrapped in a poor business opportunity that appears to be illegal pyramid scheme, supported by nonsensical “scientific” studies and illegal medical claims.
That’s a lot to digest. I’m going to give you a minute to re-read that.
Typically when people are interested in MonaVie, they are focused on two things: 1) The nutritional value of the product and 2) the business opportunity. After all, the promise of MonaVie marketing is health and wealth for you and all your friends.
MonaVie’s Nutritional Value
Many of MonaVie’s claims come on something called a ORAC value. It’s a lab test that measures anti-oxidants in food. On the face of it higher ORAC seems better, but there’s a lot more to it than that. I’m not a doctor, so I’m not going to try to explain ORAC to you. However, Dr. Jonny Bowden explains that MonaVie doesn’t cure cancer and gives great detail about ORAC in the process.
There are a couple more issues with regard to MonaVie an ORAC values. High on the list is that MonaVie lies about the ORAC score of MonaVie. They published two widely different scores.
Many distributors make the claim that drinking 4 ounces of MonaVie is like eating 13 fruits and thus is a way to save money. This is a huge lie. MonaVie put out marketing material that said it “Delivers the antioxidant capacity of approximately 13 servings of fruits and vegetables in just four ounces.” MonaVie set up a the classic telephone game where the initial message conveyed changes as it passes through the downline and the words, “antioxidant capacity” get left out. In this statement, the antioxidant capacity is measured ORAC value, and the equivalent fruits and vegetables are not even mentioned. A MonaVie product specialist cleared this up when called, but MonaVie didn’t issue a clarification or change its website for years… see more at Drinking MonaVie is Not Equal to Eating 13 Fruits.
To follow up on the above, a single apple has the antioxidant capacity of 9.5 ounces of MonaVie. If a person was relying on four ounces of MonaVie to give them the equivalent of 13 fruits, they are making a huge nutritional error as 13 apples has the equivalent ORAC value as 123 ounces of MonaVie. MonaVie Original retails for around $1.48 an ounce, so that’s around $182 of juice for the equivalent antioxidant capacity of 13 apples.
A consortium of U.S. government agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), USDA, and the FDA to put out guidelines on fruit and veggies and serving size. The result is that 4 ounces of MonaVie is a Serving of fruit which looks like 1 snack container of applesauce (4oz) or about 6 baby carrots. At MonaVie’s retail price of around $6.00 for four ounces that’s like buying a baby carrot for $1.00!
If you need a little more evidence on the nutritional value of MonaVie, Men’s Journal put several fruit juices to the test using criteria set up by a director or clinical nutrition. The result was horrendous, “MonaVie tested extremely low in anthocyanins and phenolics. Even apple juice (which also tested poorly) has more phenolics…” and “Plus, MonaVie’s vitamin C level was five times lower than that of Welch’s Grape Juice. That’s not many nutrients, especially at $1.20 a serving.” Website changes have divided the article into many pieces, but the you can read it in two parts: part 1 and part 2 with the MonaVie-specific comments.
What do national doctors have to say? Dr. Andrew Weil gives a thumbs down on MonaVie, Dr. Dean Edell calls MonaVie worthless, and Dr. Joe Schwarcz warns against acai health claims. These are all unbiased, nationally-recognized doctors.
I could continue to give facts about the lack of nutrition in MonaVie, but perhaps the creator of MonaVie itself is one of the best sources. The Salt Lake Tribune reported this interesting information that came out from a lawsuit with Amway:
The suit also uncovered an internal MonaVie memo by Ralph Carson, the company’s chief science officer, who created the original juice. The memo was in response to raised eyebrows about claims being made about the juice. Carson cautioned that the drink was “expensive flavored water. Any claims made are purely hypothetical, unsubstantiated and, quite frankly, bogus.”
Those claims that he’s referring to are the illegal health claims that we’ll get to in a bit.
Juice in general is not healthy
Another aspect to consider is that juice itself is shown not to be healthy. For years we thought it was healthy, but that thinking has changed and many view soda and juice as being the same. The HBO documentary Weight of a Nation clearly spells this out.
Here are some key quotes from that video: “Soda and other sugary drinks… is the only individual food that is directly related to obesity”, “There is nothing in a soft drink that is good for you. A Twinkie or a potato chip or a candy bar has at least a little nutrition. These sugared beverages have none at all”, and “Juice is just like soda… there is no difference. When you take fruit and you squeeze it, you throw the fiber in the garbage. That was the good part of the fruit. The juice is nature’s way of getting you to eat your fiber.”
When we take the statements above together, juice the same as soda, soda having less nutrition than a potato chip, it is clear that MonaVie can’t be nutritious. The processing has stripped out the fiber… the good part of the fruit. Some may argue that MonaVie is only four ounces a day and it’s not going to contribute to obesity. Well that 120 calories a day does add up… in a year it is 12.5 pounds (43,800 yearly calories divided by 3,500 calories in a pound).
(To prevent MonaVie distributors claiming that HBO doesn’t know anything about health, Weight of a Nation was done with “the Institute of Medicine (IOM), in association with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the National Institutes of Health (NIH).”)
As you can tell from the label above, MonaVie doesn’t have much of the fiber that comes from fruit naturally. Recently MonaVie started to add “fake” fiber (Fibersol-2 / Maltodextrin), so consumers looking at the nutritional label could be easily tricked into thinking that they are getting the good part of the fruit.
Need another source? Here is the New York Times article by three professors of pediatrics who explain “Juice is Not Healthy”.
MonaVie’s Specialized Health Drinks
MonaVie adds a special ingredient or two to its basic juice to create a juice for a specific purpose. The above illustrated the minimal value of the juice alone. Let’s look at a few versions:
MonaVie Active – This MonaVie juice’s star ingredients is glucosamine. In four ounces of MonaVie Active there are 1500mg of glucosamine. On Amazon.com, I found that you can get 375 tablets of Kirkland Glucosamine HCI for a price of $22.55 (as of 6/8/2012). It takes two tablets to equal the 1500mg of glucosamine in MonaVie Active, which comes out to 12 cents a day.
For a year, the Kirkland glucosamine will cost you $43.80. For a year of MonaVie Active (4 ounces * 365 days = 1460 ounces is about 58 and half bottles (25 ounces per bottle). At the retail price of $45 a bottle, 58 bottles costs $2,610 a year. You can save some money by buying MonaVie Active in bulk, but you’ll never get the price under $1000, especially with shipping. You’ll save at least a thousand dollars, perhaps two thousand by going with the equivalent cheap solution from Amazon or your local drug store.
With this noted, scientific research shows that it probably is not worth buying glucosamine at all.
MonaVie Pulse – This MonaVie juice’s star ingredients are plant sterols and resveratrol added. In four ounces of MonaVie Pulse there are 0.8g of plant sterols. I couldn’t find the amount of resveratrol. On Amazon, I found CholestOff, which actually has 0.9g of plant sterols. The 240 tablets, 120 servings, costs $22.22, which is 18.5 cents a day or $67.59 a year.
MonaVie Pulse is typically the same price as MonaVie Active above (around $2610, but cheaper if bought in bulk) and it too will cost you thousands more than the much obvious cheaper solution.
What about the resveratrol? Without knowing how much is in MonaVie Pulse, we can’t really make a fair price comparison. There is this resveratrol, which will cost you $76.19 a year. The combination of CholestOff and this resveratrol is still a bargain at around $140 compared to spending a couple of thousand dollars and not knowing how much resveratrol you’ll get.
While plant sterols have been shown to the FDA to help cholesterol levels, resveratrol remains and unknown… A couple of articles show that we might need to wait for legit evidence on resveratrol.
MonaVie M(mun) – This MonaVie juice’s star ingredient is Wellmune, a patented derivative of baker’s yeast from the pharmaceutical company, Biothera. Four ounces of MonaVie M(mun) has 250mg of Wellmune in it. Once again, I went to Amazon and found Immune Health Basics, which has 500mg of Wellmune. It costs $37.49 for 60 capsules or about 62.5 cents for 500mg. Since this is double the amount in MonaVie, the true cost per serving would be a little more than 31 cents. It costs $114 for a year’s supply of the same amount of Immune Health Basics as you’d get in MonaVie M(mun).
The pricing of M(mun) follows that of MonaVie Active and MonaVie Pulse above, meaning that you’d save thousands by buying the capsules of Immune Health Basics.
When you do a little more research you’ll find that Wellmune is also similar to beta glucans, a pill that you also might be able to find cheaply. When I last looked into Wellmune, around the time that MonaVie announced M(mun), research as to whether it was helpful was conflicting. One study of people found that they missed no more sick days than the placebo group when taking the product.
MonaVie MX – This MonaVie juice has the star ingredients of Active (glucosamine) and M(mun) Wellmune. Also, in addition to the basic 19 fruit juices in the juice it has 11 vegetables. Below, we’ll cover in more detail why this isn’t necessarily a good thing. As for pricing, this product like all of MonaVie juices is around $40, but in this case a few extra dollars due to having the glucosamine and the Wellmune in it.
MonaVie Essential and MonaVie Kosher – MonaVie essential seems to be a rework of “MonaVie Original” which is the basic juice with no star ingredients. MonaVie Kosher is a basic juice with no star ingredients that has been certified Kosher.
Bottom Line on MonaVie Nutrition: Any way you slice it (pun intended), MonaVie is not a good source of nutrition when compared to time-tested advice of just eating fruits and vegetables. If you are thinking about MonaVie as a dietary supplement, it represents the worst value for you dollar… and it isn’t even close. The examples I gave of a single person spending thousands more than equivalent product is multiplied when you consider a family of four. That family could save an average of over $6000+ a year by replacing MonaVie’s juices with products found in your drug store or on the Internet. Depending on your tax bracket, this simple decision could be the equivalent of getting a $10,000 raise tomorrow or winning a lottery that pays you $10,000 for life.
Does MonaVie Work?
While the talk of many, many testimonials may seem convincing, such testimonials are typical with any MLM product, especially health ones. The fact that you can many testimonials for dozens of other MLM products shows that these testimonials are not unique to MonaVie products… or any ingredients in those products. Instead, there’s a wide variety of psychological phenomena with MLM health products that give people the perception that the products work. For more details see:
No Your MLM Health Product Does Not “Work.”
The MonaVie Business Opportunity
MonaVie is sold via multi-level marketing also known as MLM. I’ve written about The Business of MLM (or What Gives Freddy Krueger Nightmares) before and is terrible. Here’s a quick recap… click on the links to read more in detail:
- Around 99.54% of People Lose Money in MonaVie – This analysis was done using MonaVie’s Income Disclosure Statement (IDS) the last time they included the number of distributors to make such calculations possible.
- No Barriers to Entry – Since anyone can be a distributor for usually very little money, anyone can be your direct competitor.
- MLM Distributors Lack Control of the Business – MonaVie can take your business away whenever it feels like it for whatever reason they want. I think MJ DeMarco might have said it best in his book Millionaire Fast Lane, “I was involved in four MLM companies. Not once do I remember dictating product decisions, research and marketing, marketing restriction, rules, cost analysis or any other activity fundamental to owning a business. As a network marketer, you don’t own a business – you own a job managing and creating a sales organization… MLM distributors are commissioned employees disguised as entrepreneurs.”
Below we’ll get to the point about MonaVie and pyramid schemes. We’ll cover how “creating a sales organization in MLM” can be considered as participating in illegal pyramid scheme.
- MLM and the Reality of Saturation – Recruiting people into MonaVie is where the Diamonds make their money. The problem is that the market is already saturated. You simply can’t go to the top of the pyramid anymore because those positions have been taken for years. In order to get there you have to build thousands of people under you and if those people wanted to be juice salesmen they would have been long before now.
- Understanding the Churn Rate in MLM – Somewhere between 60% and 90% of distributors in MLMs leave the business every year because of the first bullet point above. They didn’t make any money. MLMs replace these people with new hopefuls because their sales pitch is enticing. When MonaVie recruits someone they tell them that they too can have health and wealth for them and all their friends. Who wouldn’t want that? The scheme churns through people every year with enough people quitting and joining so that the pyramid scheme never explodes past the population of the earth.
MLM distributors like say that it is up to the person to do the work and not be “Lazy.” Well I’m an expert on Lazy and I can tell you that isn’t the truth. In MLM, losing is not a matter of effort, it’s a mathematical certainty. The circumstances surrounding the system set people up to fail.
MonaVie’s Illegal Health Claims
When I first wrote about MonaVie and wondered why people would spend $45 on juice, I had no idea how the product was marketed. I was shocked as distributors left comments connecting MonaVie to helping with cancer, autism, fibromyalgia, and just about any and every other medical condition under the sun. MonaVie has not been approved by the FDA to help with such conditions making these claims illegal.
It wasn’t until later that I learned that MonaVie CEO was the Vice President of Dynamic Essentials a company that madeRoyal Tondan Limu juice. The FDA warned the company about website claims to treat various diseases such as cancer, arthritis, and Attention Deficit Disorder caused their products to be in violation of the law. The company continued to sell the product and the FDA and Department of Justice fined the company millions and went as far as destroying the product. The action essentially put an end to Dynamic Essentials.
Dallin Larsen held “fireside chats” with hundreds of people. There is one “fireside” chat on Archive.org. He tells this convincing story how Dynamic Essentials is part of a publicly traded company with products in Wal-Mart and that they found this fascinating ingredient called Limu Moui. He goes on to essentially claim that limu that unique benefits to help with the system. At the 7:25 minute mark of the audio, Larsen tells of how he just came back from a tour talking to people who have used the product and tells of the stories he heard and how it has helping with asthma, arthritis, chronic fatique, fibromyalgia, lupis, migrane headaches, etc. He then goes to say that “We can’t make [the claim that you aren’t going to get cancer and heart disease]… I know that this product is having a benefitial impact on people’s health.
MonaVie, is an identical copy-cat of Royal Tongan Limu juice, but with acai instead of limu. The illegal health claims that I’ve seen in the comments on my article and elsewhere on the Internet come straight from the leadership.
Newsweek did a story on MonaVie in which Dallin Larsen acknowledged that while MonaVie has an 18-person compliance team which investigates distributors making false claims, “It’s next to impossible, like herding cats.” In short, MonaVie opened Pandora’s Box with their distribution system. The proper solution to fix this systemic problem is to distribute the product like Ocean Spray or Welch which doesn’t have these problems. MonaVie refuses this logical solution that would prevent consumers from be defrauded out of their hard-earned money and still allow them to get the product to those who were interested in it.
When I found MonaVie distributor Mitch Biggs claiming that MonaVie prevents swine flu, I decided to help out MonaVie’s compliance team and let them know. Mitch Biggs should know better. He was a MonaVie Emerald Executive, one of the top 166 distributors at the time, who make an average $155,000 a year. My goal was to find out how MonaVie would enforce the its policies and procedures which allow it to end a distributorship who is caught making illegal claims. Would MonaVie do what’s right and make an example to show distributors that they can’t be making these claims? Or would MonaVie cave, not wanting to create a rift amongst its distributors? The answer: Mitch Biggs Scams People and MonaVie Condones It.
A recent commenter suggested that MonaVie’s compliance was doing its job, so I showed him this story, which is about two years ago as of this pointing (June 2012). I decided to go an look and see if MonaVie is still letting Mitch Biggs be a distributor, which lead me to this video on a local news show. It seems like Mitch and Ashley Biggs are making erroneous and deceptive claims multiple times saying that MonaVie is an “easy, convenient and tasteful, way to get your fruit every day” and “just an easy, easy, way to get your fruit.” As we saw in a section above, MonaVie’s Nutritional Value, this is quite untrue. The spot even took the effort to bring a vase of 13 fruits to illustrate the deception.
It may seem like I’m picking on one distributor, but this is a leading distributor who was made an example of once before and yet continues to break the law publicly. If this is the stuff that is going on in the open, imagine what is going on behind closed doors!
Some may suggest that this is an isolated case – one example of a bad seed that every industry has. That’s simply untrue. It is a systematic problem which is so prevalent that Dr. Johnny Bowden’s article that I mentioned at the very beginning of this article was titled, “No More Claiming MonaVie Cures Cancer!” These are the kinds of things that happens when you tell distributors that they can be millionaires if you recruit enough people to buy a juice that happens to be priced at 20 times more than other juices. The distributors have to come up with some way to market the obscenely overpriced product. They are naturally going to try to make a point that it is a value for consumers as a replacement for medicine or something seemingly expensive like buying a vase of 13 fruits.
MonaVie’s Deceptive Marketing
If I were to go into depth about MonaVie’s deceptive marketing, I would never finish writing this article. This article is already so long that I wonder if you’ll read it. There’s just too much to say. I also think I covered a lot of it above. So here I’ll just give a few more examples:
In the above section, MonaVie’s Nutritional Value, I went into detailed the 13-servings of fruit and ORAC score myth. That’s a typical example of the marketing to keep in mind. Here are a few others:
- 19 fruits in the juice – MonaVie adds all these juices because the public has a perception that more juices is better. That’s not necessarily true. Regular readers know that a mutual fund with more stocks does not necessarily out-perform those with fewer stocks. A pizza with a 7-cheese blend is not necessarily better than one with a 3-cheese blend. In fact, the more ingredients, the easier it is to dilute the ingredients that MonaVie touts like acai. When you have 18 other fruits in addition to acai, the amount of acai could be less than 6% and still be the first ingredient on the list. However, if MonaVie only had 2 fruits and acai was listed first, you’d know that you are getting at least 50% acai in every ounce.
- Freeze-dried acai – For years MonaVie touted the amount of freeze-dried acai because it had a huge ORAC score. The reason it got such a high score is the fact that water was taken out, which allowed them to pack more powder per ounce. However, it was shown that MonaVie is less than 2% freeze-dried acai, meaning that even with a high score, there wasn’t enough of it to make a significant difference.
MonaVie’s “Studies”
MonaVie relies heavily on their Scientific Advisory Board, specifically Dr. Alexander Schauss. Schauss has a long list of reputation problems. One of them was that he faked his credentials and got a mail-order PhD degree from California Coast University. MonaVie pitched Schauss as an expert on acai, but they are the only ones who recognized him for anything like this. The reality is that Schauss was the supplier of his OptiAcai brand to MonaVie.
Schauss, through his AIBMR Life Sciences, pumped out a lot of “research” which could fool some people into thinking that there was actual science. In fact, MonaVie product specialist Erica Bryant wrote distributors to tell them that AIBMR is the only source of that they should use. Some of this research led to ridiculous papers such as this “Double-Blinded, Placebo-Controlled Study” on MonaVie by Schauss. It doesn’t take a scientist to see that it was made for the specific purpose of giving distributors fuel to recruit more people. Tellingly, the final conclusion of the study made mention of another study that showed that eating fruit had positive results as well.
MonaVie: An Illegal Pyramid Scheme?
I believe MonaVie is an illegal pyramid scheme. Here’s why:
[survata] The FTC has a lot to say on the topic of multi-level marketing (MLM) and pyramid schemes. The best article is this one: The Bottom Line About Multi-Level Marketing Plans that warns:“Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes. It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products.”
The entire article from the FTC is well worth reading. Here’s another important letter from the FTC which has this quote:
“The Commission’s recent cases, however, demonstrate that the sale of goods and service; alone does not necessarily render a multi-level system legitimate. Modern pyramid schemes generally do not blatantly base commissions on the outright payment of fees, but instead try to disguise these payments to appear as if they are based on the sale of goods or services. The most common means employed to achieve this goal is to require a certain level of monthly purchases to qualify for commissions. While the sale of goods and services nominally generates all commissions in a system primarily funded by such purchases, in fact, those commissions are funded by purchases made to obtain the right to participate in the scheme. Each individual who profits, therefore, does so primarily from the payments of others who are themselves making payments in order to obtain their own profit. As discussed above, such a plan is little more than a transfer scheme, dooming the vast majority of participants to financial failure.”
This appears to be how MonaVie works. Distributors in the upline earn commissions based on the purchase of other distibutors below. The distributors below are required to be “active”, which means either:
(A) buying product themselves or
(B) selling twice the requirement to a preferred customer
When a distributor satisfies the requirement by (A) buying product for themselves and MonaVie pays a commission to the upline on that purchase that it can be considered a pyramid scheme using the FTC’s guidelines. This is the typical way that requirement is satisfied. The distributor application for MonaVie prominently includes the Auto-Ship Program (ASP) so that new distributors can satisfy the active by buying product requirement right away.
The option (B) to qualify as active by recruiting enough preferred customers, is a new option. Previously the only method was the above option A) which makes it quite clear that MonaVie could only be viewed as a pyramid scheme. With the new option (B) it becomes a little more complex. Since (A) is a sign of a pyramid scheme, we need data from MonaVie on the percentage of distributors that qualify through the (B) option. (MonaVie doesn’t disclose this information.) Anecdotal evidence tells me that the (B) option is quite rare. As explained in the above section, MonaVie’s Nutritional Value, MonaVie’s juices represent a poor product at an extremely expensive price (approximately 20 times the price, ounce for ounce, of other 100% fruit juices). In the rare case that a preferred customer is buying the product, it is mostly like that they were sold on the illegal medical claims or deceptive marketing, as described in the section above.
For more sources about MLMs and pyramid schemes from the FTC and others, I’ve put together a compilation here: MLMs Vs. Pyramid Schemes
[/survata]How you can help put an end to the scam
The best way to put an end to this scam is to go to the FTC Complaint Assistant and file a complaint. A recent article on CNBC had comments from the FTC saying that few people file complaints on these schemes and thus they rarely put in the resources to investigate them. There are two reasons why there are so few complaints:
- People are brainwashed from the beginning that the system “works”, and “the only variable is you.” Thus people feel as if it is their own failure rather than recognizing the system was mathematically set up to fail over 99% of people from the beginning.
- The FTC doesn’t do anything. You leave a complaint and that’s the end of it. The complainant gets no follow-up from the FTC and there’s never any evidence that the complaint is ever read. It’s fundamentally terrible system… but that’s what we have to work with.
With that said, if you’re as upset as I am about people being lied to and defrauded out of their money, please leave a complaint. If you do, please sent me a quick mail. This way, I’ll have an idea of the minimum number of complaints that MonaVie is getting.
MonaVie Mynt
Update: MonaVie has started marketing to college students and those who have recently graduated. These are probably the worst candidates for such overpriced MLM products. They have little income and often high student loans. I believe that MLMs have nowhere else to turn as the general population know that it’s a scam. I think they believe they will catch them early before they’ve gathered the wisdom to know to stay away.
I wrote a whole article about MonaVie Mynt.
[Editor’s Note: This article itself is a constant work in progress. I didn’t have the space to get into explaining the scamming behind MonaVie’s MORE charity. Publication deadlines force me to publish this without proofreading. In the future, I hope to go into more of MonaVie’s products like its RVL line of weight loss, which is a copy of other other MLMs and also a terrible value compared to the equivalents in stores. However, at this point, it does more to help people to get this information in their hands quickly and that means saving some of the editing for another day.]
Vogel says
Thanks bro! You and Strangely and Lazyman have been doing such a great job of countering the BS. I’m just kicking back and enjoying watching you guys run with the ball.
Oh, good grief.
Bob…Bob…methinks your head has been bobbing around in the juice for too long. All of the links you just posted have been thoroughly debunked ages ago. As you would know, if you had taken the time to read.
Yawn.
someone has no idea what a credible reference is
youtube, the reference book for all scientists since never
“youtube, the reference book for all scientists since never”
Yoda strikes again! You are a comedic Zen poet of truth Lattimore.
Great to see that you and Candace are still tuning in.
If I had known this would have brought the band back together, I would have done this long ago.
You Tube has many links from credible sources re: Mona Vie. I recommend all readers check them out. Some from Fox News are good, others from Dr. Manny, others from Mona Vie, others are testimonials from people realizing benefit.
——————————-
Lazy Man – contrary to your false accusation I never said I reject factual evidence should any be presented or available. To the contrary I’ve asked for it.
You sent a link to an article found in a Men’s Journal about a partial test conducted by a nutritionist who did NOT test ALL properties or ingredients found in Mona Vie, but only a select and purposed few. The limited sampling was not at all inclusive nor comprehensive.
The nutritionist admits to focusing on 4 points looked for in a juice per her opinion as she said that “I look for”. One of those things is age prevention which we all know does not exist.
That inconclusive and limited test was at best partial. If there is a comprehensive and all inclusive test showing negatives about the components in Mona Vie products we’d be glad to see them, if you can find any.
Your claims are that ALL Mona Vie products are bad for consumers. Back that up with factual evidence. Discussions about sales people that lie have nothing to do with the product factually.
I DID point out in my last mail that I had not had time to read all archives that may contain a link to something credible or factual to support the negative claims. My interest, as repeatedly conveyed is in the product and nothing more. I do not consume sales people. I consume product. If I were to recommend Mona Vie, I would not recommend sales people simply the product. If I were to benefit from Mona Vie benefit would not come from sales people but from the products. I suspect so much is being said about a few lying sales people because there isn’t much to prove the products are bad for anyone. You sent a link regarding pregnancy and I will take a look at it.
Simply because Cy or some other knucklehead writes a string of feudal remarks laced with name calling and insults, doesn’t make what he says, fact If anything, it makes him look the worse for showing such immature and regressive behavior.
While he may at times say something connected with an element of truth, he does not provide the support necessary. He rambles on about sales people that lie, a company who in his opinion does not take action against sales people making claims they shouldn’t etc.
None of that is relevant, pertinent or material to the products benefits, testing, comparing or analysis.
I also said that I am not selling Mona Vie. You & Cy responded with lying accusations claiming falsely that I do. Neither of you have any factual knowledge about me nor about what I do. This is the same tactic that has been taken throughout the commentary. Spout crap as though it’s fact hoping some dummy will believe it. Where’s the facts and the truth?
You accuse others of lying yet do the same. Not very impressive.
I find many positive things about Mona Vie on line and on You Tube with very few negatives.
Readers can see that much of what’s been said the past few weeks lacks support and evidence. The monolith of rhetoric has been personal and opinionated. Such a waste.
Negative claims about the product need to be supported by facts. Where are the facts? If they are in archives, produce them.
READERS – it’s interesting to note that when writers fail to provide supportive evidence against Mona Vie products, they can do nothing more but change focus and misdirect the conversation to non-related topics such as sales people who lie to make a sale. Sales jargon has nothing to do with a products abilities, benefits, or lack thereof.
Coupled with that is the inability to stay on point re: product defects. I have found on line as you will, many positives about the product and its benefits. When trapped the one write says if you are bat-poop enough to buy it … which of course shows his position weak and not at all impressive.
My interest, as repeated is about products. You claim the products are defective or bad for consumers. Where is the preponderance of evidence to support such claims?
As you like to twist, distort, and misdirect what is said, for the record I did not say that every comment made is mere opinion however, much of what’s been touted without backup seems more of a personal nature evidenced by personal language and attacks.
Provide links to something credible than mere self serving and empty dialogue.
