Le-Vel tried to sue me for the article below… , AND I WON! The court’s decision is here. Their conclusion states, “We decide in [Lazy Man’s] favor on his first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and tenth issues. We need not reach [Lazy Man’s] eighth and ninth issues.”
The court also ruled that Le-Vel must pay sanctions, which, in my understanding, is money they have to pay for bad behavior with their lawsuit. Score one for this blogger who was only giving his opinion on a reader’s question.
I have provided this information so that you can make an informed decision. I encourage everyone to look for sources that are not influenced by Le-Vel’s money.]
What is Le-vel Thrive?
About six weeks before I published this article, a regular reader, Jason, wrote me:
” [My neighbor] has started this ‘Thrive’ regiment with a patch, a pill, and perhaps some other lifestyle changes, and posts daily pictures of herself on Facebook to ‘document’ her progress with weight loss. To me, this looks to be just another one of the plethora of scams and schemes out there. What do you know about this ‘company’? Perhaps you’ve already written articles on it that I wasn’t aware of. If not… perhaps this could be one to look into and write about for future articles.
So let’s dig in and see what we can learn about Le-vel Thrive.
What is Thrive?
Thrive is a series of products from the Le-vel MLM.
THRIVE Premium Lifestyle DFT™ Patch
A few weeks before publishing this article, Talking Points Memo wrote a great article about MLM which featured a Le-vel distributor: How Utah Became a Bizarre, Blissful Epicenter for Get-Rich-Quick Schemes
This article gives an introduction to the Thrive patch:
“After a week of wearing the Thrive nutritional patch, Denise Holbrook discovered what seemed like superhuman strength. When her husband fainted outside of a hospital, she caught him. ‘How the hell am I holding up a 200-pound man by myself?’ she remembers thinking… In a post, she announced that she thought it would be selfish not to share the supplement, considering it had allowed her to stop taking anti-anxiety medication and stay awake after sleepless nights amid her husband’s deterioration.”
The article continues:
Still, few dietary supplements have the kind of negative reviews that Thrive does, and many have been evaluated with much more thoroughness by the scientific community. (Q Sciences, for instance, claims its products are backed by research at 15 universities.) So why do distributors choose Thrive, in spite of so many stories about sketchy side effects?
When pressed by the author, Denise Holbrook said, “It’s a lot of mind-over-matter.”
So much to process here:
- There’s the obvious adrenaline that would explain holding up a 200-pound man. Also, she isn’t picking the man off the ground – a majority of his weight was probably still supported.
- There are the typical unbelievable claims. MLM companies have unbelievable for more than years.
- The claims appear to violate the FTC endorsement guidelines of “Using Testimonials That Don’t Reflect the Typical Consumer Experience.”
- The claims may also violate the FDA rules of marketing supplements. I do not believe that Le-Vel Thrive Patch is an FDA-approved treatment for anxiety. These types of claims have gotten other MLMs like DoTERRA in trouble with the FDA.
That’s just the stuff from the first quote block. The second quote block highlights the bad reputation Thrive has. The ensuing quote about it being “mind-over-matter” seems to suggest that the Thrive Patch may be the same as the Dove Beauty Patch:
If you intend to watch the video, do it now because I’m going to give some spoilers.
It turns out that the Dove Beauty Patch has no ingredients. Yet all the women were going on and on about how “life-altering” the patch was and that they’d buy it. You can see their reactions on the Today Show as well.
Thrive’s website about the patch says: “The DFT™ formula supports the metabolic rate, promoting clean and healthy weight management without aiding in muscle breakdown or deterioration – like a majority of weight loss products available.”
I’m curious what “dirty” weight management might be if the patch is about clean weight management. Nonetheless, the FTC makes it clear how they feel about weight loss patches:
“Lose weight with our miracle diet patch or cream! You’ve seen the ads for diet patches or creams that claim to melt away the pounds. Don’t believe them. There’s nothing you can wear or apply to your skin that will cause you to lose weight.”
So don’t take my word for it, take the FTC’s.
The same Thrive website says, “Our all natural nutritional formula, combined with our DFT™ delivery system, infuses the derma (skin) with a THRIVE Lifestyle Formula, different than the Capsule & Shake formula. The result is a time released delivery and absorption rate superior to most consumable products.”
However, according to this Wall Street Journal article, you can’t really know if a patch is working without well-designed clinical trials. From a logical standpoint, I know ketchup is getting in my system when I eat it. A ketchup patch? Well, my confidence level in that is close to zero.
Of course, the patch alone would be too easy. Thrive website says, “Individuals using the THRIVE Premium DFT™, in conjunction with THRIVE Premium Lifestyle Capsule™, THRIVE Premium Lifestyle Shake Mix™, and the THRIVE 8 Week Experience™, will experience ultra premium results, unrivaled in regards to Nutrition, Weight Management, and Fitness.”
So let’s look at the Thrive Capsule and Thrive Shake Mix
What is the THRIVE Premium Lifestyle Capsule™?
Le-vel’s website on THRIVE M (the men’s capsule) says, “THRIVE M is a premium formula and a premium approach to your daily lifestyle. Developed from years of experience, science, and perfecting, THRIVE M is the only premium lifestyle capsule of its kind.”
For those keeping track that’s SEVEN uses of the word “premium” in only THREE quoted sentences (going back to the last heading). Someone get Le-vel a thesaurus. It’s easy to call something premium, but that doesn’t make it so.
Thrive M is essentially a multivitamin with a proprietary blend of ingredients which you can see here. The vitamins and minerals are unexciting. With only 11 vitamins and minerals with an RDA daily value, you can do better with many other products. They don’t even put vitamin C or vitamin E in it. You can do much better with Kirkland Signature Daily Multi Vitamins & Minerals Tablets (which provides more than 100% of each).
How much does thrive cost?
That Kirkland vitamin & minerals above costs around 4 cents a pill (at the time of article publishing). For a full year it would cost around $14.60.
In sharp contrast, Thrive M – Premium Lifestyle Capsules Mens is on Amazon for $62.50 for a 30 day supply. It seems that Thrive M isn’t on Amazon anymore, but I had sseen Ebay listings at around the same price. However, it looks like Thrive M is gone from there too. At the $62.50 price, Thrive M – Premium Lifestyle Capsules Mens is about $2.08 a day or $760.42 a year. Update: It looks like some MLM distributors are selling Thrive M 2.0 at $74.00 which would cost more for a year.
(If you want a gender-specific brand of vitamins, you can get Solimo Women’s One Daily Multivitamin Multimineral and Solimo Men’s One Daily Multivitamin Multimineral for about the same 4-5 cents a pill.)
So it appears you can spend about $15/year for a complete multivitamin… or you can spend more than $750/year for an incomplete one (in my opinion).
Reflect on that for a moment. You can spend 50 times more money and get less value by going with Le-vel’s product.
To make matters worse, it is scientifically proven that vitamin and mineral supplements are unnecessary for the general population. See this scientific journal article: Enough Is Enough: Stop Wasting Money on Vitamin and Mineral Supplements. As the article notes, vitamin and mineral supplements could even be harmful. The science has gotten exhaustive and it increasingly says that most people shouldn’t be buying supplements.
A strong case could be made that you shouldn’t buy either product. However, if you are going to buy one, the choice should be very obvious. I’d rather spend $15 over $750 any day.
I’m not being entirely fair in this comparison. Thrive M has a proprietary blend in addition to vitamins and minerals. Actually, in fairness, the Kirkland vitamins do as well (Ginseng at least from the description).
The problem with proprietary blends is that you don’t know how much of what you are getting. This isn’t like the Colonel’s secret recipe or Coca-cola’s recipe that are meant to taste good. This is your health. You should know what you are paying for. However, even if you knew how much you were getting of the ingredients, they may not benefit you. I didn’t see much in the proprietary formula that had the science behind it to show the FDA it had real benefits. That’s a list of approved health claims from supplements.
What is the Thrive Premium Lifestyle Mix™?
The third product is the Thrive Shake Mix. It seems that every MLM/pyramid scheme needs to have a shake mix nowadays. I’ve covered a few with Beachbody’s Shakeology, One24’s NutraBurst, and ViSalus’ Vi-Shake.
Thrive’s marketing of the mix shouldn’t surprise anyone: “THRIVE Mix, combined daily with the THRIVE Capsules and DFT™, completes a premium lifestyle, and a premium you.” I guess they had a few more “premium” mentions in there to get off their chest.
Thrive seems to want you to buy all three products. Fortunately, the shake has many of the vitamins and minerals that were missing from the multivitamin above. Or should I say unfortunately because then you have to buy two products to make up the void in one… and you still aren’t getting much vitamin C and vitamin E.
On Amazon, Thrive Premium Shake Mix costs $45 for 16 servings. That’s $2.81 a serving. That’s really, really expensive for a shake. You could get Spiru-Tein Shake which is about a dollar a serving and has many, many glowing reviews. It might not seem like much, but it is the difference between spending more than $1000 a year on a shake or $350. How many other articles have you read today that saved you $650 a year?
MLMs love shakes and it is easy to understand why. Supplement protein, fiber, and multivitamins are extremely cheap. You can get 24 grams of protein with Optimum Nutrition Whey Protein. At $0.77 a serving and nearly 10,000 awesome reviews on Amazon it seems to be a great value… especially considering that Thrive only has 15 grams of protein. For fiber, you can buy this Benefiber (switch to the 500 gram size). At $20, you’ll get 500 servings of 3 grams of fiber (1500 grams total). The 5 grams of fiber in Thrive shakes would cost you 6.6 cents (we’ll round up to $0.07).
Finally, there’s Optimum Nutrition Opti-Men Supplement. I can currently buy 240 pills (80 servings) for $22.88 (my Subscribe and Save price) or $0.36 a serving. Opti-Men seems to blow away the vitamins and minerals in both of Thrive’s mix and the capsules put together. It even includes its own proprietary blend, just in case Thrive supporters wanted to play the card that there’s other stuff of value in the products.
Between the three products, you’d spend less than a dollar a day to replace about $5 a day of Thrive shake and capsules. That saves you around $1200 a year. Add in the savings of avoiding the patch and it’s nearly $2000 in your pocket every year!
What others are saying
In an effort to provide you with the best information, here are a couple of other sources worth reading.
Truth In Advertising
Truth in Advertising is one of my favorite websites because they, like me, highlight the bits of misleading marketing that consumers should be aware of. The non-profit is truly one of the great unbiased organizations out there looking out for consumers’ best interests.
They’ve twice written about Le-Vel Thrive and each is a great resource:
Registered Dietitian Abby Langer
Abby Langer writes a scathing review of Le-Vel. Here are some of the highlights:
“The greatest branding can’t hide a faulty product, even if you declare that product as ‘premium’… One thing I think you should know is that there has never been any research done to verify that THRIVE works… Wherever they came from, testimonials are really not worth the paper (or computer) they’re written on. What’s really worth something is some good solid research on the product. Search high and low, but you won’t find any on THRIVE. There is none…
I’m not sure what all natural, clean, and healthy weight management is, but congratulations to Thrive for using three huge, completely meaningless nutrition buzzwords in one paragraph! What a feat!…
So THRIVE’s claim is essentially meaningless…
I mean, if I was gullible and not well-versed in science, they might convince me to spend tons of money using this upselling, ‘go hard or go home’ tactic. But me being who I am, I just get a headache looking at the relentless ‘convince you to spend more and more of your money to get an even better result’ BS on the site.
Thrive’s Forslean® is basically a herb called Coleus Forskohlii, which has not been shown in any reputable studies to cause weight loss… What they’ve basically done is throw a bunch of ingredients together… But none of this evidence has been studied in trials using a patch delivery system. And neither has Thrive. Oh, I already said that. Just checking that you get that..no evidence!
The THRIVE shake is super low in calories and I can’t find anything in it of any value. What’s its purpose, anyway? I can’t figure it out. Eat real food.
There is really no compelling evidence that any of the ingredients in THRIVE cause weight loss.”
It’s tempting to quote the whole article, but I think this covers most of it sufficiently. I can see why Abby Langer writes for the Huffington Post with such great insight.
Iron Beaver Fitness
Iron Beaver Fitness writes: Scam DuJour: Thrive by Le-Vel. One of my favorite quotes is at the beginning when they quote Le-Vel’s website and come to the conclusion that the product is irrelevant:
“Le-Vel was created and envisioned with a greater purpose, a premium plan. This plan is not to create a product, or a product line, but to build a global brand, a new icon.” – Le-vel’s website (https://le-vel.com/brand/philosophy)
Le-Vel seems to have threatened them with a lawsuit for hosting images of the products’ ingredients. Clearly, an editorial is allowed to display such images by fair use, but it doesn’t stop Le-Vel from attempting to sue them.
Plant City Observer
Plant City Observer has an article on Le-Vel Thrive titled “Don’t waste your money on fitness fallacies.” Here are some notable quotes from sports editor Justin Kline:
“After spending part of my last summer in college convincing a roommate that his Vemma energy drinks were part of an illegal pyramid scheme (which was actually proven to be true last year), I thought I was in the clear. But on Friday, a good friend hit me up about some energy patches… A quick Google search will tell you that these patches are part of the THRIVE eight-week fitness system, an initiative of the Le-Vel company. And a quick look at the Le-Vel website shows that it’s a similar kind of multi-level marketing company that Vemma was sold through.