Florida University studies show that the Acai Berry in Mona Vie combats Leukemia cells. That in one of the links I provided is an evidence of fact about the product. You say testimonials are invalid and yet people wrote here and are on line saying blood pressure dropped, they’ve lost weight, they feel better, back pains and other maladies are gone, etc. Is the rest of the world wrong?
Rather than continue the mindless spew of personal attacks having little to no substance how about changing the channel providing readers with something concrete, evidence in the form of facts to backup your negative claims.
The infantile tyrants provide no proof of anything, only that one poor soul gloats in the sound of his own voice and believes that such childish behavior wins the battle.
Again, You Tube is loaded with links to many who claim positive results from Mona Vie. Are so many deluded liars suffering from placebo effects? Let the public decide.
What began as a fact finding journey has sadly resulted in a childish Hatfield – McCoys type feud touting irrelevant, impertinent and immaterial remarks of nothing noteworthy. Let’s change that channel to Discovery.
READERS are interested in credible evidence to support claims.
I found this newscast about Mona Vie on Fox News describing the juice’s benefits and mentioning the Florida University study showing improvement in fighting Leukemia Cells. See link below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMu6XaTi5qk
chuckle, Lazyman.
As for Bob in Fl, it’s clearly too much for him to even read the beginning of this posting, let alone the myriad comments and references.
Those “FACTS”, (why shout Bob?) were dubunked eons ago – check at the top for the fake Dr Schauss for instance….?
So economic Darwinism it is then, Bob in Fl.?
LM:
The band is never far away!
I am always reading, not much time for replying, but never missing anything. :-)
Lattimore, I agree with Vogel, that has to be one of the best replies I’ve ever read.
SInce it’s been mentioned, hi everyone, great to “see” you all again. ;-)
@Vogel
Thanks!
Monavie’s distributors use surprisingly complex psychological mind-games to try and dupe people into buying their schtick, and since I seem to have a knack for seeing straight through it all, my contribution here is to try and arm people with the tools they need to do the same.
I leave deconstructing the juice and the business to folks like you. You guys are capable of addressing it all far more adeptly than I ever could. So please do jump into the fray if the mood strikes you, Vogel. It’s always a pleasure to see you do your thing.
@ Strangely
Thanks!
I saw the light years ago, when at the age of 16 (!) I and my mother both were recruited into what I had no at the time was an MLM. Well, I shouldn’t say that we were recruited, because we ultimately didn’t join. We went to a meeting that left us both feeling really uneasy, and after discussing it we decided that we’d rather not get involved.
I think the primary sticking-point for us, besides of course that the guy who pitched the business opportunity to us sounded an awful lot like an infomercial salesperson, was the unusual emphasis that was placed in that meeting on recruiting other people rather than on the product itself. Which I believe was some form of insurance or another. The $300 “recruitment fee” that was asked of us, which also covered necessary materials of course, didn’t sit all that well with us either.
Now of course this particular MLM hits home in a very personal way for me, which is why I’m so invested in making sure that people don’t get duped by it. If what I do is of any help at all, then I’m glad to do it.
Bob said: “Lazy Man – contrary to your false accusation I never said I reject factual evidence should any be presented or available. To the contrary I’ve asked for it.”
It wasn’t a false accusation. The factual evidence you are asking for is here, and that fact has been pointed out to you repeatedly. No one can blame you for not wanting to sift through all the 6000+ posts, but if you don’t, you can’t keep demanding that the information be spoonfed to you. Now you’re just covering your ears and shouting “I can’t hear you”.
Bob said: “You sent a link to an article found in a Men’s Journal about a partial test conducted by a nutritionist who did NOT test ALL properties or ingredients found in Mona Vie, but only a select and purposed few. The limited sampling was not at all inclusive nor comprehensive.”
You can’t call it a partial test because they didn’t measure every single compound known to chemistry. Monavie hasn’t published comprehensive data of the kind you’re asking for, so why would you expect Men’s Journal to provide it? And the test was not conducted by a nutritionist; it was conducted by Chromadex, a reputable independent analytical laboratory.
Men’s Journal chose 4 compounds as the benchmark for nutritional value and they applied that benchmark equally to all of the products tested. The compounds were phenolic acids, anthocyanins, vitamin C, and beta-carotene – a perfectly reasonable panel of compounds to analyze in such a test. The results were as follows: “MonaVie tested extremely low in anthocyanins and phenolics. Even apple juice (which also tested poorly) has more phenolics than this Utah-based company’s juice. Plus, MonaVie’s vitamin C level was five times lower than that of Welch’s Grape Juice.”
The main premise for the hypothetical nutritional benefits of acai is that it’s allegedly rich in anthocyanins and polyphenols; even Schauss’ Monavie-sponsored research stresses this point. And yet, when independently tested, Monavie was found to have low amounts of these substances. We even went through Schauss’ data carefully and confirmed it. Even the alleged creator of Monavie, Ralph Carson, admitted that the product is “expensive flavored water” and that “any claims made are purely hypothetical, unsubstantiated and, quite frankly, bogus.” How much clearer can that be?
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/cougars/53061545-79/monavie-company-distributors-percent.html.csp
It’s bad enough that this scandalously overpriced product is non-organic and basically bereft of nutritional value, but to top it off, the product is preserved with sodium benzoate, which makes it a seriously substandard product, as you won’t find this controversial preservative in any other brand of pure fruit juice.
Bob said: “That inconclusive and limited test was at best partial. If there is a comprehensive and all inclusive test showing negatives about the components in Mona Vie products we’d be glad to see them, if you can find any.”
That’s quite the sleight of hand trick there Bob. I think we all would agree that the onus for conducting tests to show the nutritional value of the product is primarily on the company that makes the product. If you think that Monavie has some important nutrient that has not yet been considered, then by all means, be specific – tell us what it is. The company’s own research (by Schauss et al.) showed that the product was low in anthocyanins and polyphenols, and this was confirmed by Chromadex.
Bob said: “Your claims are that ALL Mona Vie products are bad for consumers. Back that up with factual evidence. Discussions about sales people that lie have nothing to do with the product factually.”
Oh good lord…no one ever said that all Monavie product are bad for consumers, and quite frankly, I find your deceitful histrionics to be insufferable. Smarten up!
Discussions about distributors that lie couldn’t be more relevant. It’s not just the distributors either; the lies run from top to bottom.
Bob said: “I DID point out in my last mail that I had not had time to read all archives that may contain a link to something credible or factual to support the negative claims.”
That adds to the list of reasons why you’re a dick. Like I said, I can forgive you for not wanting to take the time to read all 6000+ comments, but if you don’t take the time, you can’t complain that the facts aren’t there.
Bob said: “There isn’t much to prove the products are bad for anyone. You sent a link regarding pregnancy and I will take a look at it.”
And it didn’t dawn on you that maybe you should have read the article first before commenting? I’m seeing a disturbing pattern here.
Bob said: “Simply because Cy or some other knucklehead writes a string of feudal remarks laced with name calling and insults, doesn’t make what he says, fact If anything, it makes him look the worse for showing such immature and regressive behavior.”
Ah yes, all those “feudal remarks” (eyes rolling). No, he didn’t look immature or regressive; he was (and is) smart and articulate, in marked contrast with your simian grunting.
Kurt Vonnegut described you to a tee when he said: “The big trouble with dumb bastards is that they are too dumb to believe there is such a thing as being smart.”
There is no point in wasting any more time to dissect and respond to the rest of your comments, where you degenerated into pages of repetitive crazed rambling and total irrelevancy. However, it’s worth noting that you’re little wolf-in-sheep’s clothing ploy was very transparent. You pretended to be a disinterested party and within a few day you made a Jekyll-and-Hyde transformation into a rabid frothing at the mouth defender of all things Monavie. Do you actually think your ruse is going to fool anyone? To say your act has worn thin would be a gross understatement.
You don’t have to say it with words, Bob. The way that you have…well, repeatedly rejected factual evidence says it for you well enough.
The lack of logic in that statement is absolutely stunning, really. It says everything that you need to know about the product that salespeople have to lie about it, Bob! And once again I’d like to point out to you that these lies aren’t remotely atypical, Bob. They are employed by the entirety of its sales force.
Bob, you do understand the irony in whinging about how I’ve allegedly insulted you and called you names after calling me a knucklehead, do you not? Again I must point out that you undermine yourself when you make blatantly hypocritical statements such as that one, Bob.
Also, I must reiterate that irrespective of how wounded your poor ego is by it, that I point out to our readers the many fallacies in your posts does not mean that I’ve insulted you, Bob. Calling a stupid statement stupid is not an insult either, nor is telling you that I believe that you have the reading-comprehension skills of a bowl of clam-chowder when you choose to selectively misinterpret things that we’ve said.
So hey Bob, if you’re going to continue to post here, and if your posts are going to continue to be devoid of facts and be largely made up of ridiculous logical fallacies instead, then you need to nut up and accept that I’m going to call you on it every single time. That doesn’t make you a victim, Bob, so please do stop your ridiculous whining already.
Oh, and the word that you’re looking for is futile, Bob. My comments don’t have much at all to do with the feudal system.
Well, setting aside that Lazy has provided you two very factual examples of how little action Monavie actually cares to take when clued into its distributor’s illegal activity (that would be none, Bob), which would most definitely put what I’ve had to say about the matter squarely in the realm of easily verifiable fact, I must once again do my best impression of a broken record and say that even had I not given you the “support necessary”, both the approximately 6,000 posts to the subject, as well as the aforementioned examples that Lazy shared with you, are pretty much why I don’t feel that I should have to pander to your ignorance. Especially not when you insist on remaining ignorant even when the facts are staring you in your assuredly slack-jawed face.
Now, where you have tons of demands of us regarding what we should or shouldn’t focus on, none of which are even remotely relevant given your complete lack of authority here, we have but one thing we ask of our readers. What is that one thing, Bob? It’s the totally reasonable request that they arm themselves with some much-needed context before posting. To that end we ask that people read the comment archives, or hell, even just the damned article. And you know why we ask it of them in the first place, Bob? It’s so that they don’t retread crap that we’ve covered hundreds of times like you’ve done here, but just as importantly, it’s so that they can avoid looking like ignoramuses, Bob. Which you do. And that’s not an insult, it’s an objective observation. In your stubborn refusal to read anything at all, your posts come off as incredibly ignorant and thus completely worthless.
Now as Vogel said, you’re certainly not required to read through those 6000 posts if you don’t feel like doing it. However, you really do rob yourself of the right to piss and moan about a lack of context when you only have yourself to blame for it, Bob.
Bob, I think that you overestimate your ability to sell the lie. Here’s just a few of the reasons why you can’t.
You began this debacle by saying you’re not a particular defender of any one juice and that you were only interested in an objective direct ingredient-to-ingredient comparison between Monavie and other juices, but then you immediately dismissed the Men’s Journal article as being idiotic for no other reason than because it was critical of Monavie.
You called our posts “slanted” before launching into a ridiculous screed about how people can’t be suckered into believing that things are good for them and that Monavie does work simply because you said so. As an amusing aside, you didn’t consider that only a sucker would take you at your word instead of paying attention to the loads of scientific evidence that proves that Monavie does not actually work after all, which you can find right in the article.
You said and did all of this and so much more while framing your posts as coming from an outsider’s perspective of both the business and the juice, but later on you admitted that you’ve been drinking the stuff for about a month prior to “gracing” us with your presence, as well as to also having attended a Monavie Millionaires meeting.
Now while that in and of itself is enough to make it clear that you’re not a mere consumer at the very least, you’ve also proven yourself to be completely resistant to the veritable mountains of factual evidence that we’ve provided to you, and your arguments are riddled with logical fallacies and transparent attempts at misdirection that just don’t make sense if we’re to believe that you really are just a consumer after all. You don’t directly address much of what we say to you, and instead cherry-pick things from our posts that you often intentionally misrepresent in order to serve your position, while you pad out the rest of your post by continuing to insist that we provide you facts long after we’ve already done so. Amusingly, you have yet to provide enough a single fact of your own, even though it would greatly bolster your position to do so. None of those are things that a mere customer would do, much less one who claims even now to be objective and simply looking for the truth.
So Bob, there are only two possibilities that could accurately explain your conduct here to-date. The first possibility is that you’re the only person on Earth who is insane enough to go online and over-zealously defend a product that he’s only used for a month in the most obnoxious and intellectually offensive manner possible. The second is that you’re just another in a long line of Monavie distributors who have tried and failed to use this site to help create the illusion that this stuff works and that there’s a market for it outside its sales-force by pretending to be nothing more than objective consumers.
Now, we know that the latter is absolutely you in a nutshell no matter how hard you deny it. Your conduct to-date is beat for beat the same as every other distributor who tried to use this tactic, and you have the exact same tells that they did. We can see straight through you, Bob, and the only one lying here about you being a distributor is you. Do yourself a favor and stop lying already, Bob.
And your point here is what, exactly? That the unverifiable anecdotes that Monavie distributors put up on Youtube are supposed to be worth more than the scientific evidence that we’ve collected together here that conclusively proves that Monavie is crap?
I just don’t really get what point you thought you were making there, Bob, so some clarity would certainly be appreciated if you wouldn’t mind. If for no other reason than I think I’ll really be amused by your rationale and I could really use a good laugh right about now.
Gotta love the childish logic on display here. And when I say childish, I mean that only a child would believe that something doesn’t exist until he acknowledges it, which is what this quote is really saying. The simple fact is that we’ve got plenty of factual evidence to support everything we’ve said here, but Bob’s just too big a coward to be bothered with it. His loss, I suppose.
When Bob finds himself out on his ass after his dreams of quick and easy riches fail to materialize, he won’t come back here and admit that he was wrong and maybe share his experiences with everyone. Some distributors have, but Bob strikes me as being far too stubborn to come back and offer us a sincere mea culpa, and its crap like his complete denial of the supporting evidence that we’ve shared with him that leads me to believe that. Which sucks, because the insight that former distributors bring to the discussion is invaluable.
Actually, the only interesting and even mildly noteworthy thing about that comment is that you somehow managed to write it without your head exploding from irony overload. Not only have you repeatedly engaged in misdirection from your very first post onward, but you continue to insist that we owe you facts long after we have provided them to you. And that, in spite of the fact that you’ve yet to give us a single fact to bolster your argument since you began to share your oh-so-charming textual diarrhea with us. Your hypocrisy is almost quaint at this point, Bob. You’ve certainly mastered the art, at any rate.
Also, please do refrain from telling us what is and isn’t on-topic on this blog, Bob. I mean, not only are you demonstrably wrong about that particular matter being irrelevant, but it’s simply not your place to decide what it or isn’t on-topic here. You’re just some random Monavie distributor from off the street who is pretending to be a consumer and failing so spectacularly at the effort. You have no authority to speak of here, Bob, though to be fair you still wouldn’t have any even if you weren’t a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Wow. I just…wow. There are some insane mental gymnastics at play there, Bob. Once again you demonstrate your resistance to reading, and in lieu of presenting facts to refute the factual and very credible research that we’ve done into the efficacy of Monavie as a health supplement/magical healing potion, you point to the fact that distributors have posted a crap-ton of illegal testimonials online as if it means anything at all.
It’s sincerely amusing to me to see you dig yourself so deeper. A smarter man than you would have given up while he still had some dignity to salvage, but I think you just used up what little you had left by going out of your way to paint a portrait of yourself as being stunningly delusional just so that you can continue to avoid confronting the truth. Is admitting that you’re wrong really so hard for you to do that you’d undermine your intelligence and the state of your own mental health to avoid doing it? Really, Bob?
You sure are quite the piece of work, Bob.
It’s all here in the comment archives Bob, so please do stop pretending like your ignorance is our fault, okay? Thanks, guy.
No, but you did say that every comment made here is slanted, and you’ve repeatedly said that we don’t provide facts even though we have, and even though the very article to which you’re posting now thoroughly addresses nearly every possible question that a truly curious customer could ask about Monavie and its products.
And actually, continuing to demand facts long after they’ve been provided to you tantamount to calling every comment that contains those facts an opinion, so…you actually have said it in a roundabout way.
It should be noted that the majority of personal attacks have been perpetrated by you, Bob. Also, I’m pretty sure that I’ve already addressed how its a fallacy to try to point at the language that people use in an attempt to undermine what they’ve said, so please do stop trying to do it already, Bob. It’s not going to work, kiddo.
I think you’ve spent more text trying to belittle me than you have on addressing any of the points that we’ve made. I must really intimidate you, eh Bob?
That’s why in spite of not addressing a single thing that I’ve said to you or asked of you, you are still all too eager to make reference to me in every single one of your posts. These passive-aggressive jabs at me are just a pathetic bid to cope with having met someone who outclasses you in every possible way. If I were a person of lesser character I might be flattered by it, but I’m not, so I’d really rather you stay on point and address the actual issues on the table here instead of constantly bringing me up as if you’re in love with me or something.
Oh, and for the record, I believe that the strength of my points will win me the battle, Bob. See, it’s just that I’m not all that hung up in the language that people use. Hell, I only ever even pointed out the fact that you’ve been insulting to me in order to demonstrate how much of a hypocrite you are. If you hadn’t have spent so much time crying about a post I made nearly three days ago now, then I wouldn’t have done that. You could have called me whatever four-letter word that you could possibly think of and I wouldn’t have cared at all. You still wouldn’t have said anything even remotely worth reading.
Well, I wouldn’t say that a genuine customer who sincerely believes that Monavie is helping him is a deluded liar. I’d certainly say that he is experiencing the placebo effect though, since that would in fact be the case. The problem is that those genuine customers are entirely hypothetical. They just don’t exist.
Now the distributors to whom those videos belong? Yeah, I’d call them liars, given that the science doesn’t support their claims. I’d also call them lairs because they’re only making those claims in the first place because the juice doesn’t sell itself at $40 a bottle without them.
And no, Bob, I’m not going to go over that science for you. It’s all covered right in the body of the article that you still haven’t bothered to read. Do your due diligence already and stop subjecting us to your patented BS, or just naff off already.
Sure they are. As long as their name isn’t Bob FL. Oh snap!
Anyway, Bob, it’s been a blast. I sincerely thank you for allowing me to flex my mental muscles in a way that I haven’t been able to since being laid off recently. Granted it hasn’t been much of a workout. You haven’t exactly given me much to work with here. Still, it’s been fun just the same, so thanks again, Bob!
Please do consider getting lost now, okay? Or better yet, don’t consider it. Just get lost already. That would be fantastic, Bob.
Dear Bob and anybody considering the MonaVie opportunity:
By requesting comparisons to other similiar products, you’ve missed the reality of the situation, which is the product is the business opportunity, not the juice. The juice, or in other cases, the soap, or the lotion or the potion is nothing but a front for the MLM pyramid scheme. The product itself is, for all intents and purposes, IRRELEVANT.
I think you should spend some time reading the links provided by Lazy referring to the work that has already been done here, on his sister site JuiceScam and the other non-related well researched consumer protection oriented sites he linked.
Often I feel bad for people like Bob who very well may have bought into the well packaged deception with all the best intentions of helping their friends and family. Unfortunately, a large percentage of the population are easy to decieve and lack the proper critical thinking skills (actually, most of us probably do when it comes to some belief or another).
Bob, please realize that the MonaVie compensation plan, which is practically identical to so many other MLM binary compensation plans, including Royal Tonga Limu, guarantees that 97% of the people you bring into this scheme will lose money, regardless of how hard they try, and that is a best case scenario which has never been accomplished. According to the last IDS where the numbers were disclosed the losses were worse than this. Do your research into MLM and you will find that over 99% of all participants have lost. This is what you are involving your friends and family in. You are not bringing them a new magic berry juice, but rather an old deceptive con intended to seperate fools from their money. If you do not yet realize this, you are part of the con, even if unintentional.
Again, it is the business opportunity that is being sold here, not juice. This is the case with most MLM companies, especially ones that requires autoship. It doesn’t matter how MonaVie compares to Zrii, or Tahitian Noni, or Zowii, they are all irrelevant fronts to legitimize the pyramid scheme compensation plan. Ironically, at least in the case of MonaVie, the juice is actually below average in most of the very things it claims to hold an advantage, let alone preserved with questionable chemicals.
I was sent this little gem of an article today. Take a look at slide 12 and prepare yourself for the hilarity.
http://money.msn.com/personal-finance/slides.aspx?cp-documentid=250043678
Hah! Amazing! The company made one shrewd preemptive move though — shifting most of their sales efforts overseas where people are less likely to be able to read English. Sad that this is their best (only?) defense.
They must be barely hanging on by a thread at this point. Complete implosion is probably imminent. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch.
The other reason why they shift sales efforts overseas is to start the pyramid scheme fresh there. The growth there offsets the implosion in the US when the company announces numbers on a global scale.
There was a good article in USA Today last year that I had missed until recently – Multilevel marketing or ‘pyramid?’ Sales people find it hard to earn much. One of the great quotes is actually from an MLM distributor:
That’s what triggered me to write about MonaVie in the first place.
First let me say: I do not Sell Monovie, I was a skeptic, but my husband wanted me to try it. So I am…..Infact………I was the biggest skeptic on Monovie. I have had asthma my entire life. My husband bought boxes of Monovie MX in hopes that it would help my asthma and maybe I would not struggle with breathing, almost on a daily basis. I have been taking Monovie 2 oz three times a day for almost a month. I was very sceptically that it would help and even laughed at my husband spending so much money on this magic elixir! However, after almost a month on Monovie I noticed a week or so ago that I was not having as much trouble with my asthma. AS I said, I have had asthma my whole life and most days are an up and down struggle to breath. I use to be a runner, but had to quit as my asthma could no longer take it due to I have allergic asthma so running outside was out of the question. I decided to stop all my asthma medications this past Monday to see if I could do without them and just take the Monovie. Thus far , and this is very unusual, I am fine, feel great, can breath with ease and have not taken any asthma meds at all , not even my emergency inhaler. So, does Monovie work? I cant say for certain. I feel better, Ive been taking Monovie for a month, I have a three or four month supply. I hope that the Monovie does work and it is not something else making my asthma not only better, but non existent. I guess I will know for sure in three months. If I can run again, If I can wake up every morning and breath without effort and not take anything but Monovie, then I will be a believer and eternally grateful! Like I said, thus far, Ive been off my medicine for asthma a week with no problems for the almost the first time in my life. This is not a sales pitch. I dont sell it. My husband just bought it to see if it would help me. I think it is!
Shannon, look into the placebo effect.
Shannon, while I’ve never noticed such an affect myself as an asthma sufferer, I’ve been told that eating fruits and vegetables that are high in Vitamin-C may help ease wheezing symptoms.
Now I bring that up because we have done the research that proves that Monavie is a fruit-juice of negligible nutritional value. So it’s not going to have any benefit to your health one way or the other, Shannon. However, even if it were comparable in nutritional value to simply eating fruits and vegetables, the best it could do for you would be to possibly help ease your asthma symptoms. It certainly wouldn’t outright eliminate your asthma itself.
So if we give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not yet another distributor who is pretending to be a mere consumer so that you can post an outlandish testimonial under the FDA’s radar, then you are most assuredly experiencing the placebo effect and could be putting yourself at serious risk by abandoning your medication.
Also, I’m going to assume that you’re on Advair and have an Albuterol rescue-inhaler as well, as those are pretty standard-issue medications for asthma sufferers like us. I can tell you from experience that both of those things are very effective, so I find myself wondering why your husband would be looking for alternative treatments for you in the first place, as well as how or why he came to settle on Monavie of all things. Especially when, if you have insurance that covers your prescriptions, a month supply of both Advair and a rescue-inhaler should cost you substantially less than a month’s supply of Monavie does, and those things most assuredly do work. It just doesn’t make much sense to me, y’see?
I found this article on the 25 rules of disinformation interesting and I’m surprised I had come across it before. I guess it’s been around the Internet since the 90s, but I hadn’t crossed paths with it.
Anyway, you can spot a ton of the rules in this discussion here from MonaVie proponents. A most recent and shining example comes from Bob where he discounted the independent, well-informed article on MonaVie by Men’s Journal and instead challenged me to come up with an exact equivalent product that is cheaper.
This is exactly number #19:
Excellent reply @Cyberxion – many times Mv protagonists arrive here thinking that the regular contributors are full of health and have no knowledge of illness & disease.
So to have someone with the same or similar condition point out the deficiencies in their logic is just brilliant!
Your final paragraph pointing out the errors in @Shannon & hubby’s cost/benefit ratio is really just great, and clarity personified, especially contrasting it to the motives of “the husband” wanting change.
Is @Shannon real, or have you opened a marital rift?
Thank you.
I was a distributor of Monavie for just under a year, and gave it up when my upline (mentor) admitted he was failing to live up to his promises to me.
Let’s be clear: there are a lot of people out there looking for a small business and supposedly, MLM schemes do all the spadework for you. Well, if that last sentence is your belief, a spell as a Monavie distributor will disillusion you.
I recall the silly nutritional content label on the back of the bottle (shown in your pic) and remember making some remarks about it to certain members of my upline. I said: couldn’t Monavie design a more impressive label than that? True, the MV publicity materials go into teh micronutrients (e.g. anthocyanidins)but the sticker is probably the least effective advertising I ever saw anywhere.
I also recall mentioning teh glucosamine content of MV Active to my upline, who happened to be an alternative practitioner with a regular supply of prospects to sell to. He retorted that you should better take glucosamine in a fruit base for better absorption. I was not very happy with his glib remark. After all, I could always swallow a tablet and eat an orange with it. why spend the price of a litre of whisky for its legendary benefits? Anyway, I ended up giving away my last bottle. I imagine the benefits of fresh acai fruit are genuine, but the Brazilian natives do not need to sacrifice $50 bucks a week to get them.
@ Strangely
Why thank you sir! I’d like to think that perhaps distributors might be more careful in the future, but I’m unfortunately not as deluded as they are, and so I know better. :P
Assuming that Shannon really has asthma at all, or that she really has lived with it all her life like I have, then there’s no reason why she shouldn’t be on at least one of the several highly effective medications available. So unless she’s treating her asthma with Primatine pills she should have it well-managed, and so I had to question why her husband would even be looking for alternative treatments in the first place. Moreover, what kind of jackass would believe that he’s found one that he could trust to work more than her medication in a bottle of fruit-juice of all things? And why the hell would she take it instead of just looking at the doofus and laughing in his stupid face? As someone who has his own asthma well in hand thanks to Advair, that just didn’t add up to me.
Now on the matter of the cost/benefit ratio in particular, I recall Lazy doing the math and estimating that the cost for a month’s supply of Monavie at the recommended daily dosage (ugh…) is approximately $175. Now, on my insurance plan, both my monthly supply of Advair and a rescue inhaler cost me $46 with a recurring $10-off coupon for the Advair. That’s a savings of $129 over a month’s supply of Monavie. Actually it’s more like $137, as I only have to buy my rescue inhaler every few months or so. So even if it works as well as my medication does, which of course we all know that it most assuredly does not, why would I want to pay more to get the same benefits I already get? Why would anyone?
Really though, it’s just painfully obvious that Shannon is another wolf in sheep’s clothing, so to speak. She didn’t mention what medication she was on for her asthma, for example. I did, because I actually have it. She didn’t, because she likely doesn’t, but most importantly because mentioning a given medication by name gives us too much information with which to refute her claims.
Then there’s the whole thing where she says that most days are a struggle to breathe, but then she goes on to say that she used to be a runner. If he asthma was truly as bad as all that, then she wouldn’t have either the lung-capacity or the blood-oxygen levels required to run any significant distance. I have mine under control now thanks to the medication I’m on, but I recall times when my asthma was at its worst that I didn’t even have the energy to walk to the mailbox, and I’d get winded when I did it. Running was out the question. Also, as an actual lifelong asthma sufferer, I knew better than to engage in any activity that might add additional strain to my already inflamed lungs, lest it result in a catastrophic asthma attack. So too should have Shannon. If she really was a runner, then it’s pretty clear that either he asthma wasn’t as bad as she claimed, or that she already had it well under control through medication. Which leads us back to the question of why her husband would have been looking for an alternative treatment in the first place, as well as why the hell she’d take it.
Also, while Advair does help immensely, in fact so much so that during my last checkup my doctor tested my breathing and noted that it was actually above normal for a male of my age and body-type, my asthma still exists and always will. I may feel like it’s non-existent at times, but I know better than that. It’s an incurable disease, and one that I’m prepared to live with for the rest of my life. I know this and so too should have Shannon. You don’t live with a disease all of your life without knowing it. So that she claims to have been cured is suspect enough, and that she attributes that cure to Monavie of all things makes it perfectly clear that she’s just another lying, egg-sucking piece of distributor gutter-trash trying to pass off lies in order to glorify the overpriced piss-water.
If I sincerely thought that Shannon had bothered to visit the site again after posting that, I might say that she probably regrets having been caught in a lie by someone who really does have asthma. I know better than that though, She just came here to plop down that testimonial and nothing more. Which, incidentally, is another pretty damned good indicator that she’s just a distributor.
@ Lazy Man
Great find there! I went down the list, and sure enough we’ve seen nearly every one of them in play here at one time or another. Hell, Bob in particular really seems to have cribbed his approach straight from that list! Good stuff, man.
A friend who had back pain gave my family about 5 cases of MV because after going through 5 cases he found it did not help at all; he thought our kids could drink it as juice.
Kids didn’t like it at all; however, I find its not too bad as a vodka mixer. I feel pretty good after drinking it that way.
Another commenter has mentioned that as well. Nice friend to give you that much juice. I would have tried to sell it on Ebay or Craigslist. $750 buys a lot of vodka mixers… and well vodka itself.
New article:
MonaVie Turns to Thought Control to Prevent Mass Exodus
I have a dear friend who is into this MV thing. I pretty much ignore her Facebook entries because as long as I have known her she has always been “into” something that promises to make her rich…or just give them that little “extra” to help with their bills. Just for the sake of information I decided to Google MV. I was not looking for info that MV distributors were putting out. I was looking for well, something like you have written. I found you on page two! Most people would give up after the first page. All this to say…thank you, I am now WELL informed! Sadly, when someone you care for is so deeply into the lie you cannot confuse them with the facts. But, one CAN always pray for them! :) Next stop, Ripoff Report.com…
Thanks for the comment Interested,
Multi-level Marketing (MLM) companies got together at the Direct Selling Association conference (an MLM industry conference) and decided the best way to protect their company from people exposing them is to push them to page 2:
“I was surprised to hear that nearly every company represented in the meeting had a ‘nuisance blog’ of their own–the equivalent to certain negative sites we ourselves have discovered. Common solutions from companies large and small included intellectual and/or emotional comments, lawsuits and the implementation of an SEO strategy. The consensus winner was to move the blog to ‘page two’ through the use of an effective SEO strategy followed closely by the suggestion that everyone simply leave the blog alone and let it die the death of poor circulation.”
That’s how these disreputable companies work, hide the information from consumers. A scammer doesn’t want their scam exposed.
Yes, I have noticed that but those of us out here who really ARE interested will also keep digging…I have been known to search all the way to the end of the page listings on some subjects! Hang in there…you’re doing a great service. Saves us truly lazy people a lot of legwork! :D
Thanks, Interested. You might be interested in the piece that I just wrote MonaVie Turns to Thought Control to Prevent Mass Exodus
You might also be interested in Emergency Handbook: What to Do When a Friend Loves Woo
LM…..I love all of your research and all of your writings! It’s what helped me get out of this mlm while I still had some money left. Not to mention the very bad medical reaction my wife had to the products( which we have proof of). Please keep up the great work. Thanks!
You’re welcome Bill. I can’t take all the credit. Vogel and many others have contributed tons of information in the comments here. In many ways, I’m just organizing the information available.
I don’t know if you feel you are doing people a service, but a lot of what is said here about MLMs is misguided and a extremely unfair. The reason for failure in MLMs is the same as the failure for any legitimate business. Excel Communications made over 1,000 millionaires. How do you explain that? What are the odds of a person making the major leagues in baseball, football, or basketball? Astronomically low. So I guess everyone with that dream should quit now, because baseball, football, and basketball stink, given the fact that 99.9% of the people that try for it fail.
You need to realize that the percentage of people making huge money in MLMs mirrors the percentage of people making huge money in ANYTHING. The difference is a combination of work ethic, support system, and yes, luck.
I obviously give you zero credence since I am a person who is making some really nice money in my opportunity. Will I be wealthy with it? Maybe, maybe not. But for the amount of money I put in, and the amount of effort (not enough) that I put in, the residual incomes are amazing. There are thousands and thousands of people making money…many significant amounts – in the 6 figures per month…yet you choose to discount that and try to insinuate that MLMs are not legitimate businesses. In fact, they are.
There is a reason successful people are called “the 1%.” It’s because only 1% have the drive and initiative necessary to achieve meaningful success….talent and knowledge not withstanding. Clue people….watching re-runs of Seinfeld is not going to make you any money.
For anyone reading this complete and utter trash, if you choose to give it any credence, look to yourself as the reasons for your complete lack of success in your life. For the vast majority of people who put down people in MLMs, they are average joe’s praying that they don’t get laid off on a whim in Corporate America, endlessly cry about their financial positions, but like crabs in a bucket, when you see someone trying to get out, rather than help the person out, or simply stay out of the way, you feel the need to crap all over someone else’s dream of gaining financial freedom. If you truly want to make big money, the fact remains that MLMs are still your best odds mathematically speaking.
Good luck to everyone in their endeavors, whatever they may be.
The reason for the failure in MonaVie is that is the compensation plan has stacked the deck against the distributors. It is not the same for other businesses as you suggest. You should give a read to It’s Not a Matter of Effort, it’s a Mathematical Certainty. It shows that it is mathematically necessary for many, many others to lose to fund those who do make money.
Yes, the odds of making it as a professional athlete are very low. I’ve used this example myself many times in the past. I know that I’m not going to be quarterback of the New England Patriots. Most people understand that. However, when it comes to MLM, there isn’t that understanding amongst distributors that they are almost certain to fail. In fact, they are shown the opposite and the successful people are paraded across a stage and shown in videos on cruises and at beaches. It’s simply false advertising on a grand scale.
Additionally, it is rarely disclosed that the success people in the MLM very often came from another MLM and didn’t do anything to move up the ranks in the current MLM. Brig Hart brought his people from Amway and became a top MonaVie distibutor without having had to pitch a plan to anyone.
John Verrill said,
What you fail to mention here is that the money for those making huge money in MLMs comes from the large losses of thousands and thousands of people. It comes from conning people into thinking that drinking this juice will help them with medical conditions. In short, it comes from large scale fraud.
Work ethic and support system play a very small role in MLM success. I’ve often compared it to hitting a hole-in-one in golf. Sure a terrible golf player will have almost no chance of getting a hole-in-one, but even excellent golfers find that the odds are so far against them that work ethic and their support system does not improve their odds to the point where they’d have a reasonable chance of success at getting holes-in-one.
John Verrill said,
You are making the mistake of looking at yourself as the norm and not taking a total view in. An analysis of MonaVie showed that 99.54% of distributors lose money and that’s not even counting expenses of running the business, which would push it much, much higher. To put that in perspective that’s 138 people in 30,000 doing better than break even… and that’s just in the costs required by buying juice. Put in the full costs of running the business (conference fees, travel, samples, sales tools, etc.) and it probably less than 10 in 30,000.
You seem preoccupied with those very few successes and quick to ignore the other 29900-ish people who lose thousands.
John Verrill said,
This is a more appropriate place for It’s Not a Matter of Effort, it’s a Mathematical Certainty.
John Verrill said,
You realize that this website is about gaining financial freedom, right? That’s why I started it. I’m not crapping over someone else’s dream of gaining financial freedom, I help them achieve it. One of the ways to achieve it is to not get scammed into spending $150 a month in expensive juice for a business “opportunity” that guarantees around 99.50% of people MUST lose money, no matter how hard they work. There a reason why I give people five minute financial fixes and write dozens of posts on how they can save money.
How on earth did you come to the conclusion that the best odds of making big “mathematically speaking” is in MLM? The odds are similar to playing the lottery, but with a lot of work involved.
First, let me clarify since you seem to be under the impression that I am in Monavie. I am not involved with the business end of Monavie although I do drink the juice. I am not involved in the business for one simple reason: I do not want to sell juice. No matter how good I think the juice is, convincing others of this is not my passion.
That said, only in the world of MLMs do customers buying products get tagged as “people taking losses.” So because I feel I receive value for drinking Monavie, because it is an MLM, I am now “taking losses.” However, if I buy a can of coke that costs 5 cents to produce (or whatever) at $1.25 per can, for the benefit of a multi billion dollar corporation, somehow, that’s not looked at the same way.
Avon, Amway, Primerica are all scam companies because they are MLMs….but Maybelline, Proctor and Gamble, and Met Life are all legitimate because corporations make the margin rather than people.
Success in MLMs ABSOLUTELY comes down to work ethic. The people who you refer to who get in and fail are the typical everyday run of the mill person who expects to get into MLMs and have it magically produce results. They don’t go to trainings. They don’t read self-help books. They don’t generate a written list. They don’t get on conference calls. All this can be done and is done with little or no cost. Instead, they point to the guy at the top and say “He makes money off me, and doesn’t help me.” What these people (and yourself) fail to realize is that contrary to what you say, the guys at the top started out of a box just like you and when out there and did the work.
Another huge fallacy is that people getting in feel like they are going to get in and get all their family and friends to help them and when they don’t, they simply quit. This is so unrealistic. For one, ANY business you start will fail if you think you are just going to succeed with family and friends. For another, much of your family and many of your friends have no interest in seeing you succeed, and will say it’s a scam, or their not interested etc simply because they are losers, and they don’t want to see someone else with drive succeed, particularly someone in their family or circle of friends. If you are not planning to run the MLM as you would any other business that’s part of the problem.
For this reason, when people mention the very word “pyramid” or start asking “how much have you made?” I realize I am already dealing with the wrong person and I tell them that my opportunity simply isn’t for them. What’s funny is the same people that ask me that at the beginning and tell me I’ll wait until you do it come back and say “I can’t do what you did” when I get there. The simple fact is that people are too busy playing Farmville, Angry Birds, and watching American Idol to put into a business.
It’s also funny that the US Government recognizes MLMs as legitimate businesses and allows me to write off expenses you mention, in addition to my cell phone service and the laptop I bought for the business, yet you do not.
I did read the other parts of your site. What’s most disturbing is that someone who has such a great site, someone who I would normally think had some great ideas, has such a dim and narrow (and totally incorrect) view of MLMs.
Nevertheless, I am not here to convince you. That could never occur. You are locked into your bs view of MLMs. I am simply here so that other people coming to you looking for guidance will see that some people do succeed in MLMs, they are legitimate businesses, and all you have provided here is yet another excuse not to work.
I came to the conclusion that mathematically speaking the best odds of making big money in two ways: 1- reading and 2- experience. The Trump reference you made was totally twisted. Donald Trump said if he had to make a fortune from the ground up he would do it with MLMs. That is true. However, starting the “Trump Network” was not joining an MLM. It was like you said trying to capitalize on his name, and the growing trend toward MLMs. The odds getting rich in an MLM are far greater than going to school, getting a job, and working your way up to CEO of a company. Yet the masses find it totally acceptable to work their whole lives (if they are lucky enough to be able to keep a job considering the state of corporate America) and never be able to really enjoy life, or retire.
Listen, anyone reading this, take comfort in being average if that’s what you want, because the Lazyman has given you your excuses. Thankfully, I know many people on the cusp of bankruptcy who got into MLMs and somehow, the odds didn’t keep them away. They did the work and have averted disaster.
For anyone interested in looking into me and my back round, I am easily findable as I am on linkedin. Just so you don’t think I am some professional MLMer, I was in Corporate America for 15 years. I am in an Union now and had experience with another Union. I do my MLM part time and make a lot of money doing it, particularly relative to the effort I put in (which again, is not enough).
By definition, failing in MLMs can’t be a Mathematical Certainty if thousands and thousands have succeeded.
Good luck killing people’s dreams and keeping them firmly entrenched in their mediocre, average lives. By the way, there’s nothing wrong with being average, having a white picket fence with 2.5 kids and a dog if that’s what you want. But that shouldn’t necessitate you bashing someone else who wants more out of life financially.
By the way, Prosper is better than Lending Club. :-)
I’m under the impression that you are in MonaVie, because this article is about MonaVie. This isn’t a good place for general discussion about MLM. Entire books could be written on it (and they have). If you want to discuss MLM, I have a website MLM Myth that covers a variety of specifics including the business and how to tell if an MLM is a legal or an illegal pyramid scheme. That would be a more appropriate place to continue a general discussion. Even there, I suggest that you stay on the point of the article and not go into free-form about everything in MLM as it is like debating everything about all religions in one article – it is just too broad.
John Verrilli said,
The reason for this is that customers are required to buy the product to participate in the industry in almost all cases. That is an admission fee to be in a business that is billed as a path to financial freedom or even the “best odds at huge money” (to paraphrase your words). If it were optional it could be discussed in a different context. If I were to work for Nike, they wouldn’t require me to buy their shoes. They would probably give me an option to buy the product at cost, not 10x cost as in MonaVie and other MLMs. (LifeVantage’s Protandim is sold “wholesale” to distributors at 30x cost).
When you buy a can of soda, you are often paying for a lot of overhead such as the transportation (soda in quantity is heavy to ship), shelf-space, advertising, and even refridgeration. I don’t know about you, but I can walk into a grocery store and buy Coke for around 25 cents a can in a 24 case pack. If you are paying $1.25 you are bundling other factors not related to the cost of the can of soda itself.
However, more importantly, it is worth noting that Coke sells relatively close to their competition. Pepsi and generics are priced near the same. MonaVie sells it’s 100% fruit juice blend for around $40 for 25 ounces ($1.60 an ounce). I’ve bought V-8 Fusion’s 100% fruit juice blend for $3 for 46 ounces (6.5 CENTS an ounce). That’s MonaVie pricing it’s product more than 20 times the norm at grocery stories.
This is what I mean by taking losses. Viewed a different way, it would be like buying a Honda Civic for $200,000 so that you be in the business of selling other $200,000 to people. You are taking the loss of some $175,000 to get into the business.
Even MLM proponents say that the products are too expensive in this USA Today article that shows that people aren’t earning much.
John Verrilli said,
Do you mean this Avon? Or the 150 million that Amway paid to settle a pyramid scheme charge in Europe? I haven’t looked into Primerica.
As the FTC says:
You can’t trot out a few specific MLMs and use that to prove a case that they are not scams. I’ve looked at 50-60 MLMs and haven’t found one legit one yet. If you want to point out one, I should look into go ahead, but the last time an MLMer suggested that I looked into a good one they suggested Visalus, which was anything but good.
It’s also worth noting that public corporations (like P&G) are owned by people in the form of stock who are paid. As mentioned before in MLMs, the people rarely make the money. For example in the case of MonaVie, the private corporation MonaVie, LLC makes far bigger margins than Coke by selling it’s product for $40 a bottle.
Success in MLMs does not come down to work ethic. I showed the USA Today article above where the people did all the work and all the right things and did not have success. It is because the circumstances for success in MLM require having recruited thousands of people in your downline which mathematically can’t be done before there is too much saturation. You can get on conference calls, make lists, and read self-help books, but none of that is going to change the hard, cold reality that you need to recruit thousands of people who are willing to lose money month after month. If they realize that they are losing money and quit, then you have to find another
suckerperson to replace them.Some of the people started out of box… i.e. from scratch, but certainly not all. Also, many of those people started in the 1980’s (or before) at Amway and did it before the market got saturated. If you have a time machine and want to get started out of a box back then, good for you. I’d just buy some Microsoft or Apple stock.
Also if you look at an MLM like One24, we’ve found that One24 Vice President Cherri Hoffman is Cherri Seyforth (related to CEO Mark Seyforth) and that Bob Hoffman, Husband of Cherri Seyforth-Hoffman is One24’s #2 distributor. That’s #2 as in the 2nd distributor allowed to distributor… i.e. top of the pyramid. Of the thousands of One24 distributors he’s in the top 3 in making money. Clearly, this has more to do with his placement at the top of the pyramid than it does about his amazing work ethic. He’s making money off of people he’s never had contacted with, so it is impossible to attribute this money earned as coming from work ethic.
This kind of stuff happens more often than it is reported because companies can get away with it.
As for your family and friends comment, I have rarely seen someone so wrong. You make the claim that ANY business will fail if you are depending only on family and friends. While that is true, that is because reputable businesses make money on selling products, and selling products to that limit set is going to set you up for failure. Success in MLM is built around recruiting people. Watch the One24 video from the 11th minute here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtR94NdSVEU. That’s an example where you recruit three people (easily possible from family and friends) and never do another thing. They are marketing a successful $117K a month income in just 18 months. That would be a successful business. Of course anyone with half a brain can tell that it isn’t sustainable because that one person has to have 78,000+ PCs in their downline. That’s why for every one winner there’s a bunch of losers… and why mathematically over 99.9% must lose money for the one to gain.
As for your family and friends having no interest in seeing you succeed, I simply feel bad for your lot in life to hold this view. Any rational person would love for their friends to be successful. If my friend becomes President, it bodes well for my own chances of success (hopefully with a job at the FTC). The reason why family and friends warn people to get out of MLM is the same reason why I, with no relationship to many of my readers do, it is a scam where it is almost impossible to break even. Another good unbiased article from a consumer advocate: Department of Duh: Multi-Level Marketing Is A Scam.
I realize that your cognitive dissonance doesn’t allow you to believe this, but it doesn’t change the reality of the situation.
John Verrilli said,
The FTC document on MLMs and pyramid schemes says:
and
So if a person comes to you who has done their research and is informed about MLM, you turn them away and say that the business isn’t for them. I guess that sums up MLM quite nicely – it’s just trying to find uninformed suckers to exploit. You are one of the first to admit it so candidly.
John Verrilli said,
How much in business expenses do you think Bernie Madoff was allowed to write off by the IRS in the 17 years that he ran his pyramid scheme? I’ll give you a hint, millions, perhaps even billions.
John Verrilli said,
The point about Trump saying that he’d try to make a fortune with MLMs is that one can’t take it as truth, because he could be saying that as part of his deal to license his brand via the Trump Network. We can’t tell if those are truly unbiased opinions. Considering that Trump can be a distributor any time he wants, he certainly hasn’t put any effort into proving his point. The odds of getting rich in MLM are not even remotely close to going to school and getting a job. Just breaking even is enormously difficult as I have illustrated with 99.54% of people losing money in MonaVie. Walking into McDonalds and washing dishes (if they have dishes) gives you 100% chance of making money. The odds only get worse as you try to start making big money.
You should take some time and read Millionaire Fast Lane by MJ DeMarco. He holds a view like you do about people working their whole lives and suggests starting a business. He goes into incredible detail about being an entrepreneur vs. being an employee. And he spends about 100 pages on what types of businesses are successful and why. He devotes about 10 pages to MLM, which he has been in and knows people with some success and failure and analyzes exactly why MLM is bad business. I’ve summed up a few of the points here: The Business of MLM (or What Gives Freddy Krueger Nightmares). Synopsis: No control over the business and no barriers to prevent competition are big ones. Also, you don’t really learn how to run your own business as you don’t deal with “product decisions, research and marketing, marketing restriction, rules, cost analysis.”
John Verrilli said,
It can if millions and millions have failed. Read Merchants of Deception and learn how even the people at the top that say they are successful really aren’t due to the hidden costs of running the business.
John Verrilli said,
I’ve never suggested that one strive to be average. Again this site was about giving people financial freedom early. Don’t pitch MLM as some kind of way to get more out of life financially, because the numbers are readily available. Take a look how few of the over 700,000 distributors in MonaVie actually make big money: http://media.monavie.com/PDF/IDS/IDS_Mid_Year_2009_Global.pdf (Note: read the fine print that these numbers only include the 87% of people who earned anything, so there’s a rank below Distributor not represented of some 700,000 people earning $0. Good luck trying to be 150 diamonds or so. Of course things have gotten only worse as Monavie admitted when they turned to thought control to prevent mass exodus.
John Verrilli said,
Having been in Prosper since February 2006 and being a paid author on their blog, I disagree. I talked to the CEO and even he admitted to losing money from 2006 to 2009. They’ve changed significantly since, but I still find Lending Club to be better.
“For this reason, when people mention the very word “pyramid” or start asking “how much have you made?” I realize I am already dealing with the wrong person and I tell them that my opportunity simply isn’t for them”
Yes of course, all successful business people never question or research what they’re getting into at all.
Of course you want non questioning idiots for mlm recruits.
Lazyman, sorry. This was the only site I could find that would let me comment. The MLM one didn’t seem to allow me to comment. I’ll check again. Maybe that was my mistake.
Lattimore: that thinking is why you either failed at MLMs are not involved. Non thinking idiots are exactly who I DON’T want on my team. I want people who DO do the research, who DO want better for themselves, and feel that my particular product is for them.
The reason I reject people who even say the word pyramid are because they are closed minded and therefore not make any money for themselves or my organization. I frown on (but don’t categorically deny) people who ask me how much I’m making because how much I’m making has nothing to do with how much you can make. I personally have recruited someone who makes more than I do now. That’s fine by me. Wish I could recruit one or two more like him.
MLM Myth should allow you to comment. I have received comments in the past.
It sounds like the non-thinking idiots are exactly who you are targeting since the FTC suggests those looking to be in MLM be weary that it could be a pyramid scheme and suggest that they ask their sponsor about their earnings.
You shouldn’t reject people who say the word pyramid. These are the people who have proven that they’ve done their research regarding the FTC warnings. They are open-minded and made the effort to learn more. You are being closed minded if you ignore the FTC warnings that some MLMs are pyramid schemes. You should do more research into MLM and find out exactly why these MLMs are considered pyramid schemes.
As for those who ask you how much you make, this is again a recommendation by the FTC. You know that the FTC is an unbiased organization that aims to help consumers make wise decisions right? While it is possible for someone in the downline to make more than their upline, it is very, very rare due to how the compensation plan works.
It’s interesting that you say that you are fine by the fact you recruited someone who makes more than you. However, according to you, if I join an MLM my friends and family, the people closest to me who had my back through thick and thin, will not be fine if I make more than them. It doesn’t make any sense.
@John Verrilli
Blah Blah Blah!!! I have heard enough of your crap. I was in MonaVie and my direct sponsor was the largest guy in Monavie (Steve Merritt). I did everything he asked and I STILL did not make any money. I lost thousands following the method.
Shut the F*** up and go home!
Thanks for the comment, WasADistributor. It’s been awhile. Good to see you around.
“that thinking is why you either failed at MLMs are not involved.”
You’re damn right thats why im not involved. I know better than to fall for your BS, just like everyone else here. The fact that you deny people who want to make sure what you’re peddling isnt crap speaks volumes.
@John Verrilli
Where are you? Did the truth hurt?
I thought so.
Another snake goes back into his hole.
I think John Verrilli left because I mentioned this is the place to discuss MonaVie and he had no intention of doing that. He just wanted to advertise his MLM to people.
You people either cannot read, or you are just so rabid that you don’t even think. Let me try to explain it to you again.
1. I didn’t “come” or “go” really, I just happened to come across this site and made a comment. I didn’t answer because I really have no intention on continuing making comments on this site. Unlike many people here, I am not in my mom’s basement sitting at a keyboard waiting to fire back comments like a coward calling people they don’t even know snakes. Bro, let me tell you something. I am easily findable so if you want to compare resumes and what I’ve done for people, we can easily arrange to do the comparison via personal e-mail or in person straight up. I guarantee my record compares favorably to yours, and you can find that out by contacting my references not from me COWARD.
2-Lazyman, you are either incredibly stupid, or you thing I am. Why in the heck would I come to an MLM bashing site to advertise an MLM? Also, I said a) I am not in Monavie and b) you can easily find me on Linkedin, so why you would make such a stupid comment is beyond me. From the other stuff on your site, you appear to be really smart, and other than the misguided and incorrect stuff on MLMs, the other stuff (Credit Sesame, which I do, Peer to peer lending, which I do) is really great so I am just going to assume it was a misstep and you got caught in to the rabid nature of this site.
3-My only purpose of making a comment initially was so that some poor soul looking for information on MLMs would see that some people have success in MLMs, tremendous success, in fact…and many people who were on the cusp of financial death have survived because of an MLM….many THOUSANDS of people despite your BS numbers. Once again, people fail because they get into MLMs, which are LEGITIMATE BUSINESSES by and large, try it for 2 weeks, and then quit. If you treat an MLM like a business, and work it over a period of time, you WILL have some measure of success and make money. The failure number is so high because so many people are lazy quitters.
Steve and Gina Merritt are multi-million dollar earners, at the top of all MLM earners. How did they do it???????
Finally, yes, it should speak volumes about me, on me not taking people that feel MLMs are pyramids. Why would I accept someone into my organization who a) feels its a scam and b) is going to fail because of a)????? I’d rather save that person the money and myself the headache.
There are lawyers in my business, doctors, accountants, financial planners…but somehow some guy who calls himself lazyman is going to tell me MLMs are no good. Well that’s fine. I’m here to tell anyone OTHER than the rabid bunch who inhabit this site…someone looking for direction, that MLMs are real, legitimate businesses. You need to find one you are passionate about and work it hard, like pro athlete’s work at their sport. If you’re passion is Financial planning, don’t join Amway, join Primerica. If you’re passion is cooking don’t join Primerica join Pampered Chef. If you’re passion is makeup join Avon, not Pampered Chef. Etc etc. But it won’t come easy and it won’t happen by itself.