Add in the fact that you’re buying products for yourself, as well as to sell to others, and that these companies often ask you to travel and buy tickets to conferences, and you could easily end up losing more money than you make.
But, this isn’t a business column. The other reason I can’t stand things like this is because the science behind them often disproves them. Essentially, there’s a chance that you’re losing money on simple bandage patches, glorified Saran wrap and smoothies you could make from the grass in your back yard.”
Recent MLM Developments You Should Know (Update 4/10/2017*)
I believe that anyone considering a “business opportunity”, should spend a few hours of research. I think these are two great areas to research:
1. Must Watch: A Humorous, Detailed Analysis on MLM
HBO’s John Oliver covers MLM in great detail.
In my opinion, it’s a tremendous read for any potential customers, but I believe no one should be allowed to sign up as a distributor without viewing this video and signing a disclosure form that they did:
There’s a specific Le-Vel mention in that video. I don’t think you want to miss it.
(Full Disclosure: I wrote this article long before HBO decided to cover Le-Vel. HBO’s and their shows’ network’s opinions are obviously their own, but I do agree with the video cited here.)
Another view of the FTC on MLMs
The FTC Chairwoman recently gave some guidance to MLMs. I think it’s important information for anyone considering joining an MLM. View the FTC guidance here. It is a little technical because I believe the audience is MLM companies.
I believe you should ask any sponsor to provide you with a written statement on how that company complies with the FTC guidance. I don’t believe it should come from a sponsor unless it is officially endorsed by the MLM company and the exact language is clearly disclosed on their website. A salesman trying to get you to join may say that they are clearly in compliance with that guidance, but I believe you should have the whole company agreeing to the FTC guidance.
If the company (as opposed to a distributor) doesn’t state a notice of compliance in prominent view with that FTC guidance, I would personally walk away.
But What About the Business of Le-Vel?
Le-vel has a “refer 2 and you get yours for free” program. Given the financial information above, it seems to me that it is like convincing two people to buy a Honda Civic for $100,000 so that you can yours for free. Any company would happily do that because they are sending out $60K worth of cars to bring in $200,000 in cash.
This encourages people to throw two people under the bus financially to get free products for themselves. I think that’s pretty selfish.
These kinds of programs highlight how overpriced the products are. Obviously, the company couldn’t stay in business giving it away for free.
The rest of the Le-vel compensation plan looks like every other MLM/pyramid scheme that I’ve covered. There’s the requirement to be Qualified and Active, which means that you have to buy the product yourself or sell enough of it each month. As mentioned above, the pricing is banana pants crazy, which is one of a few reasons why no one would buy a MLM product from you. That means you are typically going to be left paying for itself, which makes it look like a Pay-to-Play scheme.
Le-vel seems to have the same car “bonus” as other MLMs. The specifics of the car bonus are left out of the compensation brochure. Typically an MLM company requires you to get a lease in your name and reimburses you as long as you maintain the level. However, as many ViSalus distributors found out, when the pyramid implodes they are left with an expensive lease in their name, no bonus from the company, and little income from the business. It’s a path to financial ruin
However, the most insane part of the Le-vel “reward” plan is the Waiting Room which you can find at the bottom of this PDF. You can place newly recruited people under other people you have recruited in the past. This is the kind of thing that only makes sense in the world of MLM.
If you recruit a person, they should go under you. You should get the rewards for that work. It simply doesn’t make sense to give away those rewards to someone else. Thrive’s brochure is extremely lacking in details (as you can see), and it wastes value space with women in bikinis, beaches, hot air balloons, etc. Instead the Rewards Plan suggests that this Waiting Room concept allows for “very strategic team building.” (Tip: whenever you see “team” in MLM, substitute the words “pyramid” to describe the recruitment hierarchy.)
The compensation plan clearly focuses the rewards on people with the most volume in their downline, not sales to outside people. According to these FTC guidelines, that focus would appear to make Thrive a pyramid scheme. Here’s what the FTC says,
“Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money.”
If you need more information on this, this video is very helpful:
Le-Vel Manufacturing Facebook Popularity?
One of the things that most people seem to complain about is how overzealous Le-Vel distributors flood their Facebook. It’s one thing if people are genuinely interested and sharing a product they love. It’s another thing when they coordinate all their distributors to flood Facebook all at once.
Someone passed along their “Rise and Thrive” attempt coming on Dec. 10th at 8AM CST. See this:
(Click For Larger Version)
Of course the Le-Vel leaders want to keep this very quite so that it seems like it is naturally going viral. Overall, it’s pretty harmless, but I’m not a fan of secret cult manipulations.
Final Thoughts on Le-Vel Thrive
Between the extremely expensive products, dubious marketing, and what appears to be a pyramid scheme (see aforementioned FTC guidelines), I think it is clear that Le-vel Thrive is a scam. (For more on scams see: What is a Scam Anyway?)
I think consumers should make better use of $2000 or more a year… and certainly shouldn’t push others to spend that kind of money. Don’t try to convince yourself that a pyramid scheme is a legitimate business. Don’t try to convince yourself that you are helping people by inflicting a significant financial burden on them. If you are really interested in helping them, suggest some of the products that I mentioned in the article (or other equivalent ones from non-pyramid scheme companies) that are reasonably priced.
Finally, I’d like to make a special pleading for the FTC (SEC or other government agency) to look into Le-Vel and ensure all its practices are legal. In my opinion, they should have a statement page stating how they comply with with this FTC guidance. In the past I’ve found that the FTC simply works too slow in catching MLM/pyramid scheme fraud. For example, it took a decade and millions of lost dollars for the FTC to catch Fortune High-Tech’s MLM pyramid scheme. More recently it took nearly a decade for the FTC to halt Vemma for being a pyramid scheme which claimed to be a legal MLM. Finally, it took decades for the FTC to help Herbalife victims.
In each case, consumers found out years later that they were scammed out of hundreds millions of dollars (in aggregate). I agree with Former FTC Economist Peter Vander Nat, Ph.D. in calling for a federal pyramid scheme rule as the status quo is not effective in eliminating pyramid schemes. The damage is already done.
Consumers can and should in my opinion make a complaint with the FTC here.
Lawyer Stuff: Regarding Updates (Added 4/10/2017)
It’s disappointing to me that I have to cover my butt with disclaimers. I believe we (USA) have freedom of speech and freedom of the press.
The courts agreed that I published this article for you (at least in my reading.)
I STRONGLY IMPORE everyone to petition the government with your feelings about this as I have done. The official FTC Twitter account has instructions about how you can communicate your opinion of scams and help others avoid being scammed:
If you think you see a scam, talk with someone. Your story could help someone avoid that scam. Then report it to the FTC at https://t.co/gtPxXAxsek: https://t.co/PWFawyXejS
— FTC (@FTC) May 20, 2020
This article was originally published on June 26, 2015 (or earlier). It contains the best information I found at the time of publication. If anyone has factual information where I may be incorrect in my OPINION above, they are welcome to leave a comment for my own and public review. Readers with different opinions are always free to publicize those opinions elsewhere.
I strive to update this article, and all my articles, with the best information available to help consumers make an informed decision. I may not always achieve that goal due my other career and family obligations, but I do my best. If I’ve been informed publicly (such as Twitter) multiple times over 1-3 months it will probably get my attention. One easier way is to leave a comment.
Just to make it extremely clear to readers and MLM lawyers looking to sue me, the article above is my constitutionally protected opinion. It’s strange that I have to say it and cite the FTC above, but some lawyers act badly when they are offered a bunch of money by a company looking to bully a military family.
This was article originally published Jun 26, 2015 at 11:00
Great write up!
Well, well, well. So now you are attacking Le-Vel. I’ve seen your blogs before and it’s no surprise to see what you have written here, lazy man. Your blog title totally fits your argument and research: lazy. I find it curious that your business plan is to generate web traffic and income by using the word “scam” attached to the names of many reputable network marketing companies and attacking them online over time. And then of course, friends reading this, there is the fact that lazyman advertises or allow others to market / sell supplements on the blog. Hmmmm…
So basically, lazy man, what you are saying is that ALL supplements are created equal?
Synthetics vs Bio-Available Raws?
Animal grade, cosmetic grade and premium grade / 3rd party validated are all equal?
Anyone knows that the sourcing of any nutritional product is key. As is absorption / bioavailabity. The concept of filling in nutritional gaps to allow the body to function at a peak state makes sense and is at the core of functional and integrative medicine. Do pre and probiotics really have no value in your eyes? Trace minerals? Enzymes? Really… Lazy.
As far as the business model, Le-Vel.com is a FREE social business network with over 2 Million free accounts in 3 years – and it will be a Billion $ Lifestyle Brand in the near future. The cloud-based platform / model allows Le-Vel to spend more money on nutritional raws than any other company in the wellness industry, offering the consumer a premium lifestyle product unlike any other.
For those of you who think it’s expensive to invest in quality food or supplements, like lazy man, go ahead and keep taking your synthetic vitamins and minerals, eating sugary snacks, empty carbs, drinking coffee and/or energy drinks (which probably cost you more than the $5-6 a day you would spend on the Thrive Experience) to just get by every day.
As for me, I KNOW what Thrive has done for my mind, body and soul – and I’ve been taking it for FREE for 17 out of the last 18 months + helping others live better and thrive for free too. And yes, I am a top ranking Le-Vel Brand Promoter helping other people build online, thriving, mobile businesses from the cloud, sharing stories of health and success through social media and my smart phone.
Kary Kruger,
Yes, you probably saw my blogs from when you marketed LifeVantage products. How is the stock price doing with them? Oh it’s down some 75-80%? At least the executives stayed to right the ship? Oh no, almost all of them left.
You can call it an attack, but I call it consumer protection. With an annual churn rate of 92-95%, LifeVantage clearly isn’t a sustainable business without constant recruiting. So yeah, they deserved being “attacked” especially because they claimed McCord created Protandim, but filed with the SEC that Myhill and Driscoll were the inventors.
If you think my research is lazy, perhaps you should give a read to that LifeVantage article again. The most common complaint I get about it is that there is too much research to read quickly.
I have yet to find a single reputable MLM company. Don’t get confused by calling them networking marketing… that’s what ABC, CBS, and NBC do with their commercial space… it isn’t MLM, which is very, very different. MLMers created the terms “network marketing” and “direct sales” to confuse people about what it really is.
For what it is worth, my business model is to write about personal finance. It was very, very successful before I encountered MLM. Spending time on MLM limits my ability to write articles for intelligent people like I wish to do. I also don’t choose advertisements for supplements on this blog. They are provided by third parties such as Google AdWords. If I write an article about supplements, Google is naturally going to match with supplement companies paying for marketing on such pages. If I write about an Apple iPad, there may be ads for Android tablets. Welcome to how advertising works on the internet. Again, this is how my blog has been designed since long before I wrote about MLM.
I didn’t say that ALL supplements are created equal. If you were really familiar with my blogs, you’d know that I differentiate 3rd party USP Verified from other vitamins. Fortunately many complete multi-vitamins are very inexpensive.
We can only discuss bio-availability if we have data to compare. I have not seen data of the bio-availability of Le-vel’s supplements. Can you provide it, with a comparison to a group of other leading brands? If not, we should conclude the discussion until such data is available. Everyone can claim their favorite vitamin is the most bio-available. Even if one brand is twice as bio-available, if it is priced at 50x more, it has lost the debate.
I wouldn’t care about the FREE social business network of Le-Vel.com, maybe you’ve heard of LinkedIn? It has a many millions of more people and is worth $24 Billion dollars. Instagram sold for a billion dollars and clearly that’s much more popular and well known that Le-Vel.com. Many companies that sell on Amazon/Wal-Mart/etc. are more efficient than the cloud-based platform that you talk about. In fact Amazon is one of the biggest cloud-platform companies in the country.
While it can be expensive to invest in qualify food and supplements, I have to see proof of the quality that is beyond price tag. Quantify and show me why it is premium and I may decide it is worth a premium. I probably won’t pay 50x as much like the Le-vel example I showed. I love avocados, but I’m fine with the ones that are $1… don’t try to sell me on a $50 avocado, which is what you are trying to justify here. Please use a little common sense… or I’ll sell you $50 avocados all day. I promise they are of premium quality.
The fact that you’ve been taking the product “FREE” while others are paying 50x more than other competing brands should clue you in. It’s a time-tested definition of a pyramid scheme. Perhaps you should be less selfish and demand that they don’t give out free product that comes from price-gouging the people at the bottom.
Excellent article! Thank you for putting this information out there!!!
Lost 9 Lbs in 12 days!!! I didn’t change my eating habits or increase my exercise. I am a mother who works full time and at the end of the day I still have energy to spare. Since I started taking this product I have never felt so alive. These are all of the benefits that I have experienced since starting my Thrive 8 week experience: energy increase (and not the jittery kind), weight loss without even trying, I feel less hungry during the day, mental clarity, overall happy feeling all the time, Pain relief from fibromyalgia, deeper more relaxed sleep and the list goes on and on. If you would like to experience some of these benefits and so much more please email me at [Editor’s Note: email removed – not the place to market yourself] and I will help get you started!!!!
So today I just finished my 3-day $20 trial of Thrive….. didn’t feel A DAMN THING! No difference in anything, neither did my neighbor across the street. We decided to give it a go since a neighbor down the street started the Thrive bandwagon and another friend who is a realist was impressed and sold after his first day trial.
First day- One pill, shake, and patch. Second day- Two pills, patch. Third day- One pill, patch.
The only thing I felt the first day was twenty minutes after I put the patch on- I could all of the sudden feel exactly where it was and my fingers got a tingly sensation for a minute. It was like the firework you wait to go off and it sizzles into the dud it was before your eyes.
I was open minded…. kept my expectations lower, but if I was putting all these great vitamins in my system that I don’t get every day- I should absolutely be feeling something- especially with all of the INCREDIBLE testimonies that are out there!
Well friends……. it just didn’t work for me. I’ll stick to trying to exercise when I can and try to avoid eating fast food as much as I can- I feel better that route than this.
That’s strange that you say that about the LifeVantage corporate executives leaving. I heard there is a movement among some of the biggest names at this company and some of the owners, not all, to get out while the company is still growing. That could be just a rumor but if they do start to bail I think it would hurt the people who are putting their heart and soul into sharing this experience with everyone they meet.
LifeVantage stopped growing years ago. It’s publicly traded, so you can go look at the numbers with their filing with the FTC.
i have tried Le-vel Thrive x8 weeks. NOTHING
was told need stronger patch. Ok more money. NOTHING.
All these testimonies of energy etc. NOTHING
I EVEN BECAME DEPRESSED ON THEIR NEW Black patch.
My opinion. Pyramid.
Fantastic article, as well as rebuttal to kary. I almost choked on my premium bagel. I don’t have the heart to link your well worded teardown to the person who inspired my Google query…
Do you have any thoughts about Nature’s Sunshine?
I haven’t looked into them.
Okay, I spent a few seconds looking at Nature’s Sunshine and the first thing I saw is that they use something called Zyto Compass. Again, in just a few seconds it was easy to find letter from the FDA with a mile long of violations by Zyto: http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/ucm446687.htm. That was back in May, so this is all very new stuff. Again, do much more research on this, but this doesn’t look good at all.
Not sure what ZYTO compass is? Can you explain? I’ve used nature’s sunshine supplements but never heard of that. Would I know if someone was using it?
Wait… I did a quick google.. saw one Nature’s sunshine distributor that “uses” it… I’ve never seen one, so my distributor doesn’t use it. Maybe it’s individuals? Wonder if the company encourages it. just asking questions…
I actually started a 30 day trial with Thrive… can’t wait to see if I get any results… I’ll try to come back and post.
Thank you for this post, it was very informative and answered all of the questions that I had about this. A colleague is trying to get me roped into this because she claims that it cured her chronic fatigue syndrome. But I had concerns as a practitioner, mostly that it seems that all of the results are gained through giving people adrenalin-inducing vitamin/herb/amino acids. It basically appears to be herbal speed that costs a hell of a lot of money. And I am always turned off by MLMs since I have yet to be exposed to one that was not a pyramid scheme.
Thank you for this!!
I only wish I’d seen it earlier, before I sunk 2600 back in 2009 in an effort to be my own boss.. well that worked out so well for me. Now I have friends trying to rope me into thrive, ameo and something called zija… and there’s only so many ways you can politely say no thank you to your friends.
Not all supplements are created equal, and not all multi-level marketing companies are created equal. So if you really want to protect consumers, please don’t push your blanket opinion on everyone. MLMs are a legitimate way for many people to make income from home; however it is true that there have been some disreputable companies in the past that have shone a bad light on the rest of us. I am not a Thrive “promoter” but I am a distributor to another MLM, and it is not any more of a pyramid scheme than working for a coporation (notice the chain of command looks like a pyramid?) Anyway, if you want to address a company, be objective, and don’t bait people into an article with the purpose of promoting your own crap.
For the most part supplements are more or less equal. Vitamin C molecules are vitamin C molecules. The cases where they are not equal are when companies don’t put in the product what they put in the label.
If you think a particular supplement is better than another particular supplement, please provide proof in large-scale, properly blinded trials. Without this, it is like suggesting that some toast is better than other toast. That’s fine, but at the end of the day, it is still toast and behaves like all toast that has been covered in history. Keep in mind that vitamins have been about as effective as toast and you shouldn’t waste money on them.
This isn’t a blanket opinion about supplements any more than it is a blanket opinion about toast.
I’ve covered dozens of MLMs in detail and haven’t come across a single legitimate one. In fact, I’ve cited many sources that show they aren’t mathematically legitimate. It isn’t a case where there are some bad apples, but that there appear to be ZERO GOOD apples.
Corporate America is Not a Pyramid Scheme. Don’t confuse the chain of command, a heirarchical organization that doesn’t rely on recruiting with pyramid schemes that rely on unsustainable recruiting.
I’ve been objective. You haven’t because you purposely spread a deceptive falsehood about pyramid schemes. I don’t promote my own crap. I don’t produce or sell a product of any kind (except for the free information here.)
Hi –
I was recently at a “local” Le-Vel even in Kansas City. The owner/founder/CEO (and whatever other titles he has) was there. He had this nervous twitch he did every few minutes where he jerked his head to the side and it seemed somewhat natural or uncontrollable. Maybe he has taken too much of his own product.
Also, there were many prospective customers/promoters there (people like me) and I caught up with one other prospect, we both had the same impression, this felt like a cult. These people are literally drinking, snorting, inhaling the kool-aid and are not willing to address any real questions about their product or system.
For instance:
1) Why do all of these scam company manufacture in Utah where the restrictions are the lightest on what goes into supplements? IF these are premium grade, then why manufacture where the rules are the easiest?
2) Why is there no corporate office or customer service phone number? They say the pump the extra money back into the company instead of spending it on overhead, but the high level rep that recruited me said she is going on a private plane to Cabo with the management team later this year – seems like that money that should be spent on making it a legit company is spent on things like private planes, etc. I could be wrong, but this is my view.
3) I heard rumors there could be some sort of bail out by the top reps and owners where they would sell out or leave to another brand. I asked someone about this and was told I was out of my mind.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head regarding a handful of their biggest flaws.
I’m in the health-care/medical field and have an extensive background in human physiology and nutrition. When a colleague pitched me on Thrive, via FB, I tried to look into exactly what it was, exactly what was in each pill and what it claimed to do. What I kept bumping up against was this proprietary information about the patch and its “delivery system”.
When I asked specific questions like “what is the exact purpose, physiologically speaking, for each supplement” I could not get an actual scientific answer. Just jargon about how it enhances your metabolism and how there is nothing else like it on the market.
It appears that much of its effect comes from garcinia, an herb with stimulant effects. There are also other ingredients that have an adrenalin-inducing effect. I jokingly call it herbal speed since it appears to be having a speed-like effect on those who say it works for them. (As evidenced by appetite suppression, weight loss, decreased need for sleep, higher energy levels and improved mood. All of these things can be attributed to increased adrenalin and nor-adrenalin.
There are much cheaper ways of jacking up your stress hormones and taking vitamins.
If this product was being sold in another fashion, like say OTC at gas stations like 5- hour energy, then I would be more inclined to try it. The fact that it is being sold in pretty much a criminal fashion (since pyramid schemes are illegal) makes me 100% uninterested. Ok, 99% uninterested. I admit that I would like to try it for a few weeks so that I can say for sure if it is just herbal speed.
God I hate people like you! Jealous of another person’s accomplishments so let’s beat it to hell! Let me tell you something I have been taking this for a few weeks now and the biggest indicator my body is absorbing the vitamins? MY URINE IS NOT MARTIAN YELLOW! Try any other vitamin out there and it will do that…no Thrive. Also I never felt better in my life oh but never its a scam it has to be boo hoo…get a real job!
So you are saying that you believe Thrive is working because it DOESN’T have excess Riboflavin (B2).
“God I hate people like you” who can’t do 30 seconds of research before flying off the handle.
If you had spent a little more time reading the nearly 2000 articles I’ve written here, I praise the accomplishments of others. I simply don’t see scamming people out of their hard-earned money as an “accomplishment.”
I’m pretty sure that working for a pyramid scheme (also know as multi level marketing) is the antithesis of having “a real job”. Perhaps you were giving that advice to yourself?
I agree with your article. From what I’ve read it seems like most of the hate in the comments are from Thrive pushers. Keep up the good work and don’t let the sheep from Thrive discourage you at all.
Bravo Lazy Man!
Standing in the line of fire and getting hit with bullets of ignorance from people who don’t have a clue about nutrition and exercise, is definately a thankless job and as far as real goes…well that’s relative to ones own perception of what real actually is in relation to the human condition. Maybe someday when they come to their senses they will thank you for rubbing their ignorance in the science based facts that support what is true about a thing, such as asorbic acid is asorbic acid is Vitamin C.
Thought I’d come back and update. I took the capsules for women for 7 days, drank the shake, and wore the patch. By 5 days in my ragweed allergies were killing me, or so I thought… After being sick with allergies and sleeping excessive amounts of time… I started reading ALL the ingredients… shake and patch are fine… But near the bottom of the capsules box, in small print, was “Product contains shellfish” Guess who is allergic to shellfish? yep.. that’s me…
So yes, I should’ve read All the small print, but shouldn’t something like that, that can cause death in some, be more prominent?? Just like peanuts, milk, soy, etc?
Oh, and why does a nutritional supplement contain shellfish?
I’m going back to my Nature’s Sunshine thats been in business for over 40 years, and has some quality control, for my supplements. Bye bye Thrive
“So yes, I should’ve read All the small print, but shouldn’t something like that, that can cause death in some, be more prominent??”
Yes, but MLM supplement companies don’t give a fig about things like transparency or public health. They’d feed you dog $hit and tell you it’s a cure for cancer without losing a night’s sleep over it, as long as the checks keep rolling in. That’s how they roll.
I have been using thrive for 4 weeks the first week was great had lots of energy. Then I started noticing that I was having more muscle pain and one of my shakes had sand like material in it gritty and brown not like rest of my shakes. I have not lost any weight and have quit taking thrive after the sand like grit in shake and my muscles are not hurting as much in 3 days off thrive. Kind of makes you wonder what is in thrive and were is it being made. No wonder there is an FDA .
I appreciate your review, after trying Thrive for abour two months, the first one was the sample and it was free, At the urging of a new Friend and also a promoter, I ordered a month of the program. Bad idea, after I put in the order and saw how much the final cost was, it was too late to back out. I wish I would of seen your review before. As in the trial, the shakes taste gross, I tried the suggestions of almond milk (additional expense ) and fruit, a bit better but not much, still grainy and has a funky after taste. The patches are leaving small rashes wherever I place them. The vitamin packages are about the only thing that I Didn’t have an issue with. But the price. Thankfully I don’t think they auto ship. So I won’t order again. I’m going to try another product that is less costly.
I saw the comment about the shake having some weird substance in it, and it reminded me, once I opened one of their shakes and found a chunk of grey rubber in the packet. It was about the size of a dime. I quit using the shakes.
Someone needs to do a study on a large sample of these products.
Dear lazy man,The use of the worpremium which clearly annoys,is a shorter way To say pharmaceutical grade vitamins.Which,if you’d done your homework, you would know,is what le-vel uses.And the comparison Vitamins you named?Well,there’s no comparison. If you require the link for the definition,I’llbe happy to supplyt you with it. Say what you will about the product Thrive.But placebo?Lol. Iwish.I’ve suffered from serious depression,cognitive issues that have brought my career to haltand tried everything there is that I’ve been able to get my hands on both natural and medicinal and on seven years,NOTHING had helped. I held out no real hope that this would be any different, . Ithankthe Lordthat I’d been given asample as Iwas lucky and felt it almost immediately,not everyone does.It’s designed totakeright weeks to fill in your nutritional gaps,detox and get your mind,body and digestioamong many other benefits.You talk about priceand how it’s a rip off.The vitamins that can’t compete which you speak of do nothing for the body,because of their low quality and flush out if you drink to much water. Quite the opposite with THRIVE. There is scientific proud of the dft patchand how it works,my brother is a scientistpreviously with to level security clearance at Lockheed Martin,and is himself experiencing incredible resultsand his already amazing body is running even better from workouts as his muscles are gtg what they need to work more effectively for better results.
Icould go on,but agourmet cup of coffee a day and smoothie cost morethan this,as well as I’d tried every product available for my hair which I’d always list incredible amounts every day,luckily it’s relatively thick but washing ithad begun bumming me out. I’d never believed that after fourdays,and four months later, I barely seetentotwelve pieces of hair in the shower now after washing it daily our every other.It’s gotten incredibly thick and shiny again and my always thin brittle nailsare also strong and growing longer.