I tell everyone I show the presentation for MY business which is NOT Monavie that it is a business and they will have to work. It’s not LOTTO. It’s a business that needs to work like any business. I don’t try to talk people into business, I am looking for people who are looking for an opportunity and feel mine is a good fit for you.
If none of this makes sense, then that explains why you are on this site, and why you don’t believe in MLMs. You aren’t business people. You are employees. AND THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. I too am an employee, and I never wanted a traditional business because it’s just too darn hard. Owning a restaurant, having a tax practice, owning a store – having employees, making collections etc etc. But when presented with the MLMs I did the research and felt it was a good fit for me. If it’s not for you, you have that right. But I don’t feel it’s right to try to sell people out of something that could set them up for financial freedom, and I feel it’s unfair and pointless as well to needlessly bash Monavie because you personally don’t believe in the product. (I think you are all wrong about that too but I really don’t care….)
Let’s end this thread now, and if you have anything personal to say, just e-mail me direct and we’ll hash it out. Personally, I’m not into this cowardly bashing over the internet calling people snakes. It’s really pathetic.
I wish all of you luck and I’m sorry if you understood my motives of being on this site but trust me, I am not here to advertise an MLM on a site of MLM haters.
Peace out, I’m not going to be back, so feel free to bash me all you want if that’s what you are into.
Regards,
John
I don’t know how much of the above comment about comparing resumes was directed at me, but if it was I have a couple of thoughts:
1. I don’t get the relevance. Comparing resumes doesn’t make MonaVie, or any MLM, any less of a scam.
2. You will likely fail. I have had 3 million visitors here and received many thank you letters for this article and others… including my How To Be Successful and my save money articles. If you have helped people via MLM, that is counter-balanced by all the losses that is caused to thousands by the few successful people in MLM.
The fact that you came here and disrepected the FTCs guidelines on MLMs about some of them being pyramid schemes and that one should ask how much the sponsor makes speaks volumes about how you help people. They are the actions of a snake, so if someone calls you a snake, you shouldn’t be surprised. If you change your ways to educate people about FTC and show them How an MLM Can Show It Isn’t an Illegal Pyramid Scheme and why your MLM qualifies (hint: it doesn’t) then you can go on about helping people.
John Verrilli suggested that he was advertising his MLM business, but there is this:
John said,
People looking for information on MLM are already fed the few success stories of the people at the top at the pyramid by the companies recruiting them. They don’t need more slanted and biased views. They need views from someone with no financial interest if they get in an MLM or not… someone like me who writes about core personal finance.
You realize that everyone that survives via MLM just pushes another 30 down towards financial ruin, right? Again, 99.54% of MonaVie distributors LOSE money from their own Income Disclosure Statement. The money lost goes to support the other 0.46%, which are the successes that you mention.
You don’t need me to tell you that MLMs are no good, here are some other good sources for you:
The Consumerist: Department of Duh: Multi-Level Marketing Is A Scam
Money Magazine: The Mess Called Multi-Level Marketing With celebrities setting the bait, hundreds of pyramid-style sales companies are raking in millions, often taking in the gullible.
USA Today:Multilevel marketing or ‘pyramid?’ Sales people find it hard to earn much
Inc. Magazine: Multilevel Mischief
The list goes on, but you want to discredit me and all my research because I chose “Lazy Man” in reference to my computer science background and how “lazy evaluation” is often considered the most efficient.
I love how you tell people that you have to work in MLM and other famous MLMers are telling people that MLM is NOT Hard. What you are failing to tell people is that the system is mathematically set up for you to fail no matter how hard you try.
Ummm, I’m not an employee. I am self-employed. This is another lie that MLMers tell people because statistically they’ll be right some 97+% of the time because most people are employees. Go read that Inc Magazine article that I mentioned above. That’s a real business person telling the story about how his friend being in MLM.
The reality is that in MLM you are not a business person, you are a commissioned sales representative. You don’t make any product decisions and the pricing decisions, due to them being so expensive already, are already made for you… you can’t price any higher and get business. You often can’t sell product in proven sales channels like Amazon or Ebay.
So if I see a car salesman selling lemons or any other kind of fraud, I should turn my head and walk away and say, “I’m not going to fall for that scam. It’s none of my business.” F*ck that! I’m going to expose the scam, because I hate to see society get taken advantage of by con artists. If you read this article on MonaVie and their lies about the 13 servings of fruit and a number of other things you’d conclude that they are the car salesman selling lemons. It’s been proven that the juice has little nutrition and that juice in general is not healthy compared to eating fruit.
I realize that it is unfortunate that I’ve exposed MonaVie and other MLMs for the scams that they are. I realize that you are looking for suckers who aren’t aware of the FTC guidelines on pyramid schemes. It certainly makes it harder to recruit people when they have access to accurate and reliably information about MLMs as presented here and at MLMMyth.org.
To All,
John Verrilli’s post is a perfect example of brainwashed MLM thinking.
@John Verrilli,
Are you aware that Steve and Gina Merritt actually have NEVER earned the millions that is reported? They briefly made approx. 100K back in 2005 when MV first got started. From that point on, MV has simply paid them to speak at conventions. They make ALL their $$$ NOW from speaking engagements and tools. NOT in recruiting or product sales.
@John Verrilli,
Did you also know that in 2009, MOST of the Black Diamonds in MV left MV because they lost ALL their downline. I personally watched this happen.
And any that were left seem to be leaving now: MonaVie Turns to Thought Control to Prevent Mass Exodus
I know I said I wouldn’t be back…but I just have to read the Thought Control thing. Is this serious? And is there any such thing. I will read it.
Once again though, I have to remind you, I am a drinker of Monavie, nothing more, so I don’t care if they collapse. I also want to remind you quickly that you pointed out that I shouldn’t post general comments about MLMS (which is what I wanted to do, not talk about Monavie) and I said that the general site didn’t seem to allow me to post there, and I apologized. Given that, I shouldn’t have been questioned on why I left.
Definitely will read the Thought Control thing. This is a time for some Pink Floyd.
Have a nice weekend.
John
Lazyman-
Actually, it wasn’t directed at you in any way, shape, or form but I would still gladly do the comparison. It was directed at the COWARD who said I was a Snake when he doesn’t even know me and won’t post his real name.
I am not trying to discredit you. I have said in a number of posts that a lot of the material OTHER than the MLM stuff is great. I just said I happened to disagree with virtually everything you’ve said about the numbers, except the failure rate which is probably accurate, but as I explained, mirrored the failure rate of not only every legitimate business etc etc etc.
I am not going to try to convince you, that’s not what I’m here to do, that would be as much of a waste of time as you trying to convince me that MLMs are guaranteed fails. I just made a comment and want to move on and not post anymore but you keep directing posts at me after I already said goodbye.
I’m sure you do good work and receive a lot of thank you’s, and again, I like a lot of your stuff. I myself use Credit Sesame and have NEVER seen it recommended anywhere until your site. Same with Peer to Peer lending although I like Prosper because of Chris Larsen. I have been with Prosper as both a borrower and a lender since 2006 (if I remember correctly).
Anyway, we are way off the topic of what you want to discuss which is Monavie – which I don’t want to discuss.
I did look for your link on the Mind Control thing but there isn’t anything I can find other than what you’ve said, that proves Mind Control even exists (I do not believe it does) let alone that Monavie uses it.
Might I at least add, since it is a Monavie thread, that I will admit one thing: I absolutely HATE the binary system of MLMs (MonaVie is Binary). That’s because in a true MLM, if you build an organization even if it’s in only one line, you can make positive cash flow…and potentially a lot of money. In Binary, you have 2 legs you must build, and you get paid on the lesser leg. So in a binary, what you describe as “IMPOSSIBLE” you must not only do once, but TWICE.
NOW THAT’S A F*CKING SCAM. And remember, I say that as an MLM Proponent.
Does that help? Binary’s SUCK, should be banned, and never, ever, ever join a binary system. I wouldn’t.
Again have a good weekend and good luck with your work.
-John
Enjoy Credit Sesame, I know their CMO and she’s a good person. I’ve met Chris Larsen a couple of times as well and he seems pretty cool. It’s just that even Prosper mentions that a lot of people lost money early on, because they weren’t weeding out the deadbeats well enough.
The “thought control”, thing was more of how MonaVie (and other MLMs) tell you who to be friends with and to unfriend the people who move to another MLM. They then play the “be loyal to us” card as well as drawing a line in the sand, “you are with us or against us.” This behavior doesn’t happen in any other legit businesses.
You are right about binary’s. They are terrible. That doesn’t mean any other MLMs are much better, but that is reason enough alone to not get involved with MonaVie or support them by buying their product.
Hi John,
I don’t think you bothered to read the first link Lazy provided. It appears to me that the math of Monavie works something like this: I sign up for autoship and pay $130 for my case of juice. I must now sign up 13 people on each leg (26 total), all paying $130/mo for their juice which is worth 100 points. Lets assume this is perfectly balanced, which is uncommon. I will be paid 10% of my lesser leg which is $130, I broke even. The 26 I brought in are all cash flow negative. 96% or more MUST lose now matter how hard they try or what system they are plugged into.
To be fair, everyone got juice. The value of that juice is discussed extensively here. My point is it is not a matter of opinion if many MLMs, and Monavie in particular, are a guaranteed fail, it is a mathematical certainty.
I would be very interested if you could explain where I may be off in my example or how the math is incorrect.
Unfortunately, I believe many that enter MLM don’t see the mathematical certainty. They don’t realize that they will have to have their friends and family spend over $3,000 (26 people x $130) just so can break even.
Dtm-
I did read it and I understand the math. It would be valid if we assumed that all these people were in Monavie to try to make money. It is said (and well known within Monavie) that 95%+ are merely drinkers.
For instance, when my friend came to me with the juice, I told him straight up I had no problem buying the juice because I believed it was a great product. I had no intention of being as part of the business. The reason is simply: I had no desire to be a juice salesman any more than I wanted to be a soap salesman.
I did become briefly involved with the MLM part of the business, against my will and better judgement. Essentially, I brought my mom and my sister the juice. I told them it was a really great juice (my mom is a cancer survivor so our family has become more interested in health foods). I noted that there was a business attached to the juice, but I requested they not get involved in the business, and to just drink the juice and if they liked it, they could buy it for themselves (i.e. just be drinkers). Well, that backfired because they both wanted to be in and requested I take them to a meeting: something I wasn’t even doing myself. Anyway, to cut this story short, they made some money for a while as did I, but it was short lived – in part because of what lazyman says here about MLMs (they are difficult), in part because it was never something I wanted to do, and in part because of the sh*t binary system which is designed to make it appear like people are helping you, but in reality it makes success exponentially more difficult. Had Monavie been a pure MLM, we actually would have made a lot more money.
The end result of this is that my mother, my sister, and myself are now Monavie drinkers like I originally wanted and intended. I never intended to be in the MLM and only was there 3 months, and did very little other than learn and observe. Any headway in the MLM was my mom’s and sister’s work. This was over 3 years ago. It’s the distant past.
The point of all this being that if 95% of the people are mere drinkers, then how can they be being said to lose money? The are receiving a benefit for cost. And while you and lazyman (and many others) feel that it’s a waste of money, that is not for you to decide any more than I can decide that buying a Mercedes for $60,000 is a waste of money when you can by a Toyota for $20,000.
One other thing you guys need to remember is that the Monavie craze started or really got going in the Rich part of Florida. They would laugh at the idea that $120 for a case of juice is a lot of money. They are all drinkers and drink for the health benefits they feel they are getting. Whether the value they are receiving for that cost is completely up to the person buying.
Success can be had in Monavie, as clearly people are succeeding. However, you need to overcome a heavy churn rate like lazyman indicated (that’s true) and a pricey product for the average person. In order to do that, Monavie needs to be your passion and you need to work at it hard and be comfortable approaching anyone and everyone (something I wasn’t comfortable doing because all my friends are of average means).
Another point of note, Lazyman says that many of the people in MLMs move from one MLM to another bringing their people from one to another. A couple of counter points. 1-If that’s true, at some point somewhere those people had to build an MLM organization SOMEWHERE. 2-The people doing that must have influence to be able to bring their people over. They must be true leaders. Also, this is no different than a Corporate Individual at the level of CEO who leaves a company and goes to be CEO of another company. This person assumes the rank of CEO, and may or may not bring their own people over. The point being, the person is not expected to start all over at the bottom. Only in MLMs is that an expectation (unfairly).
The MLM I am involved with is NOT Monavie which is why I did not really want to discuss it. I wanted to comment on general MLMs but it appeared to me the MLM board would not let me comment. Lazyman informed me I was incorrect, and he pretty much said this was a board for Monavie and I shouldn’t have posted general comments here. I apologized for that and have since tried to move on, but Lazyman (and yourself) directed comments at me that asked for an answer so I felt I should respond out of respect, whether you agreed with me or not.
I feel that Lazyman does have a lot of really good information on his various boards, and while I disagree strongly about general MLMs (I feel they are legitimate businesses with a high failure rate which is similar to the failure rate in any business you could start), I do agree that Monavie is an exceptionally difficult to succeed at financially. I also agree there are MLMs that are scams and some straight up illegal pyramids. I liken this to some corporations like Enron that were also scams and cost people their lives and life savings.
I am currently happy with my MLM because requires I distribute something that I feel comfortable distributing to anyone and everyone, it is a pure MLM (not a binary), and it has a very low churn rate. Most importantly I am making some nice money, meeting a lot of great people, and am learning a lot. That’s not what I came here to discuss though, as I generally don’t do my business on the internet PERIOD, and if I was, I wouldn’t do it on an MLM haters site. My original intention was to let people searching for their perfect fit in MLMs know that it can be done, you just need to find the product or service you are comfortable marketing, and put forth massive effort like you would in any business (if you want to make big money), and put in CONSISTENT and LASTING effort if you want to make part time money (like I do). You need to be on trainings and read self help books. If you sign up with the expectation that it will be easy, or your upline will do it for you…or you are going to give it a try for a couple of months…and you aren’t going to be on trainings, read self help books, and learn your craft, then yes, you will most certainly fail.
A good book to start with is “How to master the art of Selling” by Tom Hopkins. It is NOT geared toward MLMs it is about the selling of ANYTHING (including selling yourself like a job interview) or selling of ideas.
As far as the mind control thing Lazyman was talking about, I get what he means now. I agree that MLMs are “cult like” but I feel it is in a positive way. People are encouraged to be team members, read self help books etc. Self improvement is stressed in every MLM. I think that should be looked at as a good thing.
Anyway, I wish everyone luck here, MLMer or not (mostly not lol).
For those of you not in MLMs, I would recommend one thing: get involved into anything that will pay you for not working. Whether it be dividend paying stocks, rental real estate, taxi medallions (I currently own one in Chicago), or some form of business – it is well known by everyone that owning your own business and/or investing are the best ways to get wealthy. Unless you are one of the few who rise through the ranks in Corporate America and make mega money, it is very difficult if not impossible to make a real living exchanging time for money.
Good luck everyone.
-John
I explained it earlier, but a fair analogy with MonaVie is paying $300,000 for a Toyota in of a near equivalent Honda. This is 15 times the cost of a Honda, which is about how many time MonaVie is priced over other 100% fruit juices. It isn’t like buying a $60K Mercedes vs. a $20K Toyota. If that were the case, it wouldn’t be that bad. Getting people to spend $300K for a Toyota does constitute a loss of money. Receiving a benefit does not justify any cost. If that’s really how you want to play it, I’ve got some Forever stamps to sell you at $7 a piece. You just have to buy a book of 20 of them a month to be a member of my great business opportunity.
Which rich part of Florida are you referring to? I know that Brig Hart is in the Jacksonville area. That area is so cheap to live in that we’ve considered moving there.
If you’ve read the article there are no real health benefits to drinking MonaVie. And as for the value they receive for the cost, it is largely a factor of the sales pitch. With literally hundreds of thousands of illegal claims about it helping with diseases with evidence to back it up on the Internet, people were making buying decisions based on expected health benefits. The placebo effect shows that 30% will feel they received these benefits. Thus they are being sold a lie and paying for an illusion. The person buying has a right to accurate information, which is what MonaVie is trying to prevent from receiving when they admitted that they are going on an SEO campaign to knock this site down the rankings so that people don’t get the information.
John said,
This shows me that you haven’t really put any thought into MLM, which is bizarre from someone in MLM. One person may succeed by recruiting a bunch of people and then maintaining that or growing that despite the churn. As pointed out before, the break even, if everything goes perfect is recrutiting 26 people. Realistic is probably closer to 40. It isn’t realistic for a person to recruit this amount of people due to the reality of saturation of MLM. Most people will realize this an make the smart decision and leave a losing game. This adds to the churn and makes it even more difficult. In any case, this is similar to saying that success can be had in the lottery… it is mathematically limited to very few people. In the case of MLM, those few profitable spots have already been taken by people who have been building their downlines for years.
This doesn’t even take into account of finding people of above average means into the saturation calculation. The people with above average means aren’t going to be interested in another job as a MonaVie commissioned salesman. That’s paraphrasing my wife’s reaction to this (she’s a successful pharmacist). Those with above average means will most likely be educated enough to know that there are no particular health benefits from drinking 2 ounces of 100% fruit juice.
When distributors need to recruit people to break even and they can’t get those with above average means, they go with the desperate below average means people. They target sick and suggest that it will help with their condition through illegal medical claims. They target those who are desperate for an income after they’ve been laid off from work. The last thing these people need is $5000 yearly juice bill for their family of four.
It’s a despicable business.
As for the people moving from MLM to MLM, I agree that these people may have built a business somewhere. However, the point is that it isn’t the business that they are selling. If Brig Hart gets up on stage and says that MonaVie is great and that the business has made him rich, it is not completely honest. He should be telling people to join Amway, because that’s where he built his business. He can’t speak from experience about building a MonaVie business, yet that’s what many people in top MLMs do.
I wouldn’t credit people able to bring people to a new organization as a great leader. I would probably compare them with Jim Jones of Jonestown fame. Sure it’s not going to end up in a mass suicide, but being able to influence people should not be confused with leadership of positive things.
Your CEO moving to another company analogy is flawed. In the corporate world, success isn’t based on solely on recruiting a lot of people into the organization… unless you are the HR person. That CEO isn’t recruited to stand on stage as living proof that success is possible in the company like MLM. As I showed in the Brig Hart example above this is deceptive marketing.
Also, from a consumer perspective, it is very weird that my independent juice salesman one week could call me up and say, “You know all that Share It, Feel it, Live it, stuff I said about MonaVie. I’m no longer selling their product. However, I’ve got these collectible coins that are a great financial opportunity.” There’s no reason why an independent salesman can’t sell me both juice and collectible coins. There is no non-complete and juice and coins are completely separate businesses. Remember that a CEO is not an independent business owner.
I don’t know why you keep suggesting that the MLM Myth won’t allow you to comment. I believe there are only two pages that don’t allow you to comment: MLMs Vs. Pyramid Schemes and The Business of MLM (well the About and Contact pages as well). That’s because they are summaries of other articles. If you want to comment on Myths from the Direct Selling Association (DSA), it’s no different than commenting here, just go to the bottom and put in your information. I just put it a little disclaimer in case that was your problem.
As has been mentioned many, many times here, the effort isn’t helpful. It’s like trying to put massive effort into getting holes-in-one in golf… the odds are so stacked against you that it isn’t likely to matter much. No one in their right mind would put in 16 hours a day into such a practice expecting to get good at it.
As for MLMs being cults, you are missing a few critical points, like how they drive people away from family and friends if they try to convince them about the low odds of success. The MLMs will say that these people are being negative. It is not a positive thing drive people to put a wedge between people and their friends and family. Yes people are encouraged to be team members… i.e. join the cult. There is encouragement to read self-help books, but many of them are simply motivational in nature such as Rich Dad, Poor Dad. I haven’t seen any MLM offer a great book like The Millionaire Fastlane that covers being an entrepreneur in depth and explains why MLM is a bad business to get into.
Also, many cults do have to offer a few positives to keep people focused away from the scam. MonaVie offers MonaVie Perks, which is essentially a rebranded Entertainment coupon book that’s been around forever. They bill MonaVie Perks as a way to save thousands by being in MonaVie. That’s the cult explanation, “It’s helpful to your finances.” The truth side is that you can buy these books for about $30 (and they get cheaper throughout the year) and save thousands without having to buy $1500 a year in MonaVie juice.
You don’t need to take on the negatives of MLM to get the positives of self-help books or Entertainment books. If these people really wanted to be on your “team”, they’d help you whether you want to buy or sell any juice. The MLM companies wouldn’t tell you sever ties with your friends because they don’t want to their juice anymore.
Lazyman,
I don’t keep insinuating that I can’t post on MLM Myth. If you go back and actually read my comments, what I said was that I went to go post on another site here (I don’t actually mention it by name because I didn’t know the name) and that I was unable to. Perhaps reading your e-mail through, it was on the one of the one’s that don’t allow you to post, and I thought it was MLM myth. In any event what I did in the previous e-mails was apologize for the misunderstanding since technically I was posting off topic stuff here.
This is what you do with the MLM stuff too. You turn stuff that they say into something that it’s not. I have been involved with 3 MLM’s (only one seriously though) and my parents were Amway distributors way back. I have never heard anyone say to cut off friends and family. You mention turning to Mind Control to the point where you make it sound literal, to the point where I questioned you about it and it existence and you respond something to the effect that you mean the cutting off of friends, etc etc etc.
I think your analogies are way off base, and exaggerated. Like for instance, a $300,000 toyota instead of a honda, the hole in one example, the saturation thing…which is the most outlandish, because how can a market be saturated when 9 out of 10 people have never even heard of MonaVie.
These are all things people use as excuses to bash MLMs. Which is fine. If you want to waste your time bashing something that many many thousands of people know to be legitimate businesses and are succeeding at them, that is your right. You say they aren’t legitimate, but the IRS allows the business write offs. You figure it out.
I PERSONALLY know the owner of an IHOP in Brooklyn. I tried to show him my business. You know what his answer was? He said, “I’m sorry, but my previous experience was with Verizon. I’m a phone guy. So my MLM involves cell phones. But they all work. MLMs all work. You just have to pick the one right for you.” When I expressed surprised he said “Look, this IHOP business makes me a lot of money, but traditional businesses are a headache. I have to worry about the safety and security of my store, I had to put a lot of money down, I have to worry about employees and inventory. In my MLM I put down almost nothing to start and I don’t worry about any of that. I just look for the right people. I only do it very part time and I make close to $50,000 a year.”
That was some time ago, so who knows what he makes now, but who cares? The point is he believes it, works at it consistently, and makes a nice part time income doing very little work (he earns residual income).
As far as MonaVie goes, you are entitled to that opinion as well, but the bottom line is that there is something called “Market Forces” and Supply and Demand. If people are willing to pay the price for Monavie, MonaVie will continue to exist. If not, it will eventually cease to exist – whether you are here to bash it or not. My personal believe is that it is a solid product that will eventually suffer a decline because despite it’s perceived value (correctly or incorrectly), it is an expensive product which is non-essential. If you’ve noticed, the economic conditions in the last few years have been absolutely dreadful, and will get much worse. Non essential things like MonaVie are going to continue to be cut out of people’s lives. My investment strategy is beginning to be structured around those core beliefs. Invest in food and energy. Shun entertainment. But that is a whole debate for some other board. I personally could care less what happens to MonaVie.
I have put a ton of thought into MLMs over the course of many years which is why I am involved in them, albeit on a part time basis. My first MLM I was in over 20 years ago. I don’t think that opportunity was for me, and also the timing just wasn’t right….but I used my time in Primerica (what I believe to be a great company) as a learning experience, after which I simply looked for the right time and the right MLM which ironically found me instead of the other way around.
What your wife said is 1,000,000,000 percent incorrect (exaggerating like you do). It is an unfortunate paradox, but desperate people on the cusp of financial failure are the exact people that typically shun MLMs (along with any other opportunity). Unfortunately, my experience with MLMs have led me to the unfortunate reality: the broke are broke for a reason. Instead, the well off – the people who don’t need to save money, or make money in an opportunity, are the one’s who have shown to be the most open minded, and of the people who have partnered with me. The more successful someone is in their outside life, the more successful they are in an MLM. It all comes down to the same common factors: open minded, self-confidence, hard work, discipline…all the things you refute and say don’t help in MLMs – but they do, and hence that’s what I look for.
For my part, I just find it odd that people who have struggled in Corporate America, being out of work, laid off, either in a vicious series, or for extended periods of time, simply go back and look for more opportunities to be laid off and fired. Gone are the days when you can work for someone for 40 years and retire. To me, it’s the equivalent of a woman who gets beaten by her husband and instead of hitting the bricks, she keeps coming back again and again and again. After being let go as part of a Corporate Sponsorship, being fired as part of a merger, and finally being let go because, to put it nicely and without going into great detail, “eliminating a position” I realized that Corporate America is now flawed, where people have become nothing more than another expendable item that can be disposed of without regard to a person’s productivity and without care for the person’s life. Also, if your boss feels you are better at their job than they are and they are insecure, they will fire you. (A confident boss will look to promote, using you as filler for his job).
It’s a shame, because the last place I worked in Corporate America was fantastic. Due to my career change, I had to walk off the job without the ability to even give notice – something I regret to this day, although I did explain to my employers my personal situation (I was put in a NOW or NEVER situation) and they understood. I did have a great 15 year career and took many things from the experience, but I got to the point where I could no longer accept the prospect of living day to day with the uncertainty of whether I would have job at 5:00 pm the same day I walked in at 9:00 am. It’s just unacceptable.
We will never agree on MLMs. There are millions that feel as I do…they are legitimate businesses….and there are millions like you that feel they are illegitimate. I have zero interest in trying to convince people that don’t believe because that would be counter productive. You and I are just having a discussion here. It will benefit neither one of us. The only one it will benefit is some random person you or I will never know who looks at our back and forth discussion and decides one way or another. I will help get the right people in, and you will help keep the wrong people out. It’s far easier to look for someone who does believe in the legitimacy of an MLM and then see if they are interested in my business or not. I am not in the business of convincing.
I am curious to know what caused you to latch onto MonaVie like a pitbull and not let go, whereas it seems you have absolutely no problem with a Company like Phillip Morris, that produces a product that kills. I have a woman who criticizes me for drinking MonaVie who spends at least at much on cigarettes as I spend on MonaVie.
(you don’t have to answer that).
Anyway, good luck again, and like I have said in many previous posts, I think you have a lot of great stuff on your various different sites, I just happen to disagree with your take on MLMs. That isn’t going to change any more than you are going to change. I agree to disagree.
Good luck in all your endeavors.
-John
John, the difference is as simple as the disclaimer that’s on the side of every pack of cigarettes that Phillip Morris sells. “Smoking causes lung cancer, heart disease, emphysema, and may complicate pregnancy.” It spells out the potential consequences for using the product in a way that allows consumers to make an informed decision about whether or not to do so.