Ican understand how you could think it cult like how everyone taking this is so upbeat excited and energetic,it’s kind of scary,lol,but it’s true,the way we feel is amazing and yes, we want to share that feeling with everyone!How could we not? Also,the compensation is not as you’ve stated,like a pyramid,buthey,you want to see it that way,it just plain isn’t.Le-velis extremely serious aboucompliance,their reputation and helping others achieve success in all areas.Before you review something, Ibelieve that anyone,youmewhoever,should really investigate by trying whatever the product for the recommended time and taken exactly as recommended by yourpromoter.Then,share your experience.Otherwiseyou are potentially causing others to keep from trying something amazing that could change their life,even save it,as it has me and mine.This once severely depressed person,clinically,who want excited about life and couldn’t find the energy to complain,who was never amorning person..is waking up without my alarm before eight and hitting the ground running,back working again,my marriage had been saved as my husband loves mebut Ihadn’t realized what he’d had to deal withprior and this is the talk deal.Let others decide for themselves.
Morgan,
It is hard to take your comment seriously when every sentence seems to have extensive typos. I’m sure my article above is not perfect, but I don’t think I tried to create words like “worpremium”, “digestioamong”, and “seetentotwelve” to name just a few.
I don’t want to pick on you too much because you mention having cognitive issues. However, since you threw the first stone in saying that I didn’t do my homework, I feel it is fair game.
You can get vitamins that are independently verified by USP (United States Pharmacopeia) as using pharmaceutical-grade ingredients. Here is some information on that. Most of the vitamins you’ll find on store shelves have this verification… even the very cheap ones. Since most everyone uses the same grade, there’s no reason to place any emphasis on Le-vel’s version.
It is an apple to apple comparison and they are the same. The vitamin C molecules are going to be the same. If Le-vel wants to say they invented a newer, better vitamin C molecule that’s what they need to prove to scientists. They don’t seem to be making those claims though.
In short, You are only getting lost because one company is attempting to use the “pharmaceutical grade” marketing term that the other products have as well.
There is a large myth that “other” vitamins are of low quality and get flushed out if you drink water. It simply isn’t true. The test of quality is the USP Verification and the other vitamins have that. Numerous scientific tests have been done on millions on people and they’ve concluded that supplements are a waste of money. Again, that’s science. They aren’t using low-quality vitamins in these studies that can cost a lot of money to run.
If you say you have cognitive issues, shouldn’t you trust thousands of scientists who have done hundreds of studies on millions of people?
Coffee and smoothies do not cost as much as Le-vel products. I make both in my kitchen very cheaply every day. You are comparing the restaurant mark-up price of different products to the price of a vitamin. It’s like comparing the price of a steak at a steakhouse to the cost of a cup of milk at home. One might be over $50 and the other might under 50 cents. What’s the point in making the comparison?
The same people cult people sharing their excitement happened the same thing with a juice called MonaVie that I wrote about 8 years ago. Today, the pyramid scheme has collapsed and the company had to sell off everything for pennies on the dollar. Court documents revealed that the inventor of the juice called it, “expensive, flavored water.” They used every psychology trick in the book to get people who aren’t smart enough to realize they were doing it.
If Le-vel doesn’t want to be seen as a pyramid scheme, they shouldn’t set themselves up to look like one. It is as simple that.
This scam of a company needs to be taken down. Here is how we do it.
1) Go to the FTC website and report them as a pyramid scheme that produces products that are not only falsely advertised, but it is part of a ponzi scheme.
Website: https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov
2) When you go to the website above, you must select “Other” and then when you get into that sub-section, you chose “Health and Fitness”. From that point on, the form and the complaint process is self explanatory.
These guys are definitely frauds, just google the name of the company or the co-founders and the word Fraud and see what comes up from their past. If you try at all, you can uncover what is going on here pretty easily.
I wish that worked Allison. I had been asking people to do that for MLMs for around 5 years now.
It can’t hurt, but I haven’t found it to be useful either. It’s not like the FTC gets back to you. For all I can tell, the comments are quickly deleted never to be seen by human eyes.
Just discovered you thanks to a search to learn more about Thrive, and I’m adding you to my bookmarks. Keep up the good work!!! And I have to say that your replies to comments are spot on, and are also worth reading. Thank you!!
Futur3that, I’m with you on not having the heart to share with the friend that inspired my search, but at the same time, I think withholding makes me less of a friend so I’ll pass it on to her. (And I giggled at the mention of your premium bagel)
Thank you Gwen. You should see the comments on my other MLM articles. A couple of articles have 4000 or 6000 comments on them. Entertainment for years. I have some people who just subscribe to the comments to see what crazy things the MLM nuts are going to say.
I have a former friend who is selling this on Faceboook and all other forms of her social media. Let me rephrase that…she is ‘pushing’ this B.S. onto her ‘friends’ list on a daily basis. She is telling people she has lost weight, feels amazing, it’s a ‘lifechanger’…etc. I’m sure you all have seen the same types of posts. Anyway, what she isn’t telling anyone is that she is still fat, still tired all the time, has become ill the last few months, and that she really just needs people to sign up to sell this stuff so she can get rid of the product she is left with at her house. What these people don’t tell you is that it is nearly impossible to turn off the auto-shipments (which are required by the way when you ‘sign up for free’), and that there is no customer service phone number. Yup. you read that right. you have to login to their web portal to file any kind of claim about wanting a refund or to return your products. In addition, if you question anyone who is selling this stuff (And trust me, everyone who is using it is now selling it) they verbally attack you. They claim there is no caffeine in the Thrive products. All you have to do is google the ingredients to find out this isn’t true. They claim they have ‘replaced starbuck’s’ and no longer crave soda. Um..that’s because you are wearing a caffeine/speed patch on your arm. And p.s. YOU LOOK RIDICULOUS WITH A PATCH ON YOUR ARM. I had to not only unfollow this person’s social media feed, but had to distance myself from them in actual life. The ‘thrivers’ as they call themselves in their creepy thrive cult are almost like Scientologists. Disagree with them, and you are cut off. They won’t post anything on their pages. when people say “how much does it cost? they say “message me for details”…etc. It’s all very shady. What gets me is that these people KNOW it is B.S. yet they have no problem/conscience/moral compass with passing it on to friends and family members to get them in the same financial hole they will soon find themselves in. To me – no different than a Ponzi scheme except with Thrive you are stuck with boxes of useless powder, obnoxious body stickers and ‘pills’. The hashtags are also incessantly irritating. #thrive #thriveforlife #thrivers UGH. And has anyone else noticed that everyone who sells Thrive is FAT AND UNHEALTHY?? Ok rant over. I am so glad I found this blog though. There is a sucker born every minute. A true shame.
Seriously ?? Who judges someone by typos??? Maybe they have a sh**ty phone? This isnt an essay to get into f**king Harvard asshole.
I don’t see anyone mentioning typos. This was a well-written criticism that you didn’t seem to refute to at all.
Right on, thanks for this info. Getting so tired of seeing f.book peeps trying to sell this kind of rubbish! Now I can help pull out the imaginary bricks of another pyramid scam. :)
New friend who helped me sign up to order Thrive pur me on auto ship. Did not realize this till I saw my Visa bill. During that time I tried this stuff for a month, and decided to just, maybe get the vitamin pills. Told them to take me off auto ship. Got a snark remark back stating my shipment is already on its way. If I return it, it will be a ten percent restocking fee. I told them to take me off autoship. If they Don’t I am calling the credit card company, the BBB, and the FTC. Can’t wait to see what their reply is. Also sick of seeing posts on my Facebook about it from my new friend. Also sick of hearing about it. Realize she’s gonna loose friends if she doesn’t back off about it. She was even trying to push it on my teenage kids.
My dear Lazyman,
I just discovered you and well…. I’m in love!!!!
Keep up the good work and the awesome rebuttals ?
#wordpremium
Look at the following links that can tell you a lot about these guys, their history and their past failures which shows me this is the same thing they have done in the past, which has failed, but now they have a new logo on it and some how the pyramid is working, for now! This will come crumbling down when someone really looks into it just like it has for these guys in the past.
http://rushprnews.com/2011/12/31/jason-camper-launches-powdremix
Some interesting ripoff reports on the owners and the company too:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Le-Vel-Thrive/nationwide/Le-Vel-Thrive-Premium-lifestyle-produts-line-Frisco-Texas-Nationwide-1254544
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Company-X-Jason-Camper/Irving-Texas-75039/Company-X-Jason-Camper-Acquire-Company-X-is-a-Scam-Credit-Card-Fraud-this-is-the-461863
There was some commentary above and on another blog about the company not having a mailing address. If you research the ownership, the LLC used to control the business, etc. the following addresses come up. One address is a “Goin’ Postal” store which must just house the P.O. Box the Company is registered to, which is weird to me and the other addresses are residential addresses.
Mailbox site:
9201 Warren Parkway, Suite 200 Frisco TX
Residential Addresses:
6542 Gerrard St Frisco, TX 75034
391 Las Colinas Blvd E Irving, TX 75039
I would be curious to know what is at these sites but I don’t live anywhere near Texas.
Thanks for the information and I do agree with you.
I am a very active 66 yr old who was wondering about the hype my friend keeps posting about on FB. People say they can’t keep up with me and wonder what I take to keep my energy level up. Multi Vit and I eat what I want but in moderate portions. Also, I have good genes coming from longevity in my family history (which I believe is 85% of my life the way it is now!) Also, I need to point out, I am not on any prescribed medication! After having to many side effects, I decided 10 years ago not to take anymore, and stopped them. I’m still living and having a great time as of this writing.
I think I will unfollow my friend, as I am tired of seeing this pop up on my feed. She needs to try a different marketing gimmick that will work for her. I never see anyone comment or like any of those advertising posts!
Thanks again for letting me in on this crazy stuff.
You sir are pathetic. You do realize that they’ve come to find out most of the supplements you find on shelves nowadays are actually cut with nothing the product says the ingredients are. How can 500,000+ people that take thrive and says it’s changed their life be wrong? I feel as though your some lazy man 40 year old sitting in their moms basement typing up nonsense that you think you’re an expert in. It’s sad.
I was a skeptic as well and have used thrive for a long time. It works. Otherwise people wouldn’t buy it. So there’s a few people that got side effects from it? So what? Every supplement or anything that someone puts in their body will not act the same for the next man or woman. I mean really? Are you that ignorant? And to the person who said they got allergies and then saw it contained shellfish. Then complained about it? Get some glasses or actually read before you put something new into your body idiot. That’s your own dumb fault.
And I really have no respect for people like you that don’t know the meanings of words. You just make yourself look ignorant and unintelligent. A pyramid scheme is a business that promises you product and advancement if you buy and sell their products… The scheme part is when you put in the money and get nothing in return. You see, lazy man… Your name really holds you to being lazy, thrive has helped hundreds of thousands of people with product that works and money that they can live off of without a 9-5.
Le-vel does the vacation getaways because it’s a family and it’s nice to have an all paid vacation to see your thrive friends. It’s also something that is earned for your hard work.
No product is an overnight fix. No mlm is an overnight fix. You still put time and work into it. It’s a business not a lottery.
They don’t say, ” here, put this patch on and you’ll lose tons of weight instantly!” It’s supposed to help you along with diet and exercise. So go ahead and pump yourself full of chemical fat burners if your looking for the fastest unhealthy way to lose weight. Don’t cry to me when you’re taking a healthy all natural plant based product and then sit on your ass complaining it did t do anything.
You disgust me with your lack of knowledge. Excuse me, you’ve done no serious research. Idiot.
Robertjones,
Let’s look at what you wrote:
Robertjones said,
I’d like to think we could have a reasonable discussion without name calling. Fair?
Robertjones said,
Yes, I realize it. I wrote about it awhile back here: Should You Be Buying Supplements? Specifically I cite this NY Times article: Herbal Supplements are Often Not What They Seem.
Of course, this only serves to make your argument look worse. Because now we have to question if Le-vel Thrive is what it says it is.
Robertjones said,
Has 500,000+ people said that? Can you show me the source of that information?
As for how that many people can be wrong, the answer can be attributed to two things:
A) Placebo effect. Court documents revealed that MonaVie sold “expensive flavored juice”, and the health claims were “bogus.” They were a billion dollar juice company, but it was sold for $15 million. This is the kind of thing that happens in MLM/pyramid schemes. It’s so typical that it was covered in the Huffington Post years ago.
B) People’s payment being dependent on such claims. These claims help recruit people and MLM companies pitch financial freedom based on recruiting people.
To put this another way, how do a vast majority of the comments here say it didn’t change their life? Why do many claim that it hurt them?
Robertjones said,
You can feel that way, but given that I haven’t lived at since high school, am happily married for 8+ years now, and have an estimated annual $200,000 in retirement income. So you’d look like a lazy man sitting in your mom’s basement typing up nonsense that you couldn’t spend a few minutes to review.
Robertjones said,
People claimed MonaVie “worked” too and bought it. It didn’t, but MLMs typically have requirement qualifications to participate in the “business opportunity.” People buy because
Robertjones said,
Wow really, Robertjones? People generally have a predictable reaction to apples or chicken. It’s not like someone eats apples and can fly and others get sick for days. We know that vitamins are scientifically shown not to do anything in most cases. So let’s not pretend that everything is a mystery… it simply isn’t.
Why would Thrive put shellfish in any of their products? No one would expect it. Instead of putting the fault on the consumer, put it on the company for not making the disclosure obvious enough. Centrum is fine for people with shellfish allergies. Shouldn’t Thrive at least live up to that standard which costs much less?
Robertjones said,
I’ve written over a million words here and have 7 million page views on this website. My degree from a top 30 University in linguistics is strong proof that I know the meaning of words. If you want some proof of my intelligence, here’s my Mensa membership.
Robertjones said,
You don’t seem to know what a pyramid scheme is. Just last month, the FTC shut down Vemma for being a pyramid scheme. The federal judge agreed. Yes, they sold products, juice and energy drinks. People got “something” in return, but it wasn’t of importance in comparison of the overall scheme.
Robertjones, you are the one being lazy and not doing your research. Notice how I cite my sources, and you just make claims with no supporting information?
Robertjones said,
… Or because they want to motivate people to recruit others to reach a certain level in theh scheme?
Robertjones said,
MLM is not a business. It becomes obvious when you look at the math of business success: Failure Rate of MLMs vs. Small Businesses.
It is closer to a lottery than a business. I could create a “business” where someone has to pay $100 to hit 10 holes-in-one in a row at a par 3 golf course to win $1000. I could tell people that you have to put time and work into your golf game. It wouldn’t be a lottery in the sense that it is pure luck, but it certainly wouldn’t be a fair “business.” That’s essentially is the MLM pitch.
Robertjones said,
Please explain, scientifically, how putting a patch on helps you with your diet and exercise? That literally makes as much sense as a shampoo company saying, “Use our shampoo and it will help you with your diet and exercise.”
In other words, it is ridiculous and nonsensical.
Robertjones said,
Who is recommending that? It certainly isn’t me. Once again, it doesn’t seem that any Thrive products have to do with exercise vs. “sit[ting] on your ass.”
Robertjones said,
You disgust me with your lack of knowledge an failure to cite sources. Yes, I’ve done serious research. And while you may like to call me an “idiot”, I have credentials to show that I am a genius.
Robertjones, your argument here is very transparent. Readers can see you aren’t very intelligent.
AJB, you should do what I’ve done, and post the link to this blog and the comments on your facebook/twitter if you are so inclined so we can inform people of the truth.
Halloween Whopper,
As author of this blog, I grant myself the latitude to go on a tangent. How is the Halloween Whopper?
To bring this back on topic… thank you for posting links to this article to inform people of the truth. I appreciate it.
Robertjones: “You sir are pathetic.”
I’m guessing based on your tactful intro that you majored in public relations? It’s always nice to be polite and call someone “sir” before you insult the hell out of them. Well played sir!
Robertjones: “You do realize that they’ve come to find out most of the supplements you find on shelves nowadays are actually cut with nothing the product says the ingredients are.”
No. Most? Really? Who are “they”? It wouldn’t matter if every supplement were filled with sawdust. The illegitimacy of “other things” has no bearing on the legitimacy of Le-vel. BTW do you have a grammar checker?
Robertjones “How can 500,000+ people that take thrive and says it’s changed their life be wrong?”
Um, I dunno. Who are these 500,000+ people you speak of? How many said it changed their lives for the worse? Most I would imagine. I’ve only known you for a day and my life is worse for it already.
Robertjones “I feel as though your some lazy man 40 year old sitting in their moms basement typing up nonsense that you think you’re an expert in. It’s sad.”
And that puerile and unprovoked personal attack wasn’t sadder still (bordering on sociopathic)?
Robertjones “I was a skeptic as well and have used thrive for a long time. It works.”
Oh, well then case closed, right? Evidence be damned! BobbyJ the anonymous former skeptic says “it works” You apparently forgot that you’re supposed to write that in all caps with 7 exclamation points; otherwise people might not take you seriously.
Robertjones: “Otherwise people wouldn’t buy it.”
They would if it was being used as the admission ticket to a pyramid scheme, or if they were being misled, as in this case.
Robertjones: “So there’s a few people that got side effects from it? So what?”
Your concern and empathy is overwhelming. Wow!
Robertjones: “Every supplement or anything that someone puts in their body will not act the same for the next man or woman.”
Mangled grammar aside, if you take a reliable standard-dose vitamin supplement, the absorption of the vitamins is very predictable, barring illnesses that can impair digestion, etc. But I wouldn’t play Russian roulette with any product intended for human consumption that’s offered by a brain-eating sales-zombie from an MLM like Le-vel.
Robertjones: “I mean really? Are you that ignorant?”
You are surely in the running for the Least Self Aware Man on Earth award.
Robertjones: “And to the person who said they got allergies and then saw it contained shellfish. Then complained about it? Get some glasses or actually read before you put something new into your body idiot. That’s your own dumb fault.”
Such a bedside manner. You have the soft touch of an axe murderer. That solves the great mystery of why you’re relegated to working for pennies flogging pyramid scheme snakeoil.
Robertjones: “And I really have no respect for people like you that don’t know the meanings of words. You just make yourself look ignorant and unintelligent.”
Holly Flying F!!! You’re hysterical. Like some kind of grotesque performance art designed to make people feel painfully uncomfortable. Experiencing your peculiar combination of callousness, vitriol, and knack for unintended irony makes me want to scrub myself with Borax.
Robertjones: “A pyramid scheme is a business that promises you product and advancement if you buy and sell their products… The scheme part is when you put in the money and get nothing in return.”
You clearly don’t have even the faintest notion of what constitutes a pyramid scheme. The FTC does though, and it’s nothing remotely like what you suggested. Le-vel fits it to a T.
Robertjones: “You see, lazy man… Your name really holds you to being lazy, thrive has helped hundreds of thousands of people with product that works and money that they can live off of without a 9-5.”
I can’t imagine that you actually believe that.
Robertjones: “No product is an overnight fix. No mlm is an overnight fix. You still put time and work into it. It’s a business not a lottery.”
Any MLM income disclosure statement or expert analysis of typical earnings for distributors proves that it is in fact much more like a lottery. It’s certainly not a “business” in the typical sense of the word. A Le-vel distributor owns nothing; they are not business operators but rather poorly compensated sales drones given the Sisyphean task of plugging a blatant scam.
Robertjones: “Don’t cry to me when you’re taking a healthy all natural plant based product and then sit on your ass complaining it did t do anything.”
Aw, I was hoping to do just that, because you seem like such a thoughtful and sympathetic person.
Robertjones: “You disgust me with your lack of knowledge. Excuse me, you’ve done no serious research. Idiot.”
You’re obviously very angry but it seems as though your real frustration is with yourself and that you’re lashing out at others because you feel lost and impotent. Anyone with eyes can see that Lazy Man wrote a very detailed and well thought out article that was replete with airtight logic and supporting evidence. What you responded with wasn’t a rebuttal; you simply projectile vomited bile. It’s mind boggling to witness someone so utterly lacking in self awareness as to not realize the extent to which their antisocial behavior further damages Le-vel’s reputation.
I decided to leave a comment which i rarely do because this “supplement” is something strange. I have a friend who raves on and on about how amazing this product is on facebook. And the things she says about it sounds more like some sort of amphetamines has been added. This concept is not new to the supplement business. As a matter of fact if people are having crazy energy and burning fat it almost seems impossible to NOT have an illegal drug.
So im going to let the world in on a little secret. I work in a toxicology lab. We have many high profile clients. Many athletes and professionals. Some times when they take their drug test for their “job” which is usually sports or entertainment, they will test positive for drugs or steroids. These people have a lot of money so they fight the accusations and claim they have ONLY been taking this supplement or that supplement. They send in all supplements thats they use on a regular basis and we test them for the drugs that the person was positive for. And there are cases where the supplements are laced with drugs like amphetamines or other illicit drugs. Because the FDA does not regulate supplements the manufacturer can put anything on the lable in its list of ingredients, which may or may not be in the product. They can even omit ingredients. And to be honest when my friends first reviews started going on FB my first thought was that it was laced with an illicit drug. It’s important to note not all drugs affect people the same. You have metabolism and all sorts of factors. Which is why some people seem to be more affected by this product than others. I sent my friend a private message asking them to be careful as the reviews they were making on the product seemed to be more in the drug realm than in the vitamin one. I must admit i didnt come here about the pyramid scheme. Im very cheap and never get mixed into buying “infomercial” type products such as this. I have seen people fall into schemes like this and the truth of the matter they will always fight you when you try and tell them differently, so i dont. Let them learn their lesson. You make very vaild points on why this is a pyramid scheme and i can only hope it saves the next person from getting involved. I just wanted to post to make people aware, please please be careful when taking supplements. Its not unheard of for them to be laced with things not on their lable. You can practically make any drug in a lab, from opiates to amphetamines to whatever and lace a multivitamin with it. It has happened and it will continue to happen until they are regulated. If your effects from your miracle vitamin sound like something you hear from a drug, it probably has that drug in it. Ritalin for example is an amphetamine, it gives energy, focus and you can stay up days on end without a crash, like a surgar crash you would expect from throwing back energy drinks trying to pull an all nighter. Thats what this Thrive crap sounds like, but opiates can give you happiness and a relaxed feeling or euphoria. There are tons of drugs out there so no telling whats in this one. Just be wary is all i am saying people.
I am not procliaming to be better than the next person. I drink energy drinks and eat junk food and rarely excercise, although i am working on all of that. I just know from being in the toxicology business that when it comes to supplements not all is what it seems. Be careful people. Weightloss supplements by far usually are the worst when it comes to being laced with stuff they aren’t supposed to be.
Forensics point is valid. There have been many high profile cases of spiking and adulteration of supplements. Two of the most common drug adulterants are ephedrine (which had an amphetamine like effect) and sidenafil, which has been used to spike allegedly “all natural” boner pills.
As far as writing here to try and share anything about Le-vel and their product thrive to possibly change any opinions, that would clearly be a waste of time, no matter what anyone says at this point it appears those who are fiercely against it have long ago made up their minds. However, for those who may actually read this blog that are curious about the product and who read what has been written here, I know I for one would still look into it before trusting others who appear to actually be frightened of people taking thrive, which is pretty much laughable, but hey whatever knock yourself out. I’m guessing besides zombie movies and kenneth star as your investigative guru, you’re all pretty well set. But for the claims that are just plain false or have been shared by having run into people with thrive that are just blindly selling this product with zero judgement, research or training, I can say that as for people that are telling others that it has no caffeine, clearly that is just ludicrous. Of course it does. And I can’t imagine why anyone would try and sell it on the basis that it does not. I do know that it is not the kind of effect that caffeine from coffee gives me with the jitters and crashing afterwards. And as for not being able to cancel auto shipments and not being able to get to anyone to fix it for them? You get your own website login and can set up your own order the way you want it. If you want to cancel anything, you do it right through your cloud office. This company you are correct, does not have “headquarters”, it is cloud based, but that only gives the liberty to those who are either customers or promoters to take care of what they want how they want it. And as for shipping issues and not receiving product or continuing to be charged, I saw that yes there were 17 complaints, all btw, which had been corrected when I checked with the BBB. Are there still people out there who are having issues? I’m sure there are. But when you consider there are literally thousands of orders being placed a day, that number is pretty minor compared to any company that ships out anything. Check on damn near any company that auto ships, from Cindy Crawfords “Meaningful Beauty”, to “Wen”, or you name it. As a matter of fact, if your going to bitch about a company, why not “WEN” by Chaz Dean. It has had hundreds and probably into the thousands of complaints of causing womens hair to fall out, but do you see that anywhere in the warning when ordering the product? No, no you don’t. Or “Hydroleze” or whatever it’s called? They were shipping and charging people despite cancelling, sending back product and all within the “refund period” cancelled properly right down to the letter and continue to bill people over and over again only being stopped when people have to go through the trouble of canceling their credit cards and the nightmare that becomes with other things that have to be changed for billing because of this… they have lawsuits pending and are still growing strong. But it appears only the companies that are considered “MLMs” do you want to attack. And no Lazyman, I have not read your 2000 plus articles, I’ve got things to do, but good for you. I’m glad you investigate companies. However, if you are going to trash a companies product and say that it doesn’t work? How about doing proper investigative journalism and not just stating your well meaning opinion without at least trying the product, taking it as instructed for the full eight weeks and then giving your opinion. And Anna, that the people know the product doesn’t work and everyone that takes it knows it’s bs? Well, I’d just have to agree to disagree with you on that. This product has not only allowed me to get back into functioning again for the first time in years after having dealt with any number of issues after severe traumas, and medications prescribed to me by doctors who put people on pharmaceuticals that mess up the system of the individual to a point where they feel that they’ll never fully recover, hell, half of the drugs on the market have so many side effects just to cure anything from the most minor of ailments to the most severe, with death being one of the delightful possibilities one has to look forward to if they take certain “drugs” created to “cure” them… “maybe”, that is, in many cases. “It may be attributed to….” and “It may be caused by cell a not talking to cell b, and can cause severe depression and suicidal thoughts or tendencies”… yes, those are all wonderful products pushed by doctors, and only the 1%ers making the money off of all of those drugs.