When it comes to Monavie, customers are not given the opportunity to make an informed decision about its various products. The bottles do not display the “These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease.” disclaimer that it is required to by the FDA*, and both Monavie and its sales-force lie about the efficacy of the product as a magical panacea that will replace all of your prescription medication and cure everything from Asthma to Zollinger-ellison Syndrome, as well as everything in-between.
That’s the difference, John, and it’s an important one. It’s why we do what we do here. It’s only by virtue of sites like this one that potential customers can find the information that they need in order to make an informed decision about Monavie.
That goes for the business opportunity too, John. I’m not going to address everything that you’ve said point-by-point, but the reality is very much that anyone who is looking to be his own boss would be mistaken to get involved in an MLM. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, as you seem prone to instead talk around it and repeat yourself ad infinitum as if doing so will somehow alter reality, failure is in fact a mathetmatical certainty when it comes to the MLM business-model, and we want people to know that. Again, it’s about arming folks with the information they need to make informed decisions.
* An exhaustive search turned up no evidence that the required disclaimer is located on any of the company’s products. It is located on its web-site, however, though it is located in an unintuitive place and is displayed in incredibly tiny fine-print, which of course ill-serves anyone who might be talking to distributors.
The point of posting on MLM Myth is that if you want to discuss any general MLM topics. That is where you should comment. If you are having trouble commenting there, hit the contact button and discuss it with me offline. If it is some other site not related to this one or MLM Myth, I don’t really care about it. I can’t control other people’s websites and whether they allow people to comment or not.
If you have never heard any MLMs say to cut off family and friends, you really haven’t been in MLM. I haven’t been in MLM and I’ve heard it. There are tons of comments here about it. It’s not just MonaVie though, it’s LifeVantage Protandim, it’s One24, it’s every MLM that I write about. In face you even said a version of it:
This is part of the brainwashing that they do. They combine this false logic and associate it with “negativity” and “dream stealing.” You mentioned the stealing of dreams as well, when I only help people achieve them through strong financial advice.
So the brainwashing story goes (paraphrased): “Friends and family that say it is a scam don’t want you to succeed and are losers. They just want to steal your dreams so you can feel better about yourself. If you want to be successful, you can’t be surrounded by that negativity.”
I know that’s not what you have said, but it’s such a common story that I’ve had to write about MonaVie and Negativity a couple of years ago. Every MLM that I’ve covered has said that I’m being negative on it. Nope, I’m watching out for people’s wallets, which is quite a positive, helpul thing.
You are wrong about my analogies being exaggerated. MonaVie costs ounce for ounce about 20 times that of V8 Fusion. Both are 100% fruit juice acai blends. It’s as close to an apples to apples comparision of two juice blends as you are going to get. In truth it should be comparing two equal cars one at $20K and one at $400K, but I actually was conservative with the $300K.
The hole in one is a very accurate analogy of it not mattering how hard people work. Here’s a guy who worked to the bone with ProvisionRX pitching it 1000 times in 3 months and he got nowhere. This is not exaggeration.
As for the saturation thing, did you read my article: MLM and the Reality of Saturation? If you did, you’d know that isn’t very smart to suggest that Monavie couldn’t be saturated if 9 out of 10 have never heard of it. There’s a lot of reasons why MonaVie can still be saturated, but I’ll give you an example. If you talked to 100 people on the street about being in any MLM many (I would say 95% or higher, but that’s my opinion, not scientific) would not be interested in it. For example, my wife had never heard of MonaVie, but it doesn’t matter whether she had or not, she’s not interested in a commissioned sales job. The addressable MonaVie market is limited by a number of factors like this even if people have never heard of it.
Here’s another one. Let’s say that I live in Utah, where there are many MLMs. MonaVie, and pretty much all MLMs are saturated there, because anyone who wanted to be in MLM is already in one. You’re not going to recruit anyone new. You also mentioned, “Success can be had in Monavie, as clearly people are succeeding. However, you need to overcome a heavy churn rate…” Ahh that churn rate. Once a person has been churned through in any MLM, they aren’t likely to join another… they’ve learned that MLM doesn’t work.
I listed a number of reasons why the MLM industry is already saturated in that article and it’s why USA Today says that MLM sales people find it hard to earn much. I imagine that Brig Hart had it easier to build his Amway business, because many people didn’t have easy access to information on it in the 90’s or before. However, now it’s a pretty quick good Google search until you come up with an article like this one, that explains in quite simple English the problems with any particular company. With more people having access to accurate information it is much, much harder to recruit people nowdays.
The FTC says that some MLMs aren’t legitimate and MonaVie fails the guidelines for being legitimate. Sure the IRS is going to allow tax write-offs. They allowed Bernie Madoff his too. It didn’t make it legitimate. Do you think the IRS is in the business of investigating every company to see if it is a pyramid scheme? Do you even know what the IRS does?
The IHOP owner’s story isn’t an accurate depiction of MLM. You were just saying that it was hard work. For example with MonaVie you said, “Monavie needs to be your passion and you need to work at it hard…” Now you are turning around and saying that this other MLM is easy and very part time work yields $50,000. If it were truly that easy everyone in the MLM would make $50,000, but show me that MLM’s income disclosure statement and I bet more than than 99.9% make less. I could probably throw a few more 9s in there, but in 1000 is a good starting point. And if that guy is only working “very part time”, then clearly it should be the norm for any full timer to be making at least 6 figures.
The residual income from the IHOP owner is a joke too. You mentioned the churn above. Those people have to be replaced. So that’s work, quite the headache. You also have to be prepared for the MLM to terminate your contract at any time (they can do that) and be prepared for the MLM company to change the terms in a way that could cut your income in half. Kelly Bangert of MonaVie said in a Xowii trial that he lost over half his income… and I belive he was a black diamond. It was no fault of his own.
Supply and demand are different beast in MLM. In most cases people are paying for the right to be in the MLM, not because they want the product. It’s why nearly every one of them require you be on autoship or sign up people to be on autoship to meet your own personal volume. In 6,000 comments I think you are the only one to admit that they pay for MonaVie and aren’t a distributor.
Sure in a tough economy one of the first things to go is the $5,000 yearly juice for a family of four. We agree there… and even MonaVie seems to admit it. However, again, the price of any MLM isn’t based on supply and demand for that product, it’s mixed in with the opportunity. People are willing to pay $45 for a bottle of juice, if they think it’s a business that will help them acheive their dreams as you have claimed. Is the value of a piece of paper worth $1? Not necessarily. However, if that peice of paper is a lottery ticket with a chance to win big money, it’s worth a dollar. The price of the paper went up a ton because of the perceived opportunity it represents. Note that the perceived opportunity shouldn’t be confused with real opportunity, because potential distributor’s perceptions are shaped on disinformation as we have seen here.
As for the list of things that you say are successful in MLM, you were particularly wrong about one of them. Here’s your list, “open minded, self-confidence, hard work, discipline.” You are wrong about the open-minded part. I was open-minded when I wrote my original article about MonaVie. My favorite baseball, the Red Sox, were endorsers. Sumner Redstone was a noted drinker. There seemed to be an independent study on it. However, all that was smoke and mirrors. The Red Sox endorsement was a paid advertisement. Sumner Redstone hasn’t said another thing about MonaVie since I wrote this article years ago. The “independent” study was done by the Alexander Struass, the guy who was MonaVie’s hired doctor and supplier of acai.
In fact over three years ago, I had to write an article about Being Open-Minded About MonaVie simply because so many MLM distributors are closed-minded about the product.
As for your spiel about Corporate America, it is worth noting that there is far more success than there is in MLM. As we’ve shown with MonaVie that break-even happens at recruiting 26 people if you do it exactly right (probably closer to 40 in the typical) scenario, it doesn’t work. Imagine everyone in the United States took your believe that being MLM distributor is the way to go. First, there would be no one to actually make the product, no software engineer to create the websites, no shippers to ship it, etc. Second, if we go with just 30 people needing to be recruited per person to break even, we’d have a nation of 10 million people breaking even and 290 million who are not making money. I know you don’t like binaries, but this math holds true for any MLM where you have to recruit more than one person to make money back. If I just had to recruit two people to break even, we’d have 100 million who broke even in their job and 200 million who didn’t.
The sad part is that the inanimate object at Wal-Mart does a better job of selling product than any MLM. And you really think that Corporate America is flawed? As a software engineer, I was a victim of the dot-com bust in 2001. There were almost no jobs to be had and I went from earning 6 figures to collecting unemployment checks. It wasn’t that Corporate America was flawed as a whole, it was a recession and business owners didn’t have the money to hire people. It happens sometimes.
A few years later when I got a job and got back on my feet, I started this website to help make sure that I’m not there ever again, as well as educate others how to avoid it. One of the best ways is for one not to spend $5,000 for juice for a family of four, because you believe in the business opportunity. That’s like buying a bunch of lottery tickets because you believe you’ll win.
There may be millions who feel MLM is legit, but for every one of those there are a hundred who feel it is not legit. Perhaps you should read this Reddit.com thread of a random sampling of people with no reason for bias for or against any MLM. There are hundreds of comments there saying that MonaVie and MLM are scams. There are few if even any (I haven’t found one yet) where anyone stands up and says that MLM is legit.
You asked “what caused you to latch onto MonaVie like a pitbull and not let go.” I give a link in the beginning how I got introduced to MonaVie. For the rest you are free to read the comments from the beginning, I give a link for that too. Assuming you don’t care to spend 20 hours doing that, the short version is this: A lot of awesome commenters exposed various parts of the MonaVie scam. Various MonaVie distributors would show up and make some ridiculous claim that it cured their cancer or that they were getting 13 servings of fruit, so they were actually saving money.
I didn’t say that I had no problem with Phillip Morris. Have you read my article: The Hidden Costs of Smoking? The thing with cigarettes, is that everyone knows it kills people. It’s right on the box. MonaVie doesn’t tell people it is a scam. It’s clearly not on the bottle. They certainly don’t go out of their way to write down on their website, that “MonaVie is a grossly overpriced product, with little nutritional value, wrapped in a poor business opportunity that appears to be illegal pyramid scheme, supported by nonsensical “scientific” studies and illegal medical claims.”
If they did that then I wouldn’t have to write this article to warn consumers.
John,
Thanks for the response. You said a couple things in your post that might have been lost in it’s length. You said “I did read it and I understand the math. It would be valid if we assumed that all these people were in Monavie to try to make money.” and “in part because of the sh*t binary system which is designed to make it appear like people are helping you, but in reality it makes success exponentially more difficult. ”
Would it be safe to say that we agree in the case of Monavie in particular, that the binary MLM model guarantees that 95% of those that participate must lose? That the only way for this not to be a mathematical certainty is via retail sales? That a system built on recruiting a downline, which recruits more downlines can never have even 5% profitable regardless of how hard they try, how much they believe in the product or which system they are plugged into?
As an advocate of MLM, do you agree this is the case with Monavie? If not, can you please show me how via building a downline it could ever result in anything less than 95% being cash flow negative?
@Cyberxion:
I’ll try to address the responses one by one and not be too long. My mistake was trying to respond to everything Lazyman says but he does some rather extensive writing.
1-One of the very difficult things about owning an MLM, I’d venture to guess, is not only controlling the sales force, but even knowing what is going on and who’s doing it. My perception of Monavie is that they do not claim any medical benefits. They do quote studies people have done on Acai, which isn’t the same thing. Furthermore, the FDA doesn’t regulate juices, whether it be Monavie, Organge juice, or apple juice.
2-One thing you keep saying, which is why I keep repeating myself, is that failure in an MLM is a mathematical certainty. You repeated THAT doesn’t make THAT true. One thing you need to understand is that math is not science. Math is math. What I mean by that is that once something occurs, it can no longer be said that it is a “mathematical certainty” that it will not happen. Therefore, if ONE person has succeeded in an MLM (let alone millions), to say mathematical certainty you’d fail is simply untrue no matter how many different ways you repeat it, and no matter how you try to spin it on me, and say that no matter how many times I repeat it it isn’t true.
So let me state it clearly: “TO SAY IT IS A MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY ONE WILL FAIL IN AN MLM IS 100% INCORRECT.” This is true even if ONLY ONE person in history ever succeeded in ANY MLM. Now, if you want to be accurate, you can say the odds are against you, there’s a 95% failure rate, etc, we can debate that and the reasons why etc etc etc….but unless something has a 100.00% failure rate, it can no longer be a mathematical certainty of failure.
You can say anyone looking to be their own boss would be mistaken to get into an MLM. If you are going to quit your job and get into an MLM and try to make it fly, I would absolutely agree with you, because although people have successfully done that, it definitely put the odds squarely against you. However, to start and MLM part time until it “replaces your income” has been done by literally millions of people. Those people would laugh at the propositions that you propose here, as do I. But again, there are many people that agree with you as well…so it’s all in your point of view.
I realize I write extensively, but it’s hard to explain the evils of MLM in 250 words. That’s why I have articles that go more in-depth.
MonaVie doesn’t publicly claim medical benefits, because Dallin Larsen’s last company Royal Tongan Limu got shut down by for that. Instead the get distributors to make those claims. This is effectively the same as if MonaVie made the claims themselves. It’s like the music sharing software companies… they didn’t share any music, but they were held liable for creating the system that facilitates massive illegal activity. You don’t see the illegal claims about Ocean Spray, so clearly the MLM distribution method is the problem and MonaVie is at fault until they fix it. If they can’t, they need to choose a new business model like Napster did.
It’s well known that the FDA doesn’t regulate juices, but if a juice is found to have any medical benefits, it can make the claim. MonaVie enjoys this with it’s Pulse product because it has plant sterols which the FDA has determined help lower cholesterol. Thus MonaVie can make that claim. If acai or any blends of MonaVie ingredients can do the same, MonaVie could claim that and make billions.
You have to make a distinction between FDA approval for medical conditions, which is what we talk about on this board, and FDA approval to sell any food. Obviously the first requires the extensive clinical tests that MonaVie doesn’t have. The second is something that Coca Cola passes with ease and isn’t a topic of debate.
2. I don’t think anyone has said, “IT IS A MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY ONE WILL FAIL IN AN MLM.” If you have interpreted that way, I am sorry, but I think you’ve read it wrong or we haven’t explained our point well. I would give you that point, because obviously I’ve talked about Brig Hart’s money in MLM.
What has been said is that “FAILURE IN MLM IS A MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY.” That is to say, there is no mathematical way for all to succeed, no matter how hard they try, how smart they are, or how much luck they have. And it isn’t just “all”, it is 96% in MonaVie if everyone builds their binary just perfect. That best-case scenario doesn’t happen and the realistic number is 99.54% losing money as reflected by their income disclosure statement.
This point of debate is about the failure that is built into MLM in general, not “IT IS A MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY ONE WILL FAIL IN AN MLM.”
I’m not sure if it was you, John, or someone else that mentioned it, but I’ve often compared it to being an NFL quarterback. With back-ups there are probably room for 80 jobs there. Obviously 80 people will be successful in being an NFL quarterback each season. We shouldn’t convince everyone to spend their time doing quarterback drills saying, if you put in enough effort you’ll get one of those 80 spots. It is simply a bad idea.
As for starting an MLM and doing it part time until it “replace your income”, that’s a similarly bad idea. Taking MonaVie as the example, we’ve noted that less than 1 in 100 will ever be able to reach that point realistically. During this time, they’ll be paying $5000 a year for a few ounces of juice per day for their family of 4. There’s no one outside of MLM that has that kind of juice budget. Even people who make $200,000 don’t typically spend $5,000 a year on a small amount of juice for their family.
@DTM:
If you remove the fact thing that 95% of people are mere drinkers, then yes.
Even if you don’t, the binary system monavie and many others use is a complete and utter crock of sh*t. Here’s why.
1-They tell you that it’s advantageous because people above you will stack people beneath you. This is deceptive for a number of reasons. First of all, that may not even be true if you are placed on an “inside leg.” What this means is not everyone gets the same chance which is TOTALLY unfair. Second of all, even if it is true, you still need to be qualified on that leg meaning you will have to place at least one person on that side. Also, they pay you on the leg with the least volume, so even if they do stack beneath you, your inside leg is what you need to build and get paid on. So many people end up with a ton of volume on one end that they don’t get paid on.
2-Binary essentially ends up making you “Help” those that don’t work. What does this mean? If you recruit Joe Schmoe into Monavie and he takes off, that will throw you out of balance, and you will need to put anyone you get on the side opposite him. So the guy you recruit that helps you move forward and you told you’d be putting people under now gets nothing because of his own success.
3-Success in a binary is exponentially more difficult that a traditional MLM because you need two working legs, not just one, and they need to be balanced. In a traditional MLM, your success comes from one person who finds one person who finds one person….In a binary that can happen and it all comes on the same side so you get nothing.
To put this in perspective, my sponsor, who was heavily into Monavie (where I wasn’t) joined my MLM and recruited me. He then promptly stopped working. However, I kept at it and have built a nice size organization – due to the a couple of serious partners I was able to find. My sponsor, who has done very little since, and has recruited NOONE outside of me, make a substantial residual income. This is not only unlikely in Monavie, it is in fact, impossible because you need to recruit at LEAST 2 people and as stated above, that will likely get you no where.
I am merely talking about the structure of the MLM here without regard to product.
This is just my opinion, but I feel that in an MLM, there should be 2 hard fast rules 1- everyone involved has an equal chance (clearly not the case in binary) and 2-you should only have to build it ONCE (not twice).
So, as an MLM PROPONENT, I would still say that anything utilizing a binary system completely sucks.
John Verrilli (July 24, 2012 at 12:59 pm)- it’s clear by your posts that you have not read the article, the links, nor the comments in this thread. If you had, then there would have been no need for you to post your 2 points, since everything you stated has been addressed (with citation) in other areas.
Item one – Monavie has no interest in controlling the sales force. Monavie themselves makes blatant exaggerations of medical/nutritional benefits in their advertising. Their distributors make blatant exaggerations of medical/nutritional benefits…often times using Monavie’s own marketing material. They attempt to dodge the legal aspects with a disclaimer at the bottom of their website, and a line item in a distributor contract, but they make no actual attempts to rein in the offenders. That’s because their distributors are their best(only) customers, so it’s against Monavie’s best interest to audit/punish.
Regarding the Acai studies, those are also irrelevant. In part because they were performed by a Monavie insider and in part because they weren’t peer reviewed. In addition, studies on the benefits of Acai are irrelevant when discussing Monavie when the company won’t disclose the amount of Acai in their juice. Acai is not equal to Monavie…Monavie is not equal to Acai.
All of these points have been covered repeatedly on this site.
Item two – Read the article. When you are done, read the article again. Let me state it clearly. “LAZYMAN DID NOT SAY ITS A MATHEMATICAL CERTAINTY ONE WILL FAIL IN MLM”. What he did say is that failure in MLM is not a measure of effort, but a measure of mathematical certainty. It’s tough to miss when that’s the ACTUAL TITLE of the article, but perhaps you were distracted. Bottom line…a distributor may be succeeding in an MLM, but their success is dependent on the failure of others. The business model is specifically designed with this in mind.
And, since you seem to be big on making claims that are true. Please show citations supporting your statement that ‘literally millions of people’ started part time in MLM and replaced their income. There are many here that would laugh at this claim, as do I.
John said “My perception of Monavie is that they do not claim any medical benefits.”
Corporate might not specifically say it, but how about Brig Hart parading illegal testimonials in this video (Brig starts at 3:00 into the video). Claims of treating blood pressure (3:24), weight loss (3:27), treating phybromyalgia (3:35), arthritis (3:49), diabetes (4:31), cholesterol (4:36),insomnia (4:58), stroke (5:09), Bells palsey (5:22), cancer (5:46)etc. etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvgw_jceqZg
Or this video where a Monavie diamond filmed a convicted rapist dressed like a doctor who claimed he was an end stage cancer specialist and suggest monavie contributed to him never losing a patient.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGgZVknm3kY
In addition to being a fixed opportunity that most never see the deck stacked against them, it is made far worse by products with made up medical claims. The danger is that someone might actually believe them!
I had to come back to address one thing. John said “One thing you need to understand is that math is not science. ” Really, are you just a Poe? You need to understand that math is more precise than science. Science provides explainations, math is facts, provable never changing facts.
If I have 100 scratch off lottery tickets and only 5 are winners, it is a mathematical certainty than 95% are losers even though there are the 5 winners. Of course I could sell you tapes and books on how to be a successful lottery scratcher and have you attend seminars on the power of positive thinking in your scratching technique. I could preach that the only ones who don’t scratch winners are the ones that didn’t use my proven scratching system and gave up. The fact is that everyone can’t win, it’s a predetermined mathematical certainty and it’s preying on the gullibility of unwitting dupes to tell them that they all can win.
DTM
What you iterated about math was exactly my point, Edgar Allan…I’m a math guy.
Not much else to say…too many responses which I have neither the time nor the desire to address. We disagree in principal on MLMs and I don’t expect that to change (it won’t change on my part that’s for sure, I’ll just keep cashing the checks as long as they keep coming.)
Good luck with whatever you do and good luck to the rest of you.
-John
@ John Verrilli
1. John, it’s never accemptable to just guess. Not when the information is readily available. I’m not trying to to be snide, sir, it’s just that a cursory glance at Monavie’s own website would have informed you that they do in fact make claims about the medical benefits of their various products, and do so in spite of having no credible research with which to back them up.
Now, of course the company doesn’t make quite the same claims on its webpage that its distributors have made, but neither do they seem all that interested in stopping its distributors from making them. Though it’s written in its distributor guidelines that any representative caught making illegal health claims about the product may have his or her distributorship revoked, the company doesn’t actually enforce this policy. The policy is written to simply suggest the illusion that the company actively polices its distributor activity, but they do not. In fact the article to which your posting has examples of how Monavie doesn’t even enforce its policies after after being directly informed of violations and provided with hard proof of them.
Now, Dallin Larsen has gone on record as saying that trying to manage his distributor’s claims would be like trying to herd cats, but the problem is he didn’t even bother to try. Not even after seeing the last MLM that he was involved in as its vice-president (Dynamic Essentials) get shut down by the FDA due to the illegal claims that both the company and its sales-force made about its product, Royal Tongan Limu. After that failure, Larsen, who is apparently the world’s most inept businessman, founded Monavie without putting even the simplest of measures in place to protect it from meeting with the same fate. Larsen learned nothing from his time at Dynamic Essentials. Or, and this is of course just conjecture, he doesn’t actually care about taking any measures to regulate his distributor’s claims because they are beneficial to his business, and he doesn’t care about the potential consequences of allowing those claims to continue to be made unchecked because he can simply start up another MLM should the FDA shut Monavie down, just as he started Monavie itself after it shut down Dynamic Essentials.
Now with that aside, John, I think you’ll recall that I did in fact find the disclaimer on Monavie’s website. It was buried in an unintuitive place and displayed in small-print, but it was there just the same. Now, given the potentially harmful effect that such a disclaimer may have on a consumer’s perception of the product, why would Monavie put it anywhere at all if they’re not required to, John? I’ll tell you why. It’s because Monavie is being sold as a supplement, and the FDA requires that all supplements sport that disclaimer, both in advertising and on the product itself. Again, this is something that you would have been informed about with just a little preparation prior to responding.
As for why it’s there as opposed to the bottle, I would imagine being tucked away on the website where you’d have to be actively searching for it to find it, and having been written in print so small that you’d need to use a magnifying glass to read it, it stands to do less harm than it would on the label. The FDA also requlates the size of the disclaimer relative to the rest of the print on the bottle, so Monavie couldn’t hide it like they’ve practically done on the website. Instead they chose to leave it off altogether, a blatant violation of FDA regulation that I think has a lot to say about the company’s integrity, or lack thereof.
2. John, what we’re saying is that it’s not mathetmatically possible for everyone involved in an MLM to make money like you appear to be claiming it is. Instead of discussing the reality of the Monavie business-model, you’ve gone as far as to suggest that we’re the killers of dreams by warning our readers away from getting involved with the company.
Which, might I remind you, is the particular focus of this article and its accompanying discussion. If you want to discuss the MLM business-model at large, and you certainly appear to be interested in doing so, then you should probably respect Lazy’s repeated request that you take the discussion to the appropriate page.
silo-
As requested:
http://www.matthewharris.net/network-marketing/130-a-million-a-month-top-25-network-marketing-earners
http://www.whyjoinus.com/top_400_earners.pdf
The second one must be a Monavie source because they are all highlighted. I simply googled it and posted it here. Personally, I don’t like the second one because whoever put it together needs to put a header on it with the period covered.
That’s not the point. My point is, looking at this list, remember that this is top income earners per MONTH. They are the one’s that are in the news, get all the trips, etc etc.
But how many people are making $50,000 or $100,000 a year (on a part time basis) in MLMs. There is no way to know for sure (if you know I myself would like that information), but I believe that’s a large number. Such people “only” making $100,000 a year will never win any trips. They won’t be top income earners. You will never see their names listed on a top earners list or on the internet.
Excel Communications made over 1,000 millionaires in a short period of time. Yes, the company eventually died because long distance became free, but so what? If you capitalized on the deregulation of telecom you made your money while it was there.
Keep laughing….but there are thousands and thousands if not millions of people making great money in MLMs.
You and the rest here don’t care, and that’s fine. You are employees. There’s nothing wrong with that either. I am an employee as well. I just chose to be diversified in my earnings. Not everyone wants that.
I am not going to convince anyone here, and I won’t be convinced out of MLMs. That said, I don’t mind healthy discussion.
I feel this site is misguided, and furthermore, a waste of time if it’s not just for discussion, because I don’t believe it’s going to sway one person in either direction. People have their beliefs and we can’t post whatever we want here. It’s not going to change anyone.
Silo said, “Please show citations supporting your statement that ‘literally millions of people’ started part time in MLM and replaced their income.” You responded with a list of the top 25 and top 400 earners in MLM. By my math (and you are a math guy, right), we are missing about 999,600 people to get to one million and 1,999,600 to get to the “literally millions” of people.
There’s no argument about these 400 people. However, the Direct Selling Association says that there are 15 million people in MLM in the United States. This argument is like one making a claim that there are millions of people who are millionaires in lottery and then showing us the 25 or so in the last year or two. Putting this information up doesn’t help provide proof of your claim as Silo requested.
You are right that there’s no way to know the number of people making $50,000 to $100,000 a year (on any time basis) in MLM. That’s one of the reasons why your claim about there being literally millions of them replacing their income is MLM is unsubstantiated.
One things we could do is look at the MonaVie IDS at its height of success in 2009 and extrapolate from there. They had 763 people making an average annualized check of $53,000 or more. Going to your list of 400 top earners, we find that MonaVie represents 88 of the 400 names or 22% of the top MLM earners. If we presume that this is indicative of the industry (MonaVie earners representing 22%) then we can figure out that there are around 3468 people in MLM who earn $53,000 (because 22% of 3468 is the 763 that we see in MonaVie). That 3468 is very short of ‘literally millions.’ I’m not saying this is an exact calculation, but it’s a reasonable estimation giving the information that we have available.