But create a system of vitamins and actually help people to feel better and whamo! “hurry, shut em down!” It’s like a witch hunt. And why, so you lazy man can save people their money when they could go and get the same thing from the local health food store where Steve the 18 year old high school drop out making 8 bucks an hour can recommend the vitamins and minerals that I’m looking for to help me with depressive feelings, fatigue, cognitive issues brought on by pharmaceuticals, detox systems and hair supplements that cost in upwards of hundreds of dollars? By the time you get out of there, you’ve spent literally hundreds, for God knows how many products and all you say Lazy man that could be taken care of with a good multi vitamin? Really? Have you ever suffered from any of the things that the people I’ve listened to and myself experienced suffer from, that have never felt better.. finally, after years and years of trying everything they can to do so? Hiring nutritionists, who advise this and that and doing research for the information (and who has the time and money to do all of that btw? Maybe you do, but the average person doesn’t), information that they never really find to get the right things to make them feel the way this has for literally thousands of people? You’re going to rip this as you rip everything, and there is nothing I’m going to try to do or be able to do if I could, to stop you. But making people think that the products created by Le-vel are just bs? Well, that’s just plain irresponsible and unprofessional. You continue to compare it to taking Centrum or other multi-vitamins, when they have NOTHING even remotely to do with one another. You say that 500,000 people plus are not really feeling different from this? That they are possibly feeling a placebo? That is laughable! You compare it to Monavie? Well again, it’s nothing even close to the same, not the product, not the results. I was pushed by a few people to try monavie, but simply read the ingredients and knew that there was not a thing in it to do a thing, yet because it was an MLM and promoted energy and feeling amazing, it therefore must be the same thing and therefore a scam. Clearly you are intelligent, that is a given, and that intelligence makes it possible for you to take anything anyone writes in favor of Le-vel and Thrive and twist it to make it a bunch of BS, well good for you, you’ve got a gift and are using it to get people to listen to you, to believe in what you say.. .it’s a shame you use that in this case for a product that is genuinely making people feel amazing and yes, is changing lives for the positive both on the customer end and the promoter end. Few companies that product a product that helps people in any way, benefit anyone except for those few owners/1%ers, but this actually allows the people who take it and have resulting benefits that are changing their lives for the better are also actually able to profit from it financially…. why does that piss people off instead of make them happy that the customer actually has a chance to become independently wealthy… all in promoting something that they themselves love and simply sharing that fact, letting the person try it and leaving it up to the individual to decide. No one has had to push anyone to take this, although there are always people out there that do what they’re going to do and not necessarily do the right thing or say the right thing, you can’t control everyone. But as for your question that are 500,000 people really saying it works? Um, yes. If you were to actually check, you can see the hundreds of testimonies posted on the Le-vel fan page, who btw, cannot possibly post every single testimony, so they discriminate and chose those who they think will most closely speak to everyone, giving people who haven’t tried it a chance to see something they have been suffering with and having difficulties with change for the better, giving people hope, and those people are now trying this product and experiencing that same result. No one told me anything except to try and and see if it helped give me any benefit. The results I’ve had, happen to be what I’ve been reading ever since and there is no “placebo” in the FACT that despite trying everything from doctors, nutritionist, etc, that were trying to help me with my hair from shedding/falling out, for years.. way more than I felt it should be and was lucky I had a lot of hair or would be bald by now… yet, despite no one telling me that my hair may start getting thick again, after the third time I washed my hair and saw that very little had come out, I realized that this was ANOTHER amazing benefit from the product, and yes, this has continued… my hair has gotten thick again, and even though every time I wash my hair I still worry that maybe it’s going to go back to the way it was, but three months later, it hasn’t gone back to falling out, I have maybe fourteen pieces compared to over a hundred. The fact I’ve never been a morning person, had stomach issues, couldn’t focus well, couldnt’ keep my energy sustained when I actually did have any to begin with, the fatigue is gone, and I’ve gotten back to working out as I’d not wanted to nor had the energy to do it. ALL of that and then some, has changed, and yes, my life has gotten better big time since starting thrive. You and your posts tell people this can’t be true, is bs and they should stay away from it, and you feel good about that? You are pleased that because of your posts (though people should think for themselves and try things for themselves so it’s their own fault) someone who could benefit like I have and literally thousands of others have, those people will not try this now and will most likely continue to feel the way they have, despite they don’t have to, because thrive and what it is doing for people is real, isn’t bs and isn’t out there anywhere for people to get, at any cost. People trust you and your intelligence and that’s great, but not everyone is stupid just because they aren’t as smart as you, because they don’t have a way with words the way you do, and they have to turn to someone like yourself to get your review before trying something, but when people who actually DO know about this product, and are speaking the truth, you slam them. You are not here to debate and be open minded, you’ve made up your mind, and you have a way of making everything everyone says or does come off sounding false or wrong. As for “shellfish” being in the product? It isn’t, they have to put that because like any product (as you see often with nuts) if a company produces products that have come into contact with nuts, or in this case, shellfish, they have to add that, it doesn’t mean there nuts in things, it means the instruments used in production have come into contact with nuts so the FDA has made it so they need to say that, jic. The same goes here for shellfish, but you twist things around and make it sound once again, “fishy” no pun intended. You want to find a “loophole” to the fact that because you refer two people and get your product using credits instead of having to pay cash afterwards, as a pyramid scheme, fine, knock yourself out. But the one thing that le-vel absolutely does, is share this product thrive. It is all about the product. Have you listened to any of the conference calls that you can sit in on? Have you heard the hundreds and thousands of voices and testimonies and how case by case, issue by issue, this product has helped? The people are wonderful, christian every day people who have suffered from being able to feel good about themselves and life and this has helped them, big time, they are people that are reputable that work for this company, is it is ALL about the product. And it DOES work, and DOES help people.
continued… it wouldn’t all fit…
Nothing, not in eight years, not with every vitamin supplement, every nutritionist, doctor, and on and on, has helped me and hundreds of others that I’ve heard from, the way this has. And I’ve tried the “stimulant” you all keep referring to that is also in thrive along with a long list of other supplements that provide a long list of support for many different problems people face in their busy lives, and that stimulant on its own in the amount that I got from the health food store did not have the same effect until I used it in conjunction with the other products in thrive,, again… My hair that was falling out, is not any longer… and I had once again… tried EVERYTHING for that, and at a great cost in many instances I might add.
I won’t write back, don’t worry or bother to waste your precious intelligence and time to rip apart everything I’ve said here, I’m sure the run-on sentences, or missing letters, merged together words (that btw, with your vast intelligence from my first post to you, you so eloquently challenged, should have worked to have made you aware as I am when I see it, that I was writing from my cell phone and that it often merges words, despite trying to edit it, sometimes you miss things and sometimes you just get tired of trying to fix it, hoping those reading will most likely get what you are saying and realize, “oh, this was written from a cell”, and I’ve seen it here from your supporters a few times but you don’t say a word about it then. Btw, your posts are not perfect either and have been written, not always, but a few I’ve noticed, missing a word here or there that was necessary for a perfectly written sentence. The problem with people who are “mensa” smart? They don’t leave any room for anything else except their perfectly researched opinion, whether they are right or not.. .they are right. Who could possibly dispute that? No one, except someone equally as intelligent, …. but your intelligence should be aware of this… telling people that something does not and can not work and is able to be found in another cheaper product and stating it as fact… yet never, not once having tried the product yourself? Is just plain unprofessional, irresponsible and wrong. Thrive does work, as do the other products they produce, but say what you want. You obviously will.
Holy crap, Morgan!
You posted 2600 words, that’s longer than my entire article. None of it makes any sense.
I’ll cover just a couple of points to show how bad your logic is.
1) There’s a very simple way to know if a product works. There’s this thing called Clinically Effective Research. You can learn more about it at the National Institute of Health. If Thrive had any confidence in their products, you’d see them prove it by undertaking that process.
2) It’s been well established that the placebo effect happens about 30-40% of the time (here’s one source). So if you had 300 million people try a placebo pill known not to be effective, a 100 million people would report it worked. Now you could say, “How can 100 million people be wrong?” Yet you’d know they obviously are since you purposely gave them a pill that did nothing.
This is very basic logic that was covered in my 8th grade science class. This doesn’t require a Mensa membership.
Morgan says there is no shellfish in the product, but the product says “Product contains shellfish”. I can assure you I did have an allergic reaction to it and when I stopped taking it my reaction went away… Say what you want… It doesn’t say ‘may come into contact with’ it SAYS: PRODUCT CONTAINS SHELLFISH. AND it should be listed in the ingredients, where MOST people look… not at the bottom of the package is fine print. I’m spent my whole life watching for this. And like I said, YES, I should’ve read the whole package… too bad I already spent $180 before I could find that information.
I’ve taken other health products, vitamins, nutritional supplements, herbal products and they do not contain SHELLFISH…
Bravo Morgan. My rude comment was also written from my cell as this is as well. It was in haste while chasing two toddlers around but I had to put my opinion in. I do however apologize for my remarks.
But we’ll put Morgan. Hit the nail on the head.
Hey lazy man, sure you didn’t ever work for Fox News? Cause that’s how you run this blog.
Actually these comments feel like they are coming Fox News.
Your research is flawed and you are a complete idiot. If you were in the business to inform people, you would provide them with factual information not your opinion. Did the companies you “promoted” in your spiel pay you for the endorsement? If you’d like a free sample of Thrive, I’d love to share!
What flaws are in my research Jennifer? As I’ve shown before idiots don’t get invited into Mensa like me. Any commentary that you read is going to be an opinion based on factual information. I like to think that I’ve given people both.
The two financial tools that I mention are completely free. If you want to track your finances and build an emergency fund, use them. If not, don’t. I promote them because I realized it is a shame that people are coming to these articles and not getting the financial help that I created this website for.
Why not take the opportunity to turn something negative into something positive?
And your proof of being a member of Mensa is where again? I don’t feel like I’m talking to someone whose IQ is in the top 2%
Anyone can say they’re in Mensa.
I’m in Mensa.
See.
Robert Jones,
See my membership card in my article here: What’s in Lazy Man’s Wallet? I wrote the article 5 years ago, took the picture 5 years ago and have comments from 5 years ago. As you can see, there’s very good proof and not just words.
Look up “Casting pearls before swine” and perhaps you’ll understand why you don’t feel like you are talking to someone whose IQ is in the top 2%.
Lazy Man – I have not had the Halloween Whopper, but I was thinking it has about as much nutritional value as these stupid pills and patches. Hence the name.
I am going to set out to find a lab that can deconstruct these products and then post the results online. I’m sure this can be done and I’m sure the results would be shocking.
How can 500,000 people take thrive and say they have had a positive reaction you ask. Well, I dialed into the last few promoter calls and the leadership says the company will do $400 million in sales this year. By my math, 500,000 people ordering on average of $200 per month for 12 months would be revenue of $1.2 BILLION – the people in charge of this company are idiots and they are lying to you. Show me some facts that prove the number of current customers, churn, etc. You can’t. You won’t. In fact, you have no idea what the real numbers are. In fact, there are over 325,000 followers on the LeVel facebook page, if everyone of those was buying $200 a month in supplements, the company would be over $700 million in revenue, so clearly that isn’t happening.
People say they are doing well on thus stuff so they can sell it. See above where the person commented that most people promoting it on facebook, are fat. The most senior leaders of your company don’t even take their own products. That’s a fact.
You say it works, otherwise people wouldn’t buy it right? Well, actually, the same people who were buying it a few months ago, aren’t the same people buying it today. The churn among promoters and customers is skyrocketing and is astonishing.
I feel sorry for these promoters who say “I’ll send you a free sample” – do you realize how gullible you are? That’s how LeVel sells more products. They convince their promoters to take the product in order to be able to market it easier to customers and to buy extra to be able to hand out to people as samples. That’s the scam, that’s why it is a Ponzi, pyramid scheme. You people who don’t see that, are the same morons who post chain messaged on your facebook feed. Gullible. Sad. Annoying.
The name calling in these response by the fanatical thrive supporters is the kind of Ad Hominem attack I would expect from some idiots pushing a garbage product in a pyramid scheme to make a few bucks because they haven’t been able to make enough money in their sad, sorry careers otherwise. Seriously, how much money are you making per month? And why are the guys at the top of the pyramid scheme driving Lamborghinis, flying in private planes and living the high life while scamming you with fake products? You, are a sucker, and that’s a fact, not an Ad Hominem attack.
Hey, let’s not insult Halloween Whoppers. I’m sure they have a lot of protein ;-)
There is a frequent commenter here by the name of Vogel who might be able to help you find such a lab.
Thanks for doing the math on the 500,000 people. MLM companies almost never show audited information by a third party.
When I’ve looked at churn of MLM companies, it is often in the 80-90% range. The people involved don’t really care about the product itself. That’s why you see MonaVie collapsing.
Scary Halloween whopper man,
You do realize that not everyone pays for thrive right? Most get it for free. You’d know that if you actually had some knowledge of what you’re talking about.
Your numbers are off bud. As well as your lack of researching something before you know what you’re talking about. Try doing that from now on please.
Also, good luck on the deconstruction. Pretty sure that’s not a good idea on your part.
Additionally, Le-vel does 3rd party audits. Please please do your homework. It makes you seem worth listening to.