It’s also worth noting that this is just one snapshot. If you were to take a long view like 5 years, you’d see that the top earners would repeat year after year. Brig Hart is going to be up there every month for the last five years for example. However, in that time, due to churn at the bottom from the people who aren’t making money, you have 75 million total people in MLM in that time. (Churn rate assumed to be 50% in this calculation from the information at Understanding Churn Rate in MLM).
You’ve mentioned that Excel Communications made over 1,000 millionaires a couple of times now, but I have not seen any proof of that. Even if true, we’d go back to the millions of people it inflicted losses on for those people at the top.
Again you keep claiming that the people here are the employees. I’ve shown that at least in my case it isn’t the case. When you say such things, you’ve missed the entire point of this website and the nearly 1500 articles I have written.
Lazy man,
I have no problem discussing things, but for a smart guy sometimes you say things that are so stupid. You are a programmer (if I have it right) in the IT field asking and Accountant if he knows what the IRS. I’m not really going to continue on and dignify that stupid question with a response, I will just move on and assume that once again, your overzealous nature and the heat of the moment got to you. I don’t agree with your take on MLMs, and that’s fine, but again I’ll say that I think the other materials you have are excellent. So you have to be pretty smart.
Another thing you do is you keep misrepresenting what I say. You pointed out that this was a site to discuss Monavie (which I am NOT involved in, do NOT want to discuss, and could care less if they are gone tomorrow), so I apologized and told you that I tried to post on one of your other sites and it wouldn’t let me…so I said my goodbyes and wished everyone luck. What did you do? You responded by saying that I was insinuating that MLM Myth wouldn’t allow posts when it does, only site (A) and (B) of yours (don’t remember their names and I’m not going to look back for it). I never said that, I said one of your other sites. So then you say, oh, if it was someone else’s site, I don’t care about it, I only monitor my sites here. YES, it was one of your sites I just don’t remember which one. Whatever the case, you pointed something out and I tried to apologize for my error and move on, but instead of letting that end you make up stuff and twist it all around.
Another point, you accuse Monavie of being deceptive yet you do the same thing. You mention mind control and then when I question you about it (because I was intrigued and wondered if that really existed), you say “oh, I just meant the cuttoff off of friends and family”, etc and whatever else you said. Ok that’s fine, then don’t say mind control because that indicates something that doesn’t exist to my knowledge outside of X-men.
On that topic, you say that I subscribe to the friends and family cutoff off “mind control” schemes. For one, they don’t exist and for another, the things you refer to such as not hanging out with negative and cynical people etc are NOT mlm specific, they are principles of success people have written about that MLMs have taken and used. There are many books I’ve read that say you should hang out with wealthy people and do what they do to become wealthy – and not to hang out with negative people, complainers, etc because you will become what you associate with. That has nothing to do with MLMs, they have just decided to take up the “positive mantra” because you need to be positive, self confident and hard working to succeed in an MLM, although you claim that none of that matters – which is fine, but that belief doesn’t correlate with the many thousands (and probably millions) that have succeeded at MLMs (they were all just lucky I guess).
We can go round and round if you want (hopefully not) because sooner or later (hopefully sooner) I will be gone, never to return. It serves me no purpose to be on a site of MLM haters and non believers when I believe in the structure. It also serves you no purpose to try to convince me of your beliefs because I am not open to that idea.
Apparently, what you are focused on is mostly small, you’ve never heard of them, bullshit MLMs and if that’s the case, that’s fine. I don’t think Avon, Amwyay, or Herbalife engage in the friend/family thing you are referring to. If they are, I really don’t care either because I’m not involved in those companies either, and also, within every company there are bad people, MLM or not. You mentioned Wal-mart (which I feel is a great company as well) but they are currently involved in some labor scandals involving sweatshop labor and illegal immigrants, are they not (this is really old news).
The things that I’ve said regarding certain idiot family and friends I have are that they have to bash me and or my opportunity. I have no problem if you (as a friend or family member) are either too closed minded to look at my opportunity or looked at it and aren’t interested. That’s totally fine. But to try to ridicule me, or bash me, or try to shame me out of doing it because you’re a zero is totally uncalled for. Just say no thanks and move on. Thankfully, the number of people in my life that do that are few and far between, but if you are in an MLM the reality is some friends and family members (small percentage) will try to bash you out of doing the business.
If you choose to dedicate you resources to this quest, good luck to you but I personally feel that you are like a voice shouting in the wilderness… and while you do have supporters here, they are stuck out in the wilderness with you. Noone’s listening if they are in MLMs. You aren’t going to get rid of MLMs – they will only increase.
Let me leave you with this. If they are so bad, why are conventional companies trying to model them? Go on Staples.com, or look at Otterbox’s website. They have affiliate programs where you can refer and be paid a commission. How many other companies are doing this? (I don’t know the answer to that, it’s rhetorical – those two are ones I happened to notice). Other companies like Directv I believe are offering free service or credit towards your monthly bill for referrals.
Unfortunately for you, with the sad shape Corporate America is in, I think Direct Sales and MLMs are not going away, contrary to your hopes, I think they are going to increase.
Finally, I find it very interesting that you yourself have had your problems with Corporate America, and have taken steps not to rely on a “job” yet you try to dissuade others from doing so by bashing MLMs, and worse yet, you SUPPORT Corporate America! You are totally fine with working your ass off and then being fired one day with no notice, with no cause, because some billion dollar company missed their quarterly EPS number by a penny. To me it’s just criminal. Yea, there are people that have written books on why MLMs are bad business (that’s their opinion), but for everyone one of them there’s probably 10 that written the proponents of MLMs.
Anyway, let’s try to part amicable dissenters (I have tried many times), and outside of a few casual know nothing jackasses that call me a snake from their computer in their mom’s basement when they don’t even know me, I’ve had what I feel are a few healthy discussions with a few people here who I have respect for, although I disagree with them (I believe that’s possible).
Good luck to everyone here that was positive, and given the fact that you aren’t in MLMs, I sincerely hope you have a secure job that pays you well.
I will say it again, I think your sites have some great stuff, so if you are like me and believe in MLMs, and you happen to be reading this, don’t discard the rest of the sites with the MLM bashing. There’s a lot of good stuff to be had here.
Regards,
John
John said, “You are a programmer (if I have it right) in the IT field asking and Accountant if he knows what the IRS. I’m not really going to continue on and dignify that stupid question with a response, I will just move on and assume that once again, your overzealous nature and the heat of the moment got to you.”
Let’s review this. You claimed that your business is legitimate and not illegal because the IRS allows you take tax deductions. I pointed out that Bernie Madoff made tax deductions that the IRS accepted as well. You can continue with your argument from authority, but logically you are very wrong. Since you are an IRS expert perhaps you can show where the IRS claims that they inspect every business for legitimacy before allowing a tax deduction like you have suggested. Please don’t respond that this is stupid or that I’m being overzealous… I’m simply trying to educate people on the IRS and you seem to have a different opinion of it.
I only brought up the MLM Myth taking comments, because I was concerned about a potential error on the site. I was trying to understand what was going on, but since you don’t know what site you were on, you aren’t going to be able to help debug any potential error or confirm it is working again. I was hoping you’d go back to MLM Myth and please leave any general comments about MLM at the respective articles there. For example the one on saturation is a better place to discuss saturation. For the most part, we’ve been able to tie the conversation back to MonaVie, so I don’t mind it too much.
Here is Wikipedia’s entry on mind control. It isn’t X-man stuff. It is the cult stuff that you saw in Jonestown that I linked to. Part of that is separating people from their friends and family due to their “negativity.” The topic of cults is widely discussed on that mind control entry. There are books written about MLM and cults. See: the Cult of Free Enterprise about Amway. You may also note this entry on cult-expert Steve Hassan’s website Freedom of Mind.
I was not deceptive about the mind control stuff.
I’ve written about being positive on my list of how to be successful. I know what you mean about not hanging out with negative people. However, you fail to recognize that those who warn people about the dangers of MLM are being positive influences in helping to protect people from being scammed. If a person were a cigarrette salesman trying to recruit others into selling and smoking cigarrettes, I would try to warn others not to get involved in it. That cigarrette salesman would try to distance me from influencing the potential client by calling me negative. Hopefully, with this analogy you can see that educating a person about a bad business opportunity is positive.
Finally, if a company or person only listens to the positive aspects of themselves or their business, they will miss important opportunities for improvement.
John said, “It serves me no purpose to be on a site of MLM haters and non believers when I believe in the structure.”
This is an unusual statement coming from the information that we have about the limited number of people who can succeed given that structure. For someone who claims to be a numbers guy, there shouldn’t be much of a question about belief in the structure. Math and belief don’t exactly go hand and hand.
John said,
“Apparently, what you are focused on is mostly small, you’ve never heard of them, bullsh*t MLMs and if that’s the case, that’s fine. I don’t think Avon, Amwyay, or Herbalife engage in the friend/family thing you are referring to.”
See the book above (Cult of Free Enterprise) about Amway from a top insider. They are one of the their worst of mind controls with their books and tapes. Another good book is Merchants of Deception, also written by a top Amway distributor. Your list of top 400 shows that MonaVie is not a small BS MLM and it’s clearly happening there. I have only begun to look at HerbaLife, but given that they’ve admitted that they don’t know whether they are pyramid scheme, I think we can put them into the BS MLM category.
John said, “If they are, I really don’t care either because I’m not involved in those companies either, and also, within every company there are bad people, MLM or not. You mentioned Wal-mart (which I feel is a great company as well) but they are currently involved in some labor scandals involving sweatshop labor and illegal immigrants, are they not (this is really old news).”
There are certainly some bad people in everything. However, if you were work with Habitat for Humanity, you’d find that almost all of them are good. If you were in a maximum security prison, you might find the opposite. We can’t suggest the two are the same just because “there are bad people in every company.” This minimizes the deception in the industry. You yourself suggested that you won’t want anyone on your team who mentions pyramid schemes, when that is simply someone who is educated about what the FTC says about some MLMs. You only want to work with people who are not informed and that is very deceptive. If you were a good person in MLM, you’d walk people through pyramid schemes and MLM and show how your MLM isn’t an illegal pyramid scheme. I have never heard of anyone doing this… or even anyone being able to make this case for any MLM.
Wal-Mart has never recruited me to be in their business opportunity. I and millions and millions of others buy a good product at a reasonable price and are not being scammed by Wal-Mart. If you want to go into labor scandals, that’s an entirely different topic. Apple has those as well. If fact, I bet someone could look at the labor of some companies that manufacture for MLMs and find the same issues. You would be confusing the development of product (the labor side) with the distribution of product (the MLM side).
The people who are trying to bash you about your business opportunity probably see that you are spreading a scam. It is like the cigarrette salesman recruiting other cigarrette salesmen. If I person were to just say no thank you and move on, it would be doing society a great disservice. The hope is to show you that it isn’t just me, but consumer websites consider it obvious that MLM is a scam. I’m hopeful that you might be able to overcome your congitive dissonance and see what everyone else sees.
John said, “If you choose to dedicate you resources to this quest, good luck to you but I personally feel that you are like a voice shouting in the wilderness… and while you do have supporters here, they are stuck out in the wilderness with you. Noone’s listening if they are in MLMs. You aren’t going to get rid of MLMs – they will only increase.”
Yes, those in MLMs are already likely brainwashed to the point where they are a lost cause with this. The hope is to help people before they’ve become brainwashed by giving them the necessary information before they get sucked in. I get many, many letters from people thanking me for this information and many, many people say that hey wish they had this article in 2006 and 2007 when they got involved in MonaVie. Why? Because they were given the disinformation like Brig Hart’s presentation involving the illegal health claims. Now if someone sees this presentation and tries to learn more, they read this article and realize that it was a scam.
Please don’t confuse affiliate programs with MLMs… they are not similar. There are literally thousands of companies that have affiliate programs. I use affiliate programs on this website. There is no purchase requirement to be a member of an affiliate program. There is no overpriced product at Staples. There is no multi-level in affiliate programs. If every MLM went to an affiliate model, it would solve the problem of the pyramid scheme. Each person would be compensated directly for product sales, not for recruiting and selling product to those who have been recruited.
As the FTC says: “Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. Some are pyramid schemes. It’s best not to get involved in plans where the money you make is based primarily on the number of distributors you recruit and your sales to them, rather than on your sales to people outside the plan who intend to use the products.”
In affiliate programs nearly 100% of the product sold it to people outside of the program and no money is paid for recruiting others into that affiliate program.
John said, “Unfortunately for you, with the sad shape Corporate America is in, I think Direct Sales and MLMs are not going away, contrary to your hopes, I think they are going to increase.”
Actually this one of the things that will cause the end of MLMs. People are getting into them now and learning first hand the scam that it is. This means that they are going to churn people quicker than they would in a good economy. In addition, there is more information about MLMs out there today and people have better access to it today than 10 years ago.
Don’t confuse Direct Sales and MLM: MLM vs. Network Marketing vs. Direct Selling
John said, “Finally, I find it very interesting that you yourself have had your problems with Corporate America, and have taken steps not to rely on a ‘job’ yet you try to dissuade others from doing so by bashing MLMs, and worse yet, you SUPPORT Corporate America! You are totally fine with working your ass off and then being fired one day with no notice, with no cause, because some billion dollar company missed their quarterly EPS number by a penny. To me it’s just criminal. Yea, there are people that have written books on why MLMs are bad business (that’s their opinion), but for everyone one of them there’s probably 10 that written the proponents of MLMs.”
You are confusing MLM with a legitimate way to not rely on a job. Being in MLM is a job… you’ve mentioned before how much hard work it is. You are totally against getting fired by Corporate America, when you can get fired by an MLM company at any time… it’s written into just about every single one’s policies and procedures. Sometimes the MLM will go out of business as it did Dallin Larsen’s previous company Royal Tongan Limu juice. It’s no more secure than Corporate America. In fact, it is less secure, because you have not built up any skills on your resume that translate to any other career in Corporate America. If I work for Google as a software engineer and get fired, I can apply to Oracle, Facebook, Yahoo, etc. Also people will respect my resume a lot more with the “software engineer for Google” than they would, “Juice Salesman for MonaVie.”
I’m not against people starting businesses, but start smart ones, not bad ones. You are making the mistake of grouping any attempt to escape Corporate America a positive step. It simply isn’t true.
You know that MonaVie has had at least 5 rounds of layoffs at their headquarters right? These people were fired because MonaVie missed their numbers too.
Finally there are many more than 100 million jobs that can replace your salary in Corporate America and we’ve found there are around 3500 in MLM.
The reason why there are 10 times more books written by proponents of MLMs is because they are biased and make money in MLM. MLM only works by bringing people in and that’s what the books do.
au contraire @John Verrili.
Many people have come to this and the protandim page praising @LM and others for the help and warnings placed.
The words placed here really have changed many people’s minds which is completely at odds with your “mathematical” exact statement. Trawl back through the comments and you’ll find them.
Now, since I’m in a pedantic mind following my long break from my paid job, I’d like to point out that the “F” in FDA stands for Food and thus fruit juices will most certainly come under the checking and approval remit of the organisation since it’s part of it’s job to ensure safe foodstuffs are provided to people. At least here in the UK a similar state of affairs exists and I’m right in thinking that this is the case in the USA as that’s what the FDA say on their homepage.
Obviously, the checks and approval process will not be as onerous as that for drugs, but they will be there, so to say, as has been said several times recently, that foods aren’t under the FDA radar is false.
Essentially, a product must do what it says on the tin. And if there’s a chance it’ll harm you, it should say so.
As for MLM. Avon has been going for half a century. So what? The MLMs under scrutiny here are ones that pop up like whack-a-mole with the same few heads at the top, ne-er-do-wells sitting on the edge of the law while amassing money at other’s expense.
The lists you’ve provided only highlight the flitting nature of these scum. As has already been pointed out to you, Brig Hart and others do not earn their money by selling fruit juice – they get it because they’ve been paid to leave (and thus poached from) other MLMs, dragging their own downlines along with them. Court cases show this plainly.
So much for work hard and belief in a product….? All the downlines, previously touting “whatever” as some universal panacea to all ills (UPTAI), now suddenly switch to another UPTAI. LazyMan has pointed this out as his reason for starting the protandim series of articles….The guy in question went from monavie, to coin collecting to protandim in 3 weeks!
Thus it’s plain (using Avon as an example) that it’s not MLMs that are the problem. It’s the people doing it. Avon has survived a long time, but the high proportion of scam and failed MLMs from the whole shows the business model to be seriously flawed by the bloodsucking wide boys it attracts, using it before hopping off just as the shit starts to fly. Just look at former golden boys herbalife…. And examine closely Larsen’s history. It’s nothing to do with binary or working hard or following the plans or whatever and everything to do with scum like him and Hart. Their actions and wholesale lack of honesty leave no room in the debate about their personal ethics and if their was a method to keep them from trading for good it should be used.
But their isn’t, so we’re stuck with honest guys like Lazyman striving to protect the consumer using reasoned argument and debate while others like you undermine it against the common good.
As Lazyman has pointed out, his is not a one man crusade consumer website. This aspect is a sideline to his wider focus on saving people money and having an easier life. But still, the amount of time and effort he and others have put into keeping this going makes it sometimes seem that way.
In a war, most people work for the common good of their nation. Lazyman and others are in a similar war against the snake oil salesmen who poison our world. So heads up to him and them.
Quick correction Strangely,
The guy, Chris Blair, had bought an email list of people who were supposedly in MonaVie and spammed the list about Numis, his coin collection MLM. He didn’t consider that the email list was not his own and thus he could have been brought up on spam charges. So to the best of my knowledge he was just going from Numis to Protandim. More details here.
Also, I’m not ready to let Avon off the hook. In the last few years, it is looking like they’ve become a problem too.
Woo. I should’ve read the intro through before posting, so sorry. The principle holds true though that MLM-ers switch & skip like the wind which questions any claims they make about product b after saying the same things about product a…
That Avon article is interesting.
Lazyman,
You are doing it again. Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying you are stupid and overzealous. I am saying that comment could be a product of a heat of the moment thing based on your passion for what you do. If I thought you were stupid I wouldn’t even respond. I don’t claim to be an expert on the IRS or anything else for that matter, but as you might imagine, as both a former Controller, and a person who does their own taxes, I have dealt with the IRS on both a business and personal level. Let me add that the IRS is a lot more reasonable to deal with than most people would imagine, and I actually helped a co-worker deal with them. Thankfully that went ok because he took my advice – which is be open and honest, and communicate with the IRS.
As far as my opportunity, for one, you don’t even know what it is unless you looked me up which you are more than free to do, so it’s odd that you could say the few idiots in my life that want to bash me (notice how you changed my inference to make it like I said all of my friends and family, which certainly is not the case, most of them have been supportive) bash me because “i’m spreading a scam.” Let me inform you, I do not do anything I do not believe is good for the people I am serving – MLM or not. As a matter of fact, when I was looking for a job in the mid 1990’s I turned down a job offer from Phillip Morris (would not even go on the interview) because of their product. Furthermore, one of these idiots (and i reserve that term for very few people) also bashed me for buying a taxi medallion saying “it was a waste of money” meanwhile it is the best performing asset since 1929. Of course less than 5 years later after significant appreciation, this person recently came back with “I should have done that with you, but who knew?” Well, I kinda did, although I admit I never thought it would skyrocket as quickly as it did. Similarly, the extreme few who chose to bash me now are either very quiet or have joined because they understand the magnitude of the opportunity and also, the success of not only myself but the company as well.
I would like to read the article on Avon but I am having trouble finding it.
You should not have worried about the site or a glitch as I freely admitted my error and apologized. I’m sure I simply was on one of your site you mentioned which did not allow posting. It was not MLM myth, and furthermore, I cannot “go back” to MLM myth because I never posted there.
I don’t agree with your take on Herbalife or David Einhorn (if I spelled his last name wrong), nor do I think Herbalife is a pyramid scheme. I think people confuse pyramid schemes with Bernie Madoff, and anyone at the company that would say that, if it is indeed true, is shocking to me. I know Herbalife to be an incredible company of mammoth size listed on the NYSE. I say this as neither a distributor nor a product consumer, although if someone approached me with the products I might be inclined to try some.
You have chosen this to be your mantle and I respect it, but I don’t think we will ever see the end of MLMs.
I tried to leave posting here because of a) my error, and b) I am not contributing to your sites goal, so why be here? Maybe you need dissenters here, but you have over 6,000 commenters here so surely you don’t need me for that.
I hope the people advertising on your site are paying you…..
I do agree that not all MLMs are legitimate. Definitely not. There are pyramid schemes out there.
I am anxious to get your take on Zeekrewards (I saw your review coming up). A friend recently approached me with it. I declined to get involved because I don’t personally believe I can be in 2 MLM’s and be effective…among other reasons, but mainly I am committed to my opportunity and don’t really want to do anything else (like you said, it is work like anything else – although I disagree with your assessment that it’s a job).
Do you have a site/message board that discusses bank fees? Because if so, I’d be more than willing to move over to that one and contribute there. I think I’d be a better fit there.
Regards,
John
John,
You said “What you iterated about math was exactly my point….We disagree in principal on MLMs and I don’t expect that to change (it won’t change on my part that’s for sure, I’ll just keep cashing the checks as long as they keep coming.)”
I’m confused by this. So we agree on the facts of the math, but we disagree in principle? If we agree 95% must fail, what exactly is the principle upon which we disagree? Is your principle that it is ok to tell everyone that they can succeed if they work hard enough even though it is a lie?
You also stated that we are not willing to change our opinion and neither are you. In fact, I am willing to hear an oppossing arguement as to how 95%+ can’t fail, I specifically asked you to demonstrate it. I would be glad to find out I have been incorrect if it is the truth. But when someone is unwilling to examine the opposite side and accept the possibility that they are wrong is when there is a problem. Stating that you won’t change as long as the checks keep coming is morally reprehensible.
John Verrilli says:
I’m sure that everyone involved in Dynamic Essentials felt secure. Y’know, at least right up until the whole operation was shut down by the FDA. Oh crap! So much for security in multi-level marketing, eh, John?
On the matter of pay, I could be making minimum-wage working at a fast-food joint flipping burgers 40 hours a week and I’d be making more money per paycheck than I could stand to make in the same amount of time and with a whole lot more effort in an MLM. Hell, I could find a dime on the sidewalk on my trip to the mailbox and I’d be better off. Oh, the most important thing is that regardless of what I do for a living, I won’t have payed to have the job, and every paycheck I get for doing it is mine to keep. I don’t have to pay for product that I’ll never sell, or marketing materials I don’t want. That’s a good thing, John.
Anyway, this isn’t the first time that I’ve been left with the impression after reading a post of yours that you’re being intentionally obtuse. So I gotta ask, John, why are you here? Up until now you’ve pretended to be interested in giving folks the…”truth” about the business-model vis-á-vis your alleged success in whatever heretofore unnamed MLM that you’re supposedly invovled in, but considering your contributions to-date, I’m just not buying it. So John, why are you REALLY here?
Actually, wait. You don’t need to answer that, John. Your Linkdin profile makes it clear that you’re involved in an MLM by the name of Ambit Energy. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that you’re here because you’re scared that people might read this site and think twice about getting involved in MLM at large, and yours by extension. That would certainly explain why you’ve repeatedly attempted to appeal to people’s desire to be wealthy and self-employed even after Lazy has thoroughly laid out the reality of the business-model to you. You’re desperately hoping to destract folks from it, which incidentally, my preliminary research into the company suggests that Ambit doesn’t deviate from even a little bit.
I’m guessing that’s why you’ve refrained from mentioning it by name, am I right, John? Didn’t want us poking around? We’re going to do that now, you understand that, right? And if we determine that Ambit is a scam and/or that the business model is faulty, we’re going to warn folks away from it too. Maybe the lesson here is that you really need to learn to recognize when it’s prudent to keep your mouth shut and leave well-enough alone.
Disregard. Got and read the Avon article. Also want to read the MLM vs Direct sales vs Network Marketing article you posted. I view these as all the same – perhaps incorrectly. Admittedly I never really g
@ Strangely:
2 quick comments: 1- What you said about MLMs not being the problem, it’s the people doing them is one point I agree with. I’ve made that point saying that there’s good and bad in every company. MLMs are no exception. I would like to add that the product or service is also important. Furthermore I noted to lazyman that it seems (and he corroborated) that he is addressing mostly fly by night, wack a box I think were his words..mlms whereas I only support the stallworts like Amway, Herbalife, Avon, etc. While Lazyman doesn’t condone those either and wants the end of all MLMs, my impression is that he is not trying to actively destroy them like he is Monavie and some other smaller I’ve never heard of them MLMs.
2-Once again, we have someone who does not know me, doesn’t know what I do, making uninformed and incorrect comments to attack me, from a computer in your mom’s basement, albeit a basement in the UK, using a fake name.
Once again I will state, I use my real name, and you can look me up anytime on linkedin. you can review both my various careers and you can contact any of my references (since self praise stinks) and you can ask them what they think of me and what I’ve done for people. Furthermore, I will gladly compare resumes with you or anyone here.
If you want to make comments fine. If you want to disagree with me, I respect that, and you likewise should respect the fact that I have the right to disagree with you.
Thank you,
John
Cyberexion:
This is the type of overzealous, stupid, comment I refer to.
Note the following for anyone reading that last, completely assinine rant:
1-I have said several time’s I posted here (rather than on MLM myth) due to my error, and my post was to just say that I disagreed with this site’s take on MLMs. I have since tried to leave but people keep directing questions which I try to answer and have an intelligent discussion.
2-Good job finding my linked profile genius. I have mentioned I have a linkedin profile at least twice detective, and also noted my real name is used here, and invited people to look at it. Then like a coward and an idiot, you accuse me of being afraid, realize you use a fake name. Where’s your linked profile? What’s your real name. COWARD?
3-I didn’t mention my MLM because it wasnt a topic of discussion. I furthermore stated that I don’t generally do business on the internet, I do it person to person. Again, if I did, I also went on to say that if I did, I wouldn’t try to do business on a site of MLM haters site.
Face it coward, someone could literally come up with a cure all given away for free, and as long as it was attached to an MLM, you’d bash it. So I could care less what you say or “find” about Ambit Energy. Dig away. Waste some more time.
See, even when I try to move on, and wish people well (read my quote you quoted – that was sincere you jackass) I still get bashed here and it gets turned on and manipulated into something it’s not.
That was a rabid, nonsensical post you made on a whole number of levels.
DTM:
My point was that math is not science and you simply mirrored that and threw it back at me.
We disagree in principle because I believe MLMs are a valid business model and you don’t.
I do agree with the failure rate I just don’t agree with the reasons and causes in legitimate MLMs (which I believe exist and you don’t).
My math statement was made to refute “Mathematical certainty of failure” when many many people have succeeded. That has since been explained to mean that a certain large number of people will fail while others succeed which is quite different.
The statement that I believe MLMs are legitimate (along with millions of others) doesn’t make me morally reprehensible. Again, people on the site display an inability to have an intelligent conversation without hurling insults or questioning morality.
John, your pom-pom waving fanaticism about MLM has now transitioned into pointless opinionated blathering and unwarranted attacks on the other participants. You’ve brought NOTHING to the table expect for a few personal unverifiable anecdotes (e.g., about the checks you allegedly have been cashing) and a bunch of other really shitty non-evidence that doesn’t help your case one iota.
Lazyman haspresented reams of evidence showing that the numerous MLMs he’s looked into are fundamentally flawed and crooked at their core, and he’s done it with crystal clear logic — yet you still persist in playing a transparently dishonest game of cat-and-mouse.
First of all, I would have expected that after the first 20 or so times Lazyman mentioned it, you’d take the not so subtle hint and either get on topic (Monavie) or else post your general blather about MLM at the appropriate venue. That you have still refused to do either of these things tells me that you’re either being purposely disruptive or are staggeringly obtuse (in all likelihood both).
In contrast with the excellent evidence from numerous credible sources which Lazyman has put forth, and his clear-sighted arguments, you’ve brought nothing to the table but unverifiable personal anecdotes, baseless assertions, and a near useless list of alleged top MLM earners. The latter source, even if accurate, shows at best that a very, very small group of people across the MLM industry make good money. This doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority does not, and that in essence, your source is akin to showing a handful of lottery winners as evidence that buying lottery tickets is a good way to secure one’s financial future.
Furthermore, any claim you make about who is making money in MLM and how much they are making requires that you provide verifiable evidence — absent that, just shut the F up about it. You are welcome to provide IRS filings and earnings statements to Lazyman to back up your earnings claims. If they exist, you can also scour for credible sources that backup any claims about the earnings of other people in MLM. In the real word (i.e., not the F-ed up Alice in Wonderland fairy tale world of MLM) top corporate salaries are typically in the public domain and can be easily verified. The reason the bar for evidence is set at this minimally low level is that, obviously, anyone can make astronomical but completely untrue claims about their earnings and wealth. In fact, this happens so often in MLMs (i.e., people lying about earnings) that it is a mantra in the industry – “fake it ‘til you make it”. We’ve seen numerous examples of alleged top sales leaders in Monavie and other companies who failed to maintain consistent sales and ranks over time and ended up in bankruptcy and foreclosure, all the while still posturing on stage, at the company’s behest, as though they were fantastically successful and wealthy. This tactic is used so often that even Dateline NBC picked up on it when they exposed the scaminness of Amway in their 2004 investigative report. The BS flows so deep in your gutter-bound industry that you have no right to ever expect to be believed at face value about anything – EVER!!!
Another simple fact you completely overlooked is that the earnings of the top people in MLM are not based solely on product sales but mainly on the sale of tools and so-called motivational training. The tools franchises are available to such a small group within any given MLM that earnings derived from this activity are completely beyond the grasp of virtually all who sign up to be distributors. This shouldn’t be news to you, so I have no choice but to chalk it up to dishonesty on your part that you did not point out this caveat. Aside from that, making big money in an MLM by cheating people — which is clearly what’s going on with Monavie, Protandim, Royal Tongan Limu, and many other MLMs – is not something to brag about and the people who do so should not be lauded. It is a badge of shame; an abuse of the public’s trust; and criminal in some cases.
You’ve made so many factually inaccurate statements that I can’t even begin to address them all (also because the few significant points you touched on were completely drowned in your longwinded torrent of white noise and BS). One glaring example was when you falsely stated that Monavie’s distributor failure data were skewed by people who join for the discount or who never take up the business side. That’s completely untrue and you would know this if you actually took the time to read the sources (Monavie’s IDS in this case) instead of firing off the first reflexive denial that arced across your synapses. The IDS clearly states that distributors are defined as those who signed up at least one participant under them and who received bonus checks. They are people who joined Monavie as a business and they failed. And the reason they failed is that, as Lazyman and others keep saying, failure is a mathematical near certainty (statistically speaking) that’s built into the model – and not just binary models. Companies interested in selling products to the public only hire people that are likely to be successful at it. MLMs don’t care whether they sell their product to the retail public, which is why they hire anyone with a pulse and a checkbook.
The rest of the flotsam bobbing in your ocean of BS appears to have been taken from chapter one of the Idiot’s Guide to MLM — eg, all corporations are just like MLM, we’re all employees (i.e., suckers), your critics are writing from their mother’s basements, etc.). The mother’s basement line almost made me spew this delicious macchiato out of my nose because as I, a non-employee, type this response, I’m staring out at the Alps from the balcony of my suite on my 6th week of vacation so far this year; none of it spent in dear old mom’s basement, F-face! I don’t expect you to take that at face value though, but my friends here know that I tell the truth consistently.
Be that as it may, you better up your game clown. Man the F up and either get on topic, start posting about Monavie, or follow through on what you’ve been threatening for days now – simply shut up and leave with your tail between your legs.
Hey Vogel-
Once again before I start posting, I point out another coward posting with a fake name hurling insults and cursing.
With that out of the way, are you serious? Can you even read? First off, I apologized to Lazyman for my error posting here when I should have posted on MLM Myth. After some misunderstanding, he stated that it was ok since it usually morphed into some conversation about Monavie. That said, I still want to leave but after saying good byes and wishing everyone well, people have addressed questions to me about various topics. I thought it rude not to answer. However, what I thought was a healthy conversation albeit difference of opinion has become a hurling of insults like you said, but mostly in my direction, not coming from me like your nonsensical post indicates.
Kudus to you on your success if it is indeed real. You are far more successful than I am. However, whether it be in your mom’s basement or in the Alps like you suggest, the fact remains that you are still a coward throwing insults from behind a computer. You should be above that. Obviously not.
I don’t have to up my game because it’s not a game for one. For another, I will leave, certainly not with my tail between my legs. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else here. I disagree with Lazyman’s (and your) take on MLMs. The ones you keep mentioning besides Monavie are ones I have never even heard of, and Lazyman indicated they are fly by nighters.
Speaking of manning up, you should man up, not me pal. You are another true coward that can’t discuss anything like a man when someone disagrees with you.
Remember, one of the principle of MLMs, all that money does is make you more of what you are. In your case, that’s a supreme a-hole.
By the way, even your “fake it til you make it” quote is off. It’s not about lying about your income. Noone should do that. It’s about portraying confidence and acting like you are a success before you actually are. Again, this comes not from MLMs but from self help books. Read some Anthony Robbins.
Good luck all.
Out of respect for Lazyman I will no longer respond to any insulting posts, so bash away cowards – from your mom’s basement, the Swiss Alps, or any other hideaway you have. If someone does ask me a legit question about Monavie (which I am not involved in) or MLMs in general I will try to respond.
If there are other sites that I can be a constructive part of, like one’s against bank fees, I’d be happy to join that crusade. Otherwise like you not so eloquently pointed out, we are diverging from the conversation Lazyman’s topic which was not my intention.
I have to say, I don’t have a problem with John addressing MLM in general. To me it’s similiar to someone who smokes Marlboro’s taking the pro-smoking position on a site who’s topic is the dangers of Newport. Most MLM and most cigarettes are the same and the point is the danger inherent wihthin. I believe the problems with the Monavie opportunity (the real thing being sold) are due to it being an MLM so it is relavent. Just my opinion, I realize it’s not my site nor my rules.
Moving on, John said “We disagree in principle because I believe MLMs are a valid business model and you don’t. ” I don’t “believe” Monavie is not a valid buisiness model, I DEMONSTRATED it.
You also said “I do agree with the failure rate I just don’t agree with the reasons and causes in legitimate MLMs (which I believe exist and you don’t).” Again, I mathematically demonstrated why the failure rate has to be 95%+. We can split hairs over why the remaining 4% fail, which has been the history with Monavie, Amway and just about every endless recruiting product based pyramid scheme I’ve looked at. As for whether i believe legitimate MLMs exist, I’m not saying it’s impossible, in fact I believe it is possible.
Good point DTM on the MLM talk in general. I’d just like to see specific points addressed in specific relevant articles on MLM Myth. It just makes for better organization.
John, are you aware of the irony in you of all people daring to call anyone else overzealous? You’ve posted here well over a dozen times in the course of a single week, and in fact have posted several times in rapid succession just today. Each time you do so, you simply reiterate the same tired line of BS that you’ve been using since you first showed up here, as if the key to making things true is to repeat them ad infinitum, and you have been incredibly rude and disrespectful as well. That is the very definition of zeal gone out of control, John, and given the unwarranted hostility in your posts, it is in fact you who appears to be rabid. So you need to stop hypocritically projecting your failures as a human-being onto us, and take a good long look in the mirror, John.
1. This is another case of you being intentionally obtuse, right? You can’t possibly be this dumb on accident, can you?
My question was not why you continue to post here, John, but rather, I’d like to know why you continue to disrespectfully refer to people as being overzealous, rabid cowards and basement-dwellers for no reason at all, and why you continue to misrepresent multi-level marketing long after having the reality of the business-model made clear to you.
As it stands, your seeming inability to understand even the simplest of concepts makes you look like a simpleton possessed of a mentally handicapped child’s reading comprehension skills. So you’re either truly as dumb as all that and we’re wasting our time by giving you the courtesy of responding to you, or you’re going out of your way to make yourself look like you’re that dumb for a good reason. I’d like to know which of the two it is, John, and if it’s the latter, then I’d like to know what that reason is.
Did I make it clear enough for you this time, or should I simplify it for you further?
2. Ooh, did I hit too close to home for your comfort, John? I’m guessing that I did! The rage wafting off of your post is almost palpable.
The point wasn’t that I found your Linkdin profile. After all, you, in all your undeserved bravado, welcomed us to suss out for ourselves which of the several John Verrillis you are. No John, the point was that in poking around your profile, your motivation for being here was made all the more clear to me. We already knew that you were involved in an MLM, but your profile suggests a larger involvement in network-marketing. So it’s clear to me that you continue to misrepresent it because of your personal stake in it, and that you’re acting like a dick about it because this site represents a threat to your ability to dupe other people into getting involved in Ambit Energy in particular. I get it. You’re desperate. Just dial it back a bit, would you?
Now with that out of the way, let me address the matter of my supposed cowardice. You see, John, you’re not the only mentally-imbalanced proponent of MLM that we’ve encountered over the years. Lazy himself has been threatened with violence in the past, and I wouldn’t put it past an apparent psychopath such as yourself to harass and threaten me should I reveal my identity. Someone who could fly off the handle as readily as you do without provocation is not to be trusted, and besides, facts don’t stop being facts simply because the person who presents them chooses to do so anonymously.
As for you, John, I’m willing to bet that you only used your name because you thought that after inviting us to take a look at your Linkdin profile, we’d come away from it so impressed by what we saw that we’d buy your BS lock, stock and barrel. Y’know, since you are incapable of bringing anything to the table that might stand on its own merits and all that. I wouldn’t put it past you. After all, you did trot out your alleged success in MLM as a counter to Lazy’s points, so it’s not much of a stretch to believe that you thought that your Linkdin profile would give you an undeserved air of authority on the subject. Unfortunately for you, your unqualified hubris backfired on you. Too bad!
3. John, you have repeatedly made reference to your alleged success in an MLM, and yet not once did you mention which one you’re involved in. That in itself is suspect, but it’s made even more so by the fact that you don’t seem all that eager to play what by all accounts should be your trump card, even as your lack of substantial counter-points continues to be painfully apparent. There’s something fishy about that, John.
Now you may take me for an idiot, but I don’t believe for one second that after making repeated references to your alleged success, you stopped short of actually mentioning by name the MLM in which you achieved that success because you don’t know the difference between earning yourself some desperately-needed credibility and advertizing. Nope, I don’t buy it at all, John. In fact I think it’s just like I said earlier, and that you’re the true coward here.
I’m quoting this directly because it’s absolutely hilarious! Have you ever considered going into comedy, John? It appears that in your overzealous rush to rabidly respond to me (I can totally envision you red-faced and pounding away at your keyboard), you forgot to actually make a point.
See, it’s just that it wouldn’t be an MLM if it were giving away a cure-all for free, now would it? It would just be a company giving away a free cure-all. And for that matter, is the cure-all proven to work? If so, then of course I’d be all for that! Who wouldn’t be? Now, if an MLM did give away the same proven cure-all for free, of course I’d still be all for it, but it wouldn’t change the reality of its business-model, nor would it buy the company a pass on having whatever product it uses as its hook scrutinized. I don’t know why you’d think it should.
As for Ambit, I can’t imagine that researching it will be a waste of time since the ten minutes or so that I spent doing just that earlier today was time well-spent. I learned all sorts of interesting things about the company, and I anticipate digging up even more interesting stuff in the future. Thanks for your concern though! It truly does warm my heart know that you’re worried about how I spend my time.
As for trying to move on, John, it is of your own volition that you continue to return. Yes, we do give you the courtesy of a response, but it is in fact just a courtesy, and nobody really cares about whether or not you respond in turn, and we’re certainly not forcing you to at gun-point. If in fact you really don’t want to respond, then just go. That you choose to stay here and do so is all on you and whatever self-control issues you may have.
So hey John, if you truly are ready to go then I suggest that you develop some will-power and just go already! It’s not as if we’re eager to have the continued company of such a spiteful, hate-filled little man as yourself anyway. In fact I think that we’d all breathe a sigh of relief to see the back of you, and as soon as possible if you please.
Thank you.
John whatever said:
How dare you! Was it it not you who in your very first post insultingly referred to the work that we’ve done here as, and I quote “…complete and utter trash…”, or was that another John Verrilli? I guess that it must have also been that other John Verrilli who went out of his way to insultingly portray as having nothing better to do than to jealously undermine other people’s hopes and dreams while we lament our own pathetic financial situations, right?
That was just your first post, John. You’ve gotten markedly more insulting since, most of it being unprovoked. So how dare you sit there like a great sodding pansy and whinge about how insulted you feel! If our reception of you has been less than warm, it’s because you’ve been an insufferable asshole from the very start, John. So dry your tears, build yourself a bridge, and then get the hell on over it.
John said: “Hey Vogel — Once again before I start posting, I point out another coward posting with a fake name hurling insults and cursing…Out of respect for Lazyman I will no longer respond to any insulting posts, so bash away cowards – from your mom’s basement, the Swiss Alps, or any other hideaway you have.”
Are you seriously crying foul now that the tables have turned, you little crybaby? I sat on the sidelines quietly shaking my head at the longwinded self-serving rancorous twaddle that you’ve been posting over the last few days until your comment about people posting from “mom’s basement” stirred me from complacency and prompted me to call you out as a deceitful mean-spirited doofus. Just for the record, it was you who fired the first salvos across the bow with obnoxious insulting comments like:
“This is the type of overzealous, stupid, comment I refer to.”
“Lazyman, you are either incredibly stupid, or you thing I am.”
“…know nothing jackasses that call me a snake from their computer in their mom’s basement”
“Then like a coward and an idiot, you accuse me of being afraid, realize you use a fake name.”
So I suppose it’s OK for you to post vapid comments and then start attacking people by calling them cowards and idiots and suggesting, with no basis whatsoever, that they are losers posting from “mom’s basement”, but for some reason it’s not OK when people respond to you in kind?
I had a glance at your Linkedin page and it says that you’re employed by the NYPD. If that’s true, then you must be the thinnest-skinned powder-puff to ever don the great blue uniform of the NYPD (i.e., hypocritically crying foul about “insults and cursing”). You’re not just a disgrace to MLM but to the hard working NY boys in blue as well. Like I said before, man the F up tinker-bell.
John,
You said “By the way, even your “fake it til you make it” quote is off. It’s not about lying about your income. Noone should do that. It’s about portraying confidence and acting like you are a success before you actually are. Again, this comes not from MLMs but from self help books. Read some Anthony Robbins.”
I’m all for confidence in one’s self, especially if it is merritted but faking something is another story. Self confidence based on faking, which by definition would include dishonesty, is only self deception and will be short lived because you know deep down that you are being dishonest. Confidence comes from strength and truth.
But how exactly are you faking success in MLM while simulateously not lying about your income?
Are you referring to this Anthony Robbins?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/23/tagblogsfindlawcom2012-injured-idUS36064864620120723
“Tony Robbins ‘Firewalk’ Burns 21 People’s Feet” According to the article, “… at this seminar, at least 21 people suffered burns on their feet. Some of the injuries were minor but several attendees had second- or third-degree burns on their feet.” Perhaps the people with third degree burns should just fake that they were successful.
“I know that most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their life.”
-Leo Tolstoy
I have registered to sell Monavie products…and not happy to read these comments….
I know people are doing very well selling the products.
Nancy
Jade, that’s myth #5 at my Summary of Common MLM Myths.
I’m hoping that you notice from the comments that there’s very bad karma around MonaVie. Terrible cosmic aura…
Jade, ask to see the tax returns of those that are doing well. There is a lot of “fake it till you make it” encouraged in MLM. This was covered a bit in the comments on the previous page.
If by chance they are truely one of the 1 or 2% who are actually making a profit, ask to see their downline. I can guarantee you that 97%+ are cash flow negative. The only way you will be profitable is to bring 30 or more losers into the scheme. Do you really want to be responsible for doing such a thing?
you can say what you think, I personally went to a meeting, bought a case and have sold some to my friends.8 in fact , and all of us have felt better than we have in years. They do not say it will cure anything. It did raise my antioxident levels, so my doctor tells me. One of my friends is a distributer and he has made over 50,000 in 6 months and he is not pushing it. I had COPD and still do, but now i can walk up hills and even run. Could not do this before….Check with real people that have used this.It is not for everyone, but if you use this as directed, some changes do occur, thanks
An apple raises your antioxidant levels more. What test has your doctor done to read your antioxidant levels. I’ve never been to the doctor and had her tell me my antioxidant levels. There’s never a recommendation to raise them or anything like that.
For your friend to have made $50,000 in 6 months without recruiting anyone, he’d have to have sold something like 5000 bottles… a nearly impossible task given the extraordinary high price of the bottles. That’s true even if you are making unfounded medical claims like it will make you feel better as you say here. If you are recruiting others to make the $50,000 in 6 months. By the way according to MonaVie, you can’t make this claim legally without it being the typical case: http://www.monavie.com/blogs/5-tips-every-monavie-distributor-needs-to-know-about-the-new-ftc-guidelines. Clearly making $50,000 in 6 months is not average. In fact from MonaVie’s income disclosure statement, extremely few people make this kind of money and it’s always done by recruiting others who lose massive amounts of money on $40 juice illegally being marketed as medicine.
Can you prove this $50,000 in six months? Hit up my contact form and send me images of the signed distributor agreement with the dated checks.
MonaVie doesn’t help with COPD and it is illegal for you suggest that it does as you have. MonaVie is not a medication and has no “use as directed” case associated with medicines. It’s a fruit juice just like Welch’s Grape Fruit juice. The creator of the juice admits that it is just fancy juice and the claims are BS.
Just a small comment in regards to the nutritional value. One of my employees, several years ago, gave me half a bottle of the Active to try. I didn’t notice much until after about a week of using it. A discoloration on my eye that I’ve had for 30 years, and had grown much larger, actually had shrunk to the size it had been approximately 10 years prior. The only possible explanation is the Monavie I’d been taking. Later, when I stopped taking it, it began to enlarge again slowly.
There are numerous explanations that have nothing to do with MonaVie. Given what we know about nutrition in general and MonaVie’s lack of it, it is much more likely that this is an untrue story… just for one example.
Even the creator of MonaVie said the nutritional claims were BS.
Hey @Brad Preuss – have you any before and after photos of your eye? Just curious, y’know, but just saying something doesn’t carry much weight without some proof.
Possible first signs of the predictable lemmings escape?
I just came across a Kathleen Deggelman (no pun intended) who in most places you currently look is/was a Black Diamond Executive. But she’s not on the list(s) – http://www.monavie.com/recognition/field-leaders which is because she’s jumped ship.
Her LinkedIn profile shoes that she’s made a habit of this (just like Larsen, Hart etc in the past) – http://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleendeggelman
Her new stuff is called Jeunesse, top doc of which is a guy called William Amzallag who was previously at Agel.
What’s my point?
A. The whack-a-mole habit of the “wellness” industry. I’ve just watched a YouTube video of Amzallag with his cute foreign sciencey accent extolling the virtues of Omega3 oils while the video shows lakes and salmon being sliced open. Ooh. Healthy lifestyle what! But this was with Agel….
Now Amzallag is flogging “rejuvenation” creams (Omega 3 not good enough eh?) and Deggelman has jumped on the bandwagon, probably hoping to drag along all her MV acolytes (aka downliners) with her recent plugs on her Facebook page and Twitter feeds advising everyone to get in on the earlybird release, the early bird pricing etc.
She’s gushingly pleased to be “creative” again, yet ’twas only in August she was gushingly pleased to be on MV holidays and “leading the way”.
Her website (and presumably as many domains as she’s had going or got around to) now points to her Facebook page. One thing she not got is shyness so it’s easy to find these pages so I’m not showing links.
So it’s goodbye to such shippets of wisdom as – http://www.monavie.com/blogs/kathleen-deggelman-on-monavie%25e2%2580%2599s-income-disclosure-statement and her now defunct web posting entitled
“FIVE ways to leverage the MonaVie Income Disclosure Statement”, which you can still see in google’s cache here:
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SPNXNDqNJWkJ:kathleendeggelman.com/ids/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk
…and hello to rejuvenating wellness cream bollox or something. naturally, there’s a “family” of products to buy.
(Funnily enough, even though it’s only creams that Jeunesse is flogging, there is a nice tidy group of cosmetic surgeons on the company board!)
Some other gems in the “Deggelman as MV Black Diamond” google cache are:
“Paid to Vacation? Yep, you heard right!”
and
“How MonaVie Changed My Life”
And life-changing it is (not) but a very good example of the ship-jumping skills of the greedy lemmings.
Interestingly, there is a whole article devoted to the whole “diamond” rats scurrying from the sinking Mona Vie ship over on the Amthrax site. I note Ms. D. even says her “esthetician” commented on her skin and asked what she was doing…wait…is it the Mona Vie or the Jeunesse? I am confused. I am sure her lemmings are too. Ah, but I am sure that she will continue to purchase and drink the purple elixir even though she has moved onto another “company”. I mean, the juice changed her life, right?
Amthrax notes the other ex-diamonds involved in Jeunesse and their most recent successes ” The Karshners and the Alwins were most recently hawking the money-making potential of ZeekRewards, which we know now was a Ponzi Scheme”. Yep, if Karshner’s doing it, you know it’s a winner. Kelly Bangert is also there, another upstanding representative of the scamness industry.
When will the madness end? When will people wake up and realize that these are all Ponzi schemes no matter how they try to disguise them?
I have three words for everyone considering getting involved in any of these schemes… research, research, research. And I don’t just mean the “company” (I use the term very loosely), I mean the people involved.
Also, if your first instinct is “pyramid scheme” don’t let them try to tell you differently with their confusing mathematical formulas as the end result is the same, I assure you. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it IS a Ponzi duck.
Humiliated, thanks for the update. MonaVie continues to collapse and it was really only a matter of time.
There will always be people lacking the intelligence see that these are pyramid schemes. Many will be given false information like if it involves a product it is not a pyramid scheme. Ideally, you’d see some major regulation come through and fix the problem, but they seem to contribute enough campaign money to avoid regulation.
I guess I might need to look into this Jeunesse Global stuff.
Has anyone investigated Monavie’s “anti-oxidant scanner” yet?
I have some unfortunate relatives who pre-purchased one, based on a demo at a recent MV event. I’m dying to know what the thing actually does, if anything. (There’s some mumbo jumbo on the MV site about it, which made me wonder if it’s actually a glucose meter, maybe?) Apparently, it was hyped in person as a sales tool – simply measure anti-oxidants prior to and after taking a shot of MV, and use the startling results as the basis of a $-back guarantee!
Looking forward to the low-down on this . . . If you guys have already discussed it, would someone kindly point me to the thread?
Looks like it is a rip-off of the Nuskin scanner. I was going to write an article on that, and I still might, but essentially these scanners can be calibrated so that people show up low. What happens if I skip the MonaVie and measure before and after eating an apple?
It’s interesting to watch this video on MonaVie View, their scanner: http://www.monavie.com/view. At around the 6:30-7:00 minute mark when they are explaining it, they say that it is revolutionary, but it’s the same thing that Nuskin has had for a long time. Worse is that they have the audience members in t-shirts to reflect their score. That is exactly what Dr. Oz did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp3tEgozLtY
How better to scream “scam” to the world than to produce a POS promo video like this. I’m not sure what offends me most — the cornball amateurish infomercial production values or the absurdly flawed “scientific” details leading up to the pitch for the View scanner. They didn’t even bother to do a retake after Jeff Graham flubbed his opening line (00:57) and referred to antioxidants as “oxi-oxidants”
http://www.monavie.com/view
The device is a retread of a similar quack-box (Biophotonic Scanner) sold by Utah MLM Pharmanex some years ago. It’s based on Ramen spectroscopy, and in the very best case scenario a Ramen scan of the finger would be useful only for measuring carotenoid levels in the outer layer of the skin, which is one of the main places that carotenoids naturally bioaccumulate due to their high fat solubility (e.g., people can turn orange from regularly taking high doses of beta-carotene). The method does not measure any other type of antioxidants (including all water-soluble antioxidants) or distinguish between beta-carotene and other carotenodids (like lutein, lycopene, zeaxanthin, etc.), nor does it provide a valid indication of overall antioxidant status or antioxidant status in any specific organ. The readings will go off the chart by simply taking a beta-carotene supplement, and since Monavie products are fortified with beta-carotene, it’s a fait accompli that skin beta-carotene levels will go up after consuming the products.
The scanner has no clinical or diagnostic value whatsoever and buying it would be a colossal waste of money. All of the above applies to the best case scenario (e.g., when the Ramen method is applied in the lab with good equipment); it would be even less reliable if applied using a wonky little portable device made for (gullible) consumers. It’s extremely unlikely that any device marketed by Monavie would be reliable enough to achieve the best-case scenario; rather, I’d expect the wheels to fall off, so to speak, after about a week.
It’s all so sad. I have no doubt about what the real end game is here — bleed distributors with yet another whopping expense for yet another worthless product. They will be convinced that buying the scanner for demos will help them “build the business”, which not only seems pretty unlikely but would also involve deceiving people. It’s also another means to trick distributors into becoming more deeply invested in the business and therefore less likely to quit (and quit pouring money into the company’s and upline’s coffers). Pathetic.
The Kerala Distributor,Mr.Sajeev Nair of Monavie has been arrested by the Police in connection with the Money chain business
VijayaVarma, can you provide me a link to that information?
http://newindianexpress.com/cities/kochi/article1287665.ece
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/raid-on-monavie-chiefs-house/298666-60-122.html
Good find with the links Vogel. Google News India failed me.