Hmmm Robert, you moved on from the talk of Mensa rather quickly.
If most people are getting Thrive for free as you state, you are essentially admitting it is a pyramid scheme. As I covered previously, they appear to be over-charging some people 50x. Presumably the company isn’t in the business of giving away free product… that would be terrible business. So some appear to getting grossly overcharged by hundreds of dollars a year, but “most get it for free.” Could you send this analysis into the FTC, please?
Please link me to the 3rd party audits that you claim that Le-vel does. I’d love to read them. And don’t respond with, “do your homework.” If you have proof present it and we’ll discuss it. That’s how a discussion works.
Robert – My numbers are estimates. If there are really 500,000 people using Thrive, then that’s great, but evidence seems to point to that not being the case. You understand that cash is fungible right? So when you use Thrive credit to buy product, it still counts as a sale right? Or do you not quite understand that? The Thrive credit should be carried as a working capital liability, therefore, the “free” product you get, is included in the revenue numbers articulated by the management team, bud.
But, like Lazy Man said – you just confirmed this is a pyramid scheme where the people on top benefit from the over-paying of the people on bottom. I will be sure to link that comment to my next FTC complaint as I have filed many and have had others do the same.
But hey, why don’t you go ahead and say I haven’t done any research, or that I’m not smart, or call me names. That seems to work well for you, bud.
Bottom line – why are there inconsistencies in the numbers? Why are there no third party reports? Why no certifications? Why produced in the state where the rules are the most relaxed on supplement manufacturing when you advertise it is a PREMIUM product (with no third party studies to back that up)? Seems like it doesn’t add up. This company will come crumbling down.
I will be hiring someone with my own money to take the supplements apart and I will create a blog to post those results. Facts are facts, hype is hype, and Thrive, is just hype.
Lazy Man – how can I go about getting in touch with Vogel? Maybe his contacts will be better than me starting from scratch on bringing this company down.
Oh, and Mensa guy, check the following sentence out:
“As well as your lack of researching something before you know what you’re talking about”
Technically, before I research something, I wouldn’t know what I’m talking about right?
Halloween Whopper, I can’t decide which I love more, your adherence to logic or your whimsical moniker.
Vogel is omnipresent. Well, not really. I think he’ll chime in with some resources when he gets the chance. Usually it isn’t more than a day or two. If he doesn’t respond in a couple of days, I’ll reach out to him.
If you are really interested in bringing Le-vel down, why not consider a class action lawsuit? I have a lawyer who has expressed interest in litigating such things in this area. It has to fit in a narrow range of jurisdiction and low-lying legal fruit to pluck, but it can’t hurt.
“Additionally, Le-vel does 3rd party audits. Please please do your homework. It makes you seem worth listening to,”
Then let’s see the reports. Please post them somewhere visible for others to see. They don’t exist do they? What we will find out, when I deconstruct the pills, etc. and sue the Company, is that there are no reports and if there are reports, the outcomes are negative which is why they are not published. Do your research, and don’t lie. Basics of life, bud.
You don’t even have an address for the business other than the home of someone who registered the LLC. You don’t have a customer service phone number. But, your leadership has money for lavish personal expenditures to help keep up the appearance they are doing well in order to motivate others – hello Pyramid scheme.
One more point – I can’t wait for the response to my comment on his sentence about researching. I expect I have to break it down and explain what that means.
Waiting…..
Just to break this “free” concept down further so people aren’t unclear on my comment above.
If I sell product, I am awarded a commission. I am given the option of taking that commission in a cash payment (where I have to use their payment processor and pay a fee, which is ridiculous) or I can convert my commission into Thrive credit.
If I convert into Thrive credit, it’s really my money that I’m using to buy Thrive. It’s not really “free” product. I just elected to take my money and convert it to Thrive credit.
So my point above, about the sales numbers, is 100% accurate and anyone who knows anything about accounting or business at all would know that. A college drop-out, would not. Period.
And it’s worth mentioning that getting a “Thrive credit” would not seem to be very valuable, since the product is so exorbitantly over-priced to begin with.
It sounds like a ton of hard work for what appears to be the equivalent of $13 a year in vitamins. I can give you hundreds of ways to save hundreds of dollars a year… see this page. Many of them can be done in just a few minutes.
So waste time trying to get Thrive credit?
My plan is to get someone to deconstruct the supplements and figure out what harmful things are in them or how far they are from what they are advertised to be.
Then I will get a group of my friends and I who have tried Thrive, realized it is a scam and moved on to file a suit together at the same time as looping in the FTC, FDA and SEC.
I know the SEC is a stretch, but if these guys ever want to liquidate, borrow, sell the business, etc. I want it to have been flagged with the SEC.
I’ll wait for Vogel to speak up, but I think I can move forward without him/her.
Once I make progress, I will reach out to you offline as you seem like a smart guy who would be interested in following along with my progress.
If you want to loop in the FTC, FDA, and SEC on a scheme that would be great.
I believe that exposing a few MLM health companies will cause a domino effect.
As far as deconstructing supplements for harmful things… that would be an easy path to success. However, if it turns out that it is accurately labeled, I think there’s still a lot of problems. It may still be views as starting a $500 million company the easy way.
I clearly have some work to do. I won’t be able to accomplish what I’m trying to do overnight, but if I work at it and find the right partners, I can have a real impact here and I plan to do so.
I’m going to wage a PREMIUM LIFESTYLE effort against this scam. They prey upon the poor and those who have mediocre jobs and lives. This is going to change.
Hi Whopper. You might consider trying Chromadex for analytical services.
https://chromadex.com/Services/Analytical-Services.html
I have a family member who uses Thrive, I asked exactly what it was and what it’s supposed to do, no response from her or anyone, to me I told her it sounded like legal “speed” I am under a doctor’s care to lose weight I am doing with a diet pill high protein shakes low calorie or carb diet started 02/18/2014 at 393 lbs today is 09/30/2015 I’m at 316. I even read about bariactric surgery, it still takes at least 5 years to get all the weight off. I have to maintain my weight once I get to my final goal, I can continue my diet but I will not continue to take the diet pill.
Vogel – thank you. Their fees are really reasonable. Shouldn’t cost much to get some analysis on all of their products. Will get started next week. I can’t wait to see what we learn!
Lazy Man – you should post a link to this blog on the Le-Vel facebook page. I would love to see the reaction. It would be like ants running from an ant hill.
I’m betting they would block me… probably already have. It would be interesting if people here did it though, because if multiple people did it, they’d be help on their toes.
I have to agree….I had problems with the glue and the patches tore my skin off…but the bigger problem is I was “encouraged” to put it on AUTOSHIP(payments) but since the product was bad for me I called and had the Le-VEl promoter take me off…she said she did….now my cc is saying they took 3 months of 134..00 out….I am having one hell of a time reaching a real person and of course the promoter said I was supposed to take it off(which I also did) and blah blah blah….So be careful…if you cannot talk to a real person to file a complaint well its a rip!!
I’ll post it to their facebook and start hashtagging the link to their #thrive hashtag on twitter.
Others should do the same.
I did that with one MLM company during their annual pep rally and the company actually retweeted it to all their followers.
This Thrive fad reminds me of the MonAvi madness that turned out to be just concentrated juice! How can ANYONE in their right mind buy into this bullsh*t?
Great article. I have seen a number of friends on Facebook raving about this product and company. After looking at their website which isn’t very informative, I came to the same conclusion you did. Expensive vitamins.
Most my friends on facebook have also changed their life style (eating and exercising habits) but claim it the product is making this happen. Clearly it was their life style choices not just the product. Most also have said they have great energy from thrive products. Well duh!!! There are tons of B vitamins. Vitamin B=energy! No one should spend extra money on this. Learn good eating habits and exercise regularly and you will see changes. Buy cheaper vitamins with Vitamin B if you need energy. With that said vitamins are not FDA regulated to begin with so you have no idea what you are really getting. Causion should always be taken when trying products like this. I’d say do your research but clearly people do not. Which is why companies like this can make money.
Lazy Man – I’m surprised the crazies over at Le-Vel haven’t contacted you to try to take this blog down.
When they do, please post that, I think it will be funny.
I’ve done it a few times. MLM companies have been threatening to sue me since 2009. Monavie’s threat to sue me caught the attention of The Consumerist.
These comments are totally entertaining. The agressive way the “thrivers” responded to this blog have convinced me that the product contains speed. Morgan’s sarcastic comment about your fear of the thrivers made me laugh. They really are scary.
Do you know which product they use in their shake that helps stop pain. I’ve been taking their shake because I have chronic pain in my feet, and it’s been helping. Do those other supplements you suggest have that property in them too? I’m all about saving some money. Thanks
I am so thankful to have found you Lazyman and thank you to the other posters here.Here’s my Thrive experience, just this morning. Just this morning I used the Thrive samples I received at a get together recently and that is some weird stuff. The vitamin capsules and the shake were fine. I did my treadmill and felt fine. Then the patch. Wow. I placed it on my inner left forearm. Didn’t take long and my whole arm, shoulder and upper left back started aching. Then I got terribly cold. Freezing. Goosebumps. I am post menopausal and everyone that knows me knows that I am always hot. Then my tongue began to tingle. I am not allergic to shellfish.This was with the patch on only 2 1/2 hours. I tore that thing off. I’m sure Thrivers would tell me that I’m detoxing but I’m not buying it. Needless to say I’m thankful for your information and that of others. It backs up my experience and I will steer others away. This stuff can’t be healthy.
That’s the problem with anectodal evidence. If it works you shout it from the rooftops. If it doesn’t, people generally don’t say anything. The shills will tell you it “worked” for their 3 recruits but they don’t tell you about the 30 people who were given free samples and for whom it did absolutely nothing. That is why the gold standard for proving efficacy is a properly randomized, double-blind study to make sure that the 30 people’s experience is accounted for.
Awesome article, thank you a ton for this valuable info. Finally saw like the 10th friend on my feed mention it and I began to wonder if the hype could be real. Now that you have explained the pay structure it doesn’t take a genius to see the obvious crooked nature. Yet another predatory model preying on the weakness of human nature.
I am LOVING LazyMan, Vogel, and HalloweenWhopper!!!! I pray to God you get some results we can sink our teeth into!!!
My sister got me started on this stuff—I love my sister dearly, but if I see one more post of how she is going up and down stairs like a kid—I’m gonna scream! Cuz I sure don’t feel that good!! So I’ve been told to “put the patch where it actually hurts, try the Men’s capsules, try Black Label, try Boost, drink water!!!!”
So here’s’ my Thrive Experience ( and I’ve done it since June 29). Lost 20 lbs first 5 weeks–I can do the same with WW–I just didn’t feel like eating as much or the usual crap. Had ONE day where I felt euphoric (sky was bluer, music was sweeter, I was singing and dancing in the back yard–I am 63). Had ONE day where I could walk across a field without much pain–whoops–we’re not supposed to use word “pain”. I was able to recall vocabulary better (mental clarity??) My fingernails grew fast (I usually bite them). I did notice my Obsession with food was gone.
The present reality (still taking the damn stuff)–Pain in my knee, sciatic nerve, shins, and eating everything in site (haven’t weighed–but will be doing WW!). Fingernails all broke off, didnt take it yesterday–but felt I “should” today (dependent??). Conclusion: what have I done?
I did just complete my yearly physical–all my numbers were as usual (pretty good for fat old gal) but my A1c was at 7.1 from 6.4 last year.
I hope you get some answers as to what is REALLY going on here and in this stuff. My sister has become obsessed–and it’s become her answer to everyone’s problem (health, money, etc.). I have always been a truth seeker–and I want the truth!!
As far as the marketing model—even I wondered who the heck is paying for this if I and all my friends are going to “get it free”?!?!?! Come on people, common sense here!!! And how can you recommend it to everyone when you don’t know their body’s reaction—that seems very irresponsible! Is somebody going to have to die before this is exposed? I’m signed up as a promoter—but didn’t promote it!!!
And finally, my sis asked if I would place a large order for her (and she would pay me back) so she could advance. WTH does that tell you?
Please, guys, let’s shine the light!!!
I don’t have any scientific facts to bring to the table. However, my husband and I both took Thrive for 2 months (pills + shakes + patches – basically the most expensive configuration they offer), and didn’t notice anything positive resulting from it. In the beginning, he experienced a boost in energy for an hour or two after taking the capsules and shake and putting on the patch, only to crash midday. (Supposedly, Thrive is supposed to create sustained energy throughout the day – or so we were told.) I experienced the same boost in energy, for about the same amount of time in the morning, but it was most definitely the jittery, anxious-feeling type. It made me feel a little like a crazy person, and eventually discovered it was likely the pills.
I also experienced an increase in headaches. It did curb my appetite in the morning; the shake was a sufficient breakfast for me and held me over just fine until lunchtime. After the first few days of choking it down, it began to less like chalk and I actually began looking forward to it. I can’t say I really lost any weight as a result of the program. Not that I am overweight, but maybe creeping up there a bit after a couple babies. ;)
Anyway, it’s not a product I would recommend to friends on really any front. I definitely didn’t enjoy whatever it was doing to my head while I used it, and my husband agrees. For me, it was the equivalent of taking a few simultaneous shots of espresso and paying out the nose for it.
On another note, holy cow, those distributors … intense! That’s all I’ll say on that! ;)
Thrive=No Good
I took Thrive for two weeks and all I experienced was diarrhea and cloudiness. My mother and sister had the same symptoms! Don’t waste your money or time! Especially since they have no number to call to complain to, lol.
I was a promoter. Key word “WAS”. I still have my account. My testimony and experience with the product, for those of you who care or don’t care was incredible. I am very sensitive to meds and vitamins by the way. I felt the energy within the first 30 minutes of taking the capsules. I was literally talking to myself in the shower. You see, for approximately 6 yrs, I had been having issues with dislocated ribs around the left side in my back close to my shoulder, causing other issues also. Constant neck pain, shoulder pain, and back pain. My clavicle is even crooked because my body has tried to accommodate and alleviate the pain itself. Pinched nerves nonstop, muscles spasms galore. Geez, it’s all been a pain!!! Expensive, frequent, inconveniencing chiropractor visits. In 30 minutes 2 capsules, a lifestyle mix, and 1 patch took that pain from my body. Seriously?! Yes, seriously. I’ve had 1, not 2 or 3 or more, but 1 chiropractic visit since February 2014. It has been fantastic!!! If I start to ache even the slightest bit in my shoulder, I just slap a patch on the area. It does help because of the white willow bark. Acid reflux since I was 14, where did that go to? I don’t have to take the products as frequently, but I do, on occasion, take them. Not everyone will have my type of experience, or anyone else’s for that matter. If you haven’t tried it, you should. If you have and didn’t like your experience, don’t ruin someone else’s. It’s not for everyone. You don’t have to love it like I do. It helped me out. Let someone else have their turn. Oh, and by the way, I stopped promoting because I don’t have time. Single mom, 3 kids, full time job that I love. Thought I’d share!!!
Christina Blevins said: “I felt the energy within the first 30 minutes of taking the capsules.”
Sounds like two possibilities, neither of them good: (1) it’s all in your head; or (2) they spiked the caps with a stimulant.
Christina Blevins said: “Acid reflux since I was 14, where did that go to?”
Dunno. Can be sure though that slapping on a placebo patch and taking MLM snakeoil caps isn’t going to affect GERD.
Christina, your experience sounds similar to my sister’s. And I had hoped to God (literally) that I would have it too! I knew my husband would be having knee surgery Oct. 5, and I was hoping by now I would moving without discomfort, happy as a clam. Unfortunately, whatever positives I experienced wore off and yesterday I was at the doctor getting a back x-Ray, steroid Pak, Naproxen and making physical therapy appts. Needless to say, I am not taking great care of my hubby, or looking forward to retirement.
.
I’m sincerely glad you are feeling better–your experiences sound terrible. And normally, I would step back from this and let people do what they will. But my sister is important to me and if there is a possibility this could be dangerous–I want answers! If it proves to be OK, then fine. I may have to block my sister’s posts–because they border excessive (LOL).
Bottom line—even if this is all they say it is—I’m also concerned about the professionalism and care of people’s health. I KNOW the packages have the small print saying to consult your doctor if you have health problems, but I only see and,hear from people “OMG–TRY this—it’s done this and this and this for me!” This is irresponsible! Herbs and natural ingredients are nothing to play around with. Does something in Thrive work as a blood thinner? I take a Baby Aspirin a day cuz I have to. Now I could have 2 ingredients thinning my blood—could be a problem!
Finally, my enthusiastic sister’s son is an ER doctor. When she approached him about it—he was skeptical and warned her to at least keep an eye on her blood pressure. After a few weeks –he decided to try it. Within a few days he stopped because it enhanced his indigestion problem. So it helped your acid reflux, but messed with his indigestion, and I’ve read it gave a lot of people heartburn–including me. But we are told to “keep going, drink more water, spread it out, move it closer, take one, take two……..”
This seems like a very slippery slope.
For all of the people who have asked why it is pain-relieving= Please understand that the ingredients in Thrive increase your bodies production of the catecholamines (adrenalin, nor-epinephrine and dopamine). These substances are pain relieving. Furthermore, anything that ramps up your catecholamine production will naturally cause Cortisol levels to rise as well since Cortisol “cleans up the mess” (inflammation) that high adrenalin causes. In addition, the appetite suppression created by this leads to a lowered caloric intake (and weight loss) and a sustained low-calorie semi-starvation diet also increases adrenalin output as the body converts is tissues into energy (calories).
So yes, this is one possible way to achieve pain relief but it is BY NO MEANS “curing” it or working on “the root cause”. It is a temporary masking of symptoms caused by an increase in adrenalin (mostly) and cortisol. The effect will wear off as most people’s bodies cannot sustain an extended high output of these substances without crashing. There is a term for this. it is called a “catecholamine honeymoon”.
I worry for the people who take this stuff for years. they will be no better off than people who took large quantities of speed and diet pills. Most people’s endocrine and nervous systems cannot sustain that.
Sarah said: “For all of the people who have asked why it is pain-relieving= Please understand that the ingredients in Thrive increase your bodies production of the catecholamines (adrenalin, nor-epinephrine and dopamine). These substances are pain relieving. Furthermore, anything that ramps up your catecholamine production will naturally cause Cortisol levels to rise as well since Cortisol “cleans up the mess” (inflammation) that high adrenalin causes.”
I don’t buy any of that. There’s no evidence that the patch is “pain relieving” or that it affects catecholamine or cortisol levels. The company doesn’t even advertise the patch as a pain reliever; it’s marketed for weight management, although there’s no conceivable means by which the product would have any effect on body weight either. It’s nothing more than fool’s-bait for a pyramid scheme.
https://le-vel.com/Products/THRIVE/DFTUltra
Vogel,
When people have feelings of euphoria, a racing heart, and a suppressed appetite that these are, generally speaking, signs of increased catecholamine production. If you note the commonly reported negative side-effects on Thrive it lists a racing heart, heart palpitations, anxiety and insomnia- common side effects due to ingesting speed-like substances. These tend to be the reasons people are wary of this product and why the people who push thrive will give (misguided) recommendations to take less or do different combinations of the pills/patches/shakes etc…So as far as “evidence” as to thrive’s possible effects on certain people seems to have something to do with the physiology of stress hormone production (ie increased catecholamines and cortisol). LIke I stated in my first comment weeks ago, it would be far cheaper to take diet pills, speed, ADHD medication etc.. than to take Thrive. I understand that you believe all of its effects to be placebo and I do not disagree that there is a big placebo effect going on. However, Thrive does have ingredients in it that are known to cause symptoms associated with high adrenalin/high catacholamines. This would not be the first time a “natural product” had the ability to act like speed.
I agree with Vogel, very well said!
Vogel- The only evidence of the patch being pain-relieving that I was speaking to were the reports by certain individuals stating that their various pain ailments disappeared while on Thrive. They were wondering why and I was simply giving an explanation of the physiology of stress hormones and catecholamines. This is the only feasible explanation as to why people experienced pain relief while on this.
What led me to suggest that this was the mechanism involved in said pain-relief was based on other commonly reported experiences and side effects, specifically, feeling of Euphoria, a racing heart, anxiety and insomnia. These are common symptoms of elevated catecholamines and this would certainly not be the first time that a “natural” herbal product caused elevated catecholamines. Im sure you remember the Ephedra scare.
It is also possible that thrive has laced their product with something pharmaceutical.
This product is continually pushed on me by people who appear to be in a high-adrenalin state. (people who are hyper, jumpy, irritable, anxious and very thin). So it is a theory of mine based on my experience with Thrive pushers.
Sarah said: “Vogel- The only evidence of the patch being pain-relieving that I was speaking to were the reports by certain individuals stating that their various pain ailments disappeared while on Thrive. They were wondering why and I was simply giving an explanation of the physiology of stress hormones and catecholamines. This is the only feasible explanation as to why people experienced pain relief while on this.”
Occam’s razor! The simplest explanation is that they’re straight up lying.
“It is also possible that thrive has laced their product with something pharmaceutical.”
I certainly wouldn’t put it past them to do so, but even it were spiked, it’s unlikely that there would be significant absorption of any of the ingredients across the skin.
Sarah said: “What led me to suggest that this was the mechanism involved in said pain-relief was based on other commonly reported experiences and side effects, specifically, feeling of Euphoria, a racing heart, anxiety and insomnia. This product is continually pushed on me by people who appear to be in a high-adrenalin state. (people who are hyper, jumpy, irritable, anxious and very thin). So it is a theory of mine based on my experience with Thrive pushers.”
Yeah, but that kind of delusional euphoria you speak of is common to virtually all MLM sales people; even those who sell cosmetic products. The simplest explanation is that it’s a result of the rah-rah groupthink “training” methods employed by MLMs rather than anything pharmacological.
I have never met someone selling Mary Kay, Rodan + Fields, Arbonne, Usana vitamins, The Pampered Chef, Kangen Water, True Romance etc… who behaves, and has the physiological symptoms, of someone selling and consuming Thrive. Forced enthusiasm and a false sense of optimism are not the same thing as extreme Euphoria.
The makers of Thrive, and its pushers, are cagey about exactly what ingredients are in their “patented proprietary ingredients”. I would not be surprised to find that it contains L-tyrosine or something that can stimulate production of large amounts of nor-epinephrine and dopamine (Depending on your particular enzyme pathways) Something as seemingly innocuous as L-tyrosine mixed with Garcina Cambogia and green coffee bean extract could produce heart palpitations, tachycardia, anxiety, high blood pressure, insomnia, diarrhea and other unpleasant (and dangerous) symptoms. I will not be surprised if soon we are hearing reports of serious things happening to people who take this. Cardiac events and such.
Anyway, this is likely more energy and effort than Thrive deserves on my part. I’ll continue to warn my patients and colleagues about this product because I feel that it is dangerous. There are far better, and safer, ways to alleviate pain and lose weight than by ingesting this mysterious concoction. I’ll leave it to Lazy Man to inform people about how it is also a huge waste of money.
You had me until “I think consumers should make better use of $2000 a year” yes don’t we all. That’s an opinion statement.Then Prada, Louis, Gucci and Versace wouldn’t exist! Don’t you know you can get the same bag at Target!!?? If people want to spend their $$ on high priced supplements who are we to judge? If someone believes something makes them feel better, as long as they are not breaking the law (I don’t think taking high priced supplements is illegal just yet) let them. As far as the pyramid or MLM scam-lets look at Mary Kay, Avon and Tupperware. Those companies have been around a lot longer then LE-vel so I’m sure more people have been scammed. Mary Kay since 1963! Lets help those ladies first. I want to believe that we are not all unintelligent Americans. Marijuana is illegal on a FEDERAL level. California just made marijuana legal to sell in “approved establishments”. I heard it makes you feel good!! And yet we still have the right to say no thank you.
Ana Ackerson,
You should probably spend a minute and realize that you are commenting on a personal finance blog which was started to help people reach early financial independence. As such, I take the opinion that buying a Prada bag is not helpful to the cause (unless such status symbols are necessary to earn you an income). High priced supplements are not status symbols necessary to earn an income and thus don’t even fit into the narrow range of why someone would overpay. You can read more here: Fashion, Function, and Frugality
It looks to me that Harper’s Magazine revealed Mary Kay to be a pyramid scheme years ago.
Why not help all people at the same time?
Thank you for taking the time to post this article. A financial man gave me the best advice about taking 10 percent and storing it away for your retirement before you do anything else. I am a TNBC warrior and I have been looking into a healthier lifestyle. Someone suggested Thrive to me. But I love to do my research first! Thank you again!
Ana said: “Then Prada, Louis, Gucci and Versace wouldn’t exist! Don’t you know you can get the same bag at Target!!??”
No, you can’t. Target does not sell luxury brand handbags.
Ana said: “If people want to spend their $$ on high priced supplements who are we to judge?”
It’s perfectly reasonable to pass judgement. It’s not merely a question of wasting money. The issue is deceptive advertising that leads people to the false belief that these overpriced supplements will do things that they cannot do. If after being fully informed, people are still willing to waste money on inert placebos, then that’s their prerogative.
Ana said: “If someone believes something makes them feel better, as long as they are not breaking the law (I don’t think taking high priced supplements is illegal just yet) let them.”
You’re confusing the issue, which is that scammy MLM supplement companies mislead consumers into believing that these supplement products are medical miracles. That is against the law. It’s appalling to suggest that we should be indifferent to fraud and deception.
Vogel: it appears your very good and cutting and pasting comments but not very good at connecting the dots. My simile statement about the handbags was stating that handbags serve the same purpose, to carry your things, whether Gucci or target brand. Just as lazy man compared the supplements of thrive to Kirkland brand. The choice should be obvious right? However I cannot take a supplement with iron in it-so I hope I’m not chastised for picking a different one. And “gasp” I use Doterra!!! What’s good for the goose? Just as many choose to carry the Gucci instead of targets brand. And it seems you have a hard time separating a product with its marketing techniques. Again my opinion is that someone may love a product, overpriced or not, and not have to agree with its marketing techniques or schemes if you will. I’m sure