Like with any other business, you have to work it for it to work. LOL Monavie has a great product! Although, I opted not to sell it, it is great. I do have business partners making money selling it. Just try it once, and see if you like it, if not, don’t bash others that like and benefit from it! Good luck all:)
Kay, two thoughts come to mind: It’s Not a Matter of Effort, it’s a Mathematical Certainty and The Problem with the “Try MonaVie” Argument.
So glad to see this article published. I was told I simply “had to join” when the RVL products were being “reformulated.” I felt very skeptical doing it, but against my better judgement, did it anyway. The RVL products were awful! They tasted bad, had little nutritional benefits and gave everyone HORRIBLE gas. I was asked to be patient (while paying out hundreds of dollars) to wait for the “new launch” in May of 2012. In good conscience, no friend of mine should have pushed sub-par products on me under the guise of ‘being at the top,’ knowing full well that the top has been filled for years. It is SATURATED, just like you say. I didn’t feel a single difference in all the months I drank that expensive and yucky tasting juice. I think it has a placebo effect for some people, and I also think it is extremely wrong for the big-wigs to be touting it’s miraculous results; it’s become a telephone tree gone wrong, as no one I know has actually felt, or seen first hand, any of these so-called miracles. What a huge waste of money. People- go buy some organic fruits and veggies at the farmer’s market. Cook them with your kids rather than spending all day on the phone trying to talk other people into drinking juice. You’ll save money and will influence people in far better ways.
Monavie’s new Vice President of Research and Product Development is one Dr. Shawn Talbott. His resume includes hawking CortiSlim and CortiStress, where the FTC charged him because he “made false or unsubstantiated product claims and used deceptively formatted infomercials in pitching the dietary supplements.”
http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2005/09/windowrock.shtm
Then he went scam juice MLM Xango until the bottom fell out of that scam. Now he found a home at Monavie — seems a perfect fit.
Monavie says, “Dr. Talbott will be responsible for developing and overseeing the creation of an overall product strategy.” I guess he’ll use his expertise in making shit up about this useless products.
Just back to say thanks to lazyman and vogel for commenting on the scanner scam box (above). Great info, as usual. Sad scammerama, as usual. Sigh.
I would like to say that I had tremendous results from Active, suffering from arthritis & fibromyalgia & insomnia..I was able to sleep through the night, I was able to go from not being able to walk a few blocks with out pain , to walk up to 6 miles a day pain free plus I lost 15 lbs & belly fat..The problem was the price & I signed up as a distributor I was told I would have a spot at the top , and that my up line would help me so I could get my product for free.. Well, I e-mailed them , several times, never heard from them, they even went to the same church I attended. But never seemed interested in talking with me. I was doing auto – ship as that is what you have to do to keep your spot , I guess, but since I am on SSI the payments weren’t working with my one time a month pay check, my small income. I wrote the company and complained about it, I let them know how wonderful it was & how great I felt, but my up-line was not getting in touch with me, the response I received back, was then “you need to find another up-line”. So, I am back hurting, can only walk 1 mile. every other day or two. gained my weight back. I sleep but not as good as I did on the active.I did buy some off amazon.com but again it is just to much money. Thank you for your article I am going to get some glucoseamine and see if that helps.
Sherry, even the inventor of MonaVie said it was just juice in court filings, nothing magical. I hope the glucosamine works for you, but it looks like there’s not reliable evidence that it does anything.
Sherry, have you ever considered that your condition may be mostly psychosomatic?
I only ask because knowing what we do about it, there’s simply no way that Monavie could have possibly improved your condition at all, so it certainly can’t account for how you went from being unable to walk a few blocks before the pain got to be too unbearable to you being able to walk a whole six miles pain-free. While my knowledge on the subject is admittedly somewhat limited, I don’t see how the placebo-effect could account for it either. Even being as susceptible to it as you were, having been conditioned to believe that Monavie would work for you before you’d even taken a single sip, that’s just too radical an improvement to be attributable to the placebo-effect.
Psychosomatic illness is not uncommon, with sources claiming that up to 90% of all doctor visits are for health problems stemming from stress. I don’t doubt that you were in pain, but that perhaps stress exacerbated your condition. Perhaps the expectation you had that Monavie would help with it actually helped alleviate your stress instead, which naturally lead you to feel better.
Whatever the case may be, you’re better off not being involved in Monavie, and you’re better off not wasting your money on it. Same goes for glucosomine as well, as it hasn’t been proven to provide any benefits at all to arthritis sufferers. If your condition is in fact largely psychosomatic, you’d be better advised to seek out and try some stress-relief methods.
Anyway, I wish you all the best, and may you find the relief you deserve.
Oh, and of course it goes without saying that you should also visit a doctor, as even if your condition is largely psychosomatic its effects on your body and your health are very real just the same.
Just wanted to make that clear.
Sherry.
You could try this:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Joint-Juice-Glucosamine-Chondroitin-Blend-Blueberry-Acai-4-6pk-8oz/14292593
I would like to outlines some of the points you made:
1. as for the products that you said would beat MonaVie in terms of pricing, you specified that they are all in tablet or capsule form. Tablets have at best an 18% absorbance capacity, while in liquid form, Monavie has up to 98% absorbance capacity into the bloodstream. Meaning that more resources are absorbed into the bloodstream.
2. You say that MonaVie is overpriced and some fruits have a better nutritional value than it. http://www.hoaxorfact.com/Health/be-careful-apples-coated-with-harmful-wax.html
think again.
3. There has been no actual claim that specified that MonaVie is a cure for anything, but rather a prevention of diseases. A test was done with leukaemia cells at the University of Florida, suggesting some sort of nutritional quality in the Acai berry, and this was shown on the various news media. No media channels would tarnish their name to endorse something that would be a scam.
4. You make a lot of claims about the CEO claiming that Monavie was just juice. Well of course it is juice. A juice with nutritional qualities, and beneficial effects for the body. To claim that the CEO said otherwise, without evidence is unnecessary and very unconvincing.
5. The statement you made about Ralph Carson, I have been made very well aware of on wikipedia. Since it is an editable source by just about anyone, it is not a credible source of evidence for you to claim that.
6. You call yourself the lazy man, but are you successful? Do you have an actual name you can tell us behind that alias? It would be convenient for us readers to know a bit about your track record and your credibility for downplaying MonaVie. You cannot be lazy and be successful in my opinion.
That is all.
1) As you can see from my image of a MonaVie bottle in the article, MonaVie doesn’t contain many vitamins and minerals in the first place. MonaVie has since updated their product and supplemented it with more vitamins and minerals, but you don’t know if they’ve mixed in crushed pills in a liquid. If they did, you could do the same and get the same absorbance. There’s been no independent studies on MonaVie absorbance into the bloodstream that I’ve seen.
2) That Hoax or Fact website isn’t reputable and is filled with basic capitalization and grammar errors. You should bring a more reputable source to the table. It is quite clear that MonaVie lacks nutrition, so even if apples had wax on it, simply peel the apple or go with an orange, banana, etc. Plenty of fruits available. Remember that if you think fruit is harmful, MonaVie is also harmful because it is fruit without all the good stuff (fiber).
3) It is illegal for anyone to claim that MonaVie can prevent diseases. It is a violation of the FDA law.
MonaVie is not acai… acai is not MonaVie. There are much cheaper non-diluted versions of acai if that’s important to you. Vitamin C also kills cancer cells in a test tube, but it doesn’t work the same way in humans. We are much more complex than test tubes.
Media channels were duped an wanted to capitalize on a feel good story. They make mistakes too. I haven’t seen any media outlets endorsing MonaVie in years.
4) The point about showing that it is just juice, is that it is no different than Welch’s or Ocean Spray juice in your supermarket aisle. It has no more beneficial effects and again, almost no nutrition.
5) I don’t know what problem you have with me quoting the inventor of the juice saying that it is expensive water with no real beneficial qualities.
6) Yes, I’m quite successful, but how is that important to MonaVie? I have provided all the necessary research for you and it is all from unbiased third parties. You don’t need to analyze my credibility, but the credibility of the sources (i.e. do you think the inventor of MonaVie was lying when it called it expensive water?)
good man, saved my wife from joining … they pushing hard here in Europe, Poland, Germany, Ireland, UK .. .very aggressive NLP – no facts
Here in Tokyo people are spending loads on MonaVie. The information on Wiki is only on the English site, the Japanese page does not have the same info. Its hard to tell people that this is all bullshit, it seems like the only hope they have of making a living.
If someone who is a native speaker of Japanese wants to work with me to spread this information use the Contact link and send me an email.
If you are gaining weight back check out Mark Macdonalds book called Body Confidence. I have been in 3 other mlm companies and never made money. We got into Monavie 3 years ago. We replaced my full time income after a year. Now I need to say this…if Monavie was an illegal pyramid scheme the FTC would have shut them down long ago. Can you say Zeek Rewards?? (But that was actually the SEC that shut them down because it was a Ponzi scheme.) The charity, The MORE Project is NOT a charity fraud…. You can travel to Brazil and check it out for yourself..which might be a good idea. Then what you say can be realized as false information. I don’t believe the founder of The Cartoon Network, cofounder of TNT and developer of online banking would affiliate themselves with a scam company. Yes people quit. The great thing about moms is that anyone can join….which is also the bad thing. People spread lies whether they work for themselves or work for an employee. We are proud to be a part of an organization that rewards your success… We have had the President of the company here in our home working with us through a difficult situation that affected us personally. We are gold executives, not diamonds or black diamonds…I can promise you this…the good neighbor company I used to work for would never have concern for us the way Corporate leaders do. We are small fries compared to many others in companies across the US. Not all folks associated w mlm companies have great character or integrity…which gives this industry a bad name…but NO one can say we haven’t given 100 effort to help those on our team be successful. And by the way, if your wife had someone tell her a bottle of juice was 45.00 they lied to her…it’s too bad you’ve been telling others incorrect information. A case is 130 and there are 4 bottles in the case. That’s not 45.00. I hope in the future you will do a little more research. On things before you make statements that aren’t true….I always hope people who are “reporters” do investigative work to make sure what they say is accurate. Best wishes for a wonderful 2013!
Since Mark MacDonald is a MonaVie spokesperson, he’d be the last person I’d trust on that. There are many reputable books on maintaining weight loss and it pretty much all comes down to what everyone knows, eating right and being active… neither of which involves MonaVie.
Zeek Rewards, which I had written about too, was essentially turning their point system into an investment vehicle, which is why the SEC stepped in. MonaVie would be a pyramid scheme using the FTC definitions laid out in this MLM vs. pyramid scheme guidelines. If you’ve been following the Herbalife stuff in the news with Ackman and/or watched the CNBC video selling the dream, the FTC’s stance is not to investigate anything unless they have thousands of complaints. Most people don’t complain, because it is so complex that they didn’t realize they were in a pyramid scheme in the first place.
I haven’t looked at the MORE Project in a couple of years, but it was a total scam of a charity. MonaVie gave almost no money to it and used the distributors money give the CEO’s relative (I think a sister or sister in-law) a cushy 6-figure job.
I really don’t see the founder of The Cartoon Network being a large MonaVie distributor… what level is he at? Has he gone Gold yet? If he’s not willing to be a distributor, maybe you should ask why not. Surely the a smart guy like the founder of The Cartoon Network recognizes a good business opportunity right? Oh maybe it’s because he knows 99% of people lose money in MonaVie.
If you are Gold, you shouldn’t consider yourself small fries… you are in the less than 1% according to the MonaVie income disclosure statement. In 2009, the last year MonaVie reported the numbers, there were less than 400 gold members. I should hope they are able to give personal attention to people who are in the 99 percentile. If you consider yourself fortunate, what kind of attention is the other 99% getting?
It’s not that there are bad characters in MLM. There are to be sure and I’ve pointing out a few (even one in the article above). However, it isn’t one or two bad apples or even a hundred bad apples. The system mathemaically ensures 99% of people must lose money. It doesn’t matter if you are committed to helping others… it doesn’t change the system.
MonaVie Active really did retail for $45 a bottle in 2008. This is a commonly agreed upon fact. MonaVie has changed the price to around $40 since then, but it was accurate at the time. They also have bulk discounts, but that’s a different thing entirely and for you to represent the bulk price as the retail price of a bottle is dishonest and makes for the bad apples in the industry. It is still going to cost a person $1500 a year or a family of four over $5000 (assuming further discounts), which is a very nice car payment.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chicceo/2012/09/27/is-mlm-a-bad-word/
I liked the response… “MLM is not a word.”
I think the article doesn’t do address the criticisms and comparisons to pyramid schemes that even the FTC warns about. The article mentions the problems, but then just ignores them and moves on to names that people recognize: Avon, Mary Kay, and Tupperware.
Mary Kay has been shown to be a pyramid scheme: http://harpers.org/archive/2012/08/the-pink-pyramid-scheme/, http://www.pinktruth.com/mary-kay-facts/mary-kay-destroying-women/
Avon is on its way: http://pyramidschemealert.org/has-mlm-corrupted-avon/
Tupperware: “Tupperware, for example, no longer calls itself a direct sales company, instead using the term direct-to-consumer… speaking to the Wall Street Journal, CEO Rick Goings said, ‘Direct selling left us, because the industry became dominate by buying clubs and what looked like pyramid schemes.'” – http://www.cnbc.com/id/100366770/039Don039t_Call_Me_a_MultiLevel_Marketer039
The CEO of Tupperware got it right, MLM has stopped being about having a party plan and selling product at retail (which the FTC says is illegal) and instead has moved to the MonaVie method of recruiting people to join and not selling outside the network. In fact, it is almost impossible to sell outside the network, since they give deep product to join the network and make it free. Referring back to the FTC documentation above if MLMs don’t have sales outside the network it is a pyramid scheme.
I forgot to mention that this author makes the mistake of grouping MLMs with other legit home-businesses: “So, the next time you meet someone who runs a ‘home business’ or ‘MLM’ give them a high five for taking their career and life into their own hands and becoming an entrepreneur.”
Rather than reading this person’s opinion, it may be better to actually read what USA Today wrote on MLMs and how most people are losing money: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2011-02-07-multilevelmarketing03_CV_N.htm. They cover a wide range of MLMs.
Great review on monavie, i struggled for a while doing what my up-line and what i learnt in the training. Trying to get all my family and friends to join my business and taste the fancy looking acai berry juice with all the other 18 beneficial fruits, they all looked at me like it was a scam, even though i had the bottle in my hand, then there is the cost of the bottles, at the time it was all adding up as i was dreaming i would of had a few on board by now paying for my juice, but that did not happen.
[Editor’s Note: James’ advertisement for a recruiting service has been deleted.]
The FTC, with several state agencies, got a federal court to shut down the MLM Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing pending trial today: http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2013/01/fhtm.shtm.
Here are some quotes and how they could easily be applied to MonaVie:
“This is a classic pyramid scheme in every sense of the word. The vast majority of people, more than 90 percent, who bought in to FHTM lost their money.” – Kentucky Attorney General Jack Conway
It’s been shown that 99.54% of MonaVie Distributors lose money in that business venture… so it is far worse.
“In addition to charging the defendants with operating an illegal pyramid scheme and making false earnings claims, the FTC charged them with furnishing consumers with false and misleading materials for recruiting more participants.” – Text from the FTC article.
There’s been a lot of documented illegal health claims made about MonaVie including top distributor billing it as a cure for cancer and swine flu, just a few of the many examples. MonaVie has also pushed it’s misleading, “Antioxidant equivalent to 13 fruits” claim
It looks like there could be some bad times for MonaVie ahead.
I tried Monavie and actually liked the product, but I never felt the energy that I was supposed to get. I also wanted a good MLM product, of which I believe there are only a few. My family used an MLM product before I became a distributor, therefore I think that shows that I believed there was value in the product before I started selling it. I think each case is different. Mine is found at [advertisement removed]. I think [advertisement removed] is the real deal in health and wellness.
I became a MonaVie distributor after drinking the juice and feeling great. I have restricted movement in my back and I felt great relief after drinking for couple of weeks.
This actually was a surprise to me as I was just randomly given bottles by a friend (who has now quit) and had not wanted specific results out of it. My skin is fantastic and I certainly never pick up colds or bugs that circulate.
This is just my experience and it is as valid as anyone else’s. I have no idea what others will experience with MonaVie. What I do know is I will continue to order it as a distributor or a customer and I will recommend it to people I talk to if I feel they may get something from it…. regardless if they buy it from me or someone else.
I wrote an article today that applies to all these MLM products:
No, Your MLM Health Product Doesn’t “Work.”
http://www.tristanrogers.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=952
This is from a few years ago.
Lazy Man;
It’s posts like this that people leave on the internet, mostly due to the fact that they were LAZY and it seems here very ignorant of true! as it has been proven for years, is it the company or is it YOU!!? I mean really if this was such a illegal pyramid why haven’t the FED’s or other authorities stepped in and shut them down, but don’t you find it odd if you really looked at it they are just going up in Billions every year! and if they were such a fluke why was it that INC 500 a very well known company evaluated them and gave them such high ratings!
And just to tell you Mr Lazy Man, I have been in this company for 4 four years, and the awesome things that I have seen with my own eyes right in front of me due to this company and their products. No we don’t make medical claims, but I will tell you my dad is still here with us after a very bad bladder cancer incident, and mind you he never once had one ounce of chemo therapy, that is only one person that I have seen out of 100’s that has had their lives given back to them!
so before you keep running your uneducated mouth about a company and product that is changing millions of lives around the world, you might want to get over your pity party because you couldn’t make it anywhere with it in your endeavors! And honestly reading what you have said, and you attitude about this company and their products, maybe you might want to take a look in the mirror and find out where the real problem is! just remember Mona vie is still here generating billions in sales, and helping peoples health and creating millionaires!
Dave,
I’m not sure if you were able to tell or not, but years and years of hard work are in this post and the ones at MonaVie Scam. It’s Lazy of you to ignore especially when you can follow it simply by reading the comments.
Why hasn’t MonaVie been shut down? I invite you to read about Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing that the FTC shut down about 6 weeks ago. Here’s a quote from the FTC’s court filing: “In its decade of operation, FHTM has defrauded hundreds of thousands of customers out of hundreds of millions of dollars.” – quote from the FTC on in its court filing (PDF) in shutting down Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing as a pyramid scheme. This came 2.5 years after USA Today exposed them for running a pyramid scheme.
So the answer is that there’s a lack of law enforcement going on. The FTC admits that they don’t look into these things unless they get a ton of complaints (see the interview in the 17th-19th minutes of this CNBC video.) Consumers assume that the company is legal or it would have been shut (like you did) and the FTC assumes that if people were being scammed they’d complain. The result is that nothing happens because people don’t know they were scammed.
MonaVie isn’t going up in billions every year… it’s been dropping drastically over the last few years. They’ve even admitted it. Many of their Black Diamonds have moved on to other companies because MonaVie sales weren’t working.
Inc 500 didn’t evaluate MonaVie and give it high ratings. You shouldn’t be so Lazy and do the research like I did. Here it is for you: http://www.juicescam.com/monavie-and-inc-magazines-500/
I love how you say, “we don’t don’t make medical claims” and then make a medical claim. You are directly breaking the law by implying that there’s a relationship between your dad’s cancer and MonaVie. Maybe you deny making that connection, but then why bring up your dad’s disease at all? It’s not relevant to the topic of MonaVie.
Just remember No, Your MLM Health Product Does Not “Work”.
I just learned that Carson, who was always described as the developer of Monavie, is apparently no longer on Monavie’s Science Board. When did that happen? Does anyone know the circumstances? I don’t see his name anywhere on the Monavie site now. What about Schauss?
I think they’ve both moved on. MonaVie lost such a huge percentage of distributors maybe they went elsewhere. Or else maybe they retired with their millions from their deals with MonaVie. Maybe MonaVie wanted to get new spokesmen who were better fit for their weight-loss products.
I suppose perhaps their shady dealings have had too much light shed on them and are too easy to see now? Better to start fresh?
The creepy thing is that I sense an Orwellian rewrite of history coming on.
You see, the only reason I noticed Carson was gone is that the Monavie guy I know started boring me with some health claims, so I pointed out that Carson, himself, had called them “bogus.” (Y’all recall that memo that surfaced in court.)
Monavie guy shrugged, “Carson who?” I think he may have been vaporized.
It hasn’t received marketing to this point, but there is a great petition out there to end pyramid schemes. I encourage everyone following this to sign it.
I’ve received an email asking if I would be interested in selling Monavie products. I’ve had a look at their video and website and the whole thing screams scam. Thanks for exposing it.
Your “information” is very one sided. I think you must think all MLM companies are scams. I think your comments are based on this… you get people on here and scare them into not trying something that may make a difference for their family. We make money every single week with Monavie and haven’t been sick in three years. If Monavie was a pyramid scheme, the FTC would have shut us down. Your website name says it all… Lazy Man.
I couldn’t find another good side to “MonaVie is a grossly overpriced product, with little nutritional value, wrapped in a poor business opportunity that appears to be illegal pyramid scheme, supported by nonsensical ‘scientific’ studies and illegal medical claims.” I will say that the bottle looks pretty. Is that less one-sided now?
The FTC Doesn’t Shut Down Pyramid Schemes Unless Many People Complain. Most people think that the FTC would shut down MonaVie if it was illegal so they don’t complain. A couple of months ago, the FTC shut down Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing saying that they defrauded hundreds of thousands of people out of hundreds of millions of dollars over the span of a decade. Yes it was an MLM, but it took too long for people for make complaints to get the FTC to look into.
I think it’s clear that the Lazy Man is an ironic joke like how a big dog is called Tiny. The extensive research put into this article should make it clear.
Here’s what I find confusing, Jane. You say that the information contained in the article is one-sided and accuse Lazy of being biased. Now, maybe it’s just me, but if I encountered someone who was spreading one-sided information about something in which I had a personal stake, my priority would be to present the other side of the story first and foremost. You, however, spent the entirety of your post attacking Lazy, leaving readers unclear as to what the other side of the Monavie story is supposed to be, exactly. We can ony wonder why.
Actually, we don’t have to wonder. We already know what you’re up to. We’ve seen it a thousand times. For some inexplicable reason you idiots have convinced yourselves that attacking Lazy’s credibility will turn readers off to the article, as if folks who read this site will somehow overlook your involvement with the company and won’t question your motives. The problem is that even more than just being pathetically innefectual, your attacks on Lazy only serve to undermine Monavie all the more!
You see, that you attack Lazy rather than address the article makes it clear that it has you running scared, and that you want desperately to bury it so that you can continue scamming people unfettered by the truth. That makes it clear that everything contained in the article is fact, which is made all the more apparent by the fact that you wouldn’t have to resort to this tactic in the first place if you were people were capable of refuting it. It’s almost sad, really. You idiots really believe that you’re doing yourselves and Monavie a favor with this crap, but besides wasting your time, all you accomplish is to make it all the more clear that Monavie is in fact a scam. Talk about your horrible backfires, eh?
I’d pity you if I could stop laughing at how stupid your desperation has made you. Alas I cannot. I’ll never stop being morbidly amused by the depths to which people will sink for even the mere promise of a quick buck, in which the case of Monavie is a promise that the company cannot, and will not, ever deliver upon. You can sit here and claim that you’re making money selling it, but unless you got in at the top of the pyramid, it’s pretty much a mathematical certainty that you’re not making squat. In fact, chances are better by a wide margin that you’re actually losing money being involved with Monavie. Of course as long as the company continues to dangle that promise of riches in front of you like a carrot, you’ll continue to ignore your immediate losses, and you’ll remain blind to the truth about the product and the company. At least until you’ve sunk your last asset into the “business”, anyway. Only then will you realize that we were only ever trying to help you, but by then it’ll be too late. You’ll just be another victim of the MLM industry.
Well, nobody can say we never tried, right? At least we can do our best to keep other folks from being screwed by people like you, Jane, and by Monavie and all its bullshit promises, both about the product and the “business opportunity” alike. That makes all of this worthwhile, even if you’re a lost cause.
I would say that Jane gave a weak attempt to show another side of MonaVie when she said, “We make money every single week with Monavie and haven’t been sick in three years.” Of course this is a personal statement and easy to rebut. You’ve already pointed out that making the money is extremely rare. Not only that, but except for an extremely unlikely 1 in a million case where people are actually selling enough product outside of MonaVie to make money, but making money is done by pushing the financial losses on dozens of other people. It’s not something to be proud of.
Not being sick in three years, that happens and it isn’t necessarily due to MonaVie. If MonaVie had a cure for sickness, they’d get it FDA approved and make billions with it.
@Jane
The information on your website is very one-sided…. scanpurple.com redirecting to http://www.monavie.com/en/rep/nomatterwhat
You say that a millionaire is created every 25 days, which is about 14-15 a year. Yet you don’t provide a list.
You say that Monavie has groundbreaking patents yet you don’t say what they’re for or what Monavie does in them.
What does Monavie actually do? You don’t say.
Very one-sided IMHO.
Lazy Man! stop telling bad about monavie!, it is the best company, product and management in the world! Educate your self before putting nonsence. I would never believe the person who advertize own company and says bad about others. Thats not how it works. you look bad , lazy man, very bad! Monavie never talks about others bad, you should learn from us! be polite and nice and “maybe” people will start to like you, not yet
I have a friend that sells this monavie and i tell him.. Wow this is so powerfull that will even do taxes return for me… Will this do my laundry and cook my dinner? Kkkkk if monavie is the answer then will it clean my house… .
I hope and pray that you will be okay and won’t have Monavie against you any longer. You should tell the truth and that should be allowed. What you could do is say these are the good parts about Monavie and these are the ones I didn’t like but some people might like it. So then they can say nothing.
It’s quite sad that someone put all this time and effort into bashing the juice and company. Really makes me wonder..
Nicole, don’t worry, many, many were harmed so bad by MonaVie that they were happy to help contribute in order to stop help other avoid making the same mistakes. This isn’t the work of one person. I take it as great compliment that you think it would be.
people are funny… if you like it buy it… and just like any other product, if you really like it recommend it to friends… if they like it they will do the same… the only thing different is that if others like it you can make a small sales commission… keep it simple… don’t sweat things you can’t control… there are lots of mlm’s that make lots of healthy nutrition products.. better individuals make some of the money for spreading the word than big corporations that constantly lie about their products on TV and make millions of stupid consumers… like Cheerios helps heart disease… and vitamin water is good for you …
Most other products aren’t like MonaVie. As I showed in the article, MonaVie is a grossly overpriced product, with little nutritional value, wrapped in a poor business opportunity that appears to be illegal pyramid scheme, supported by nonsensical “scientific” studies and illegal medical claims.
Your Cheerios and Vitamin Water examples fall flat. It’s like saying that because one person stole a car, stealing cars is acceptable.
Pat you are right, people are funny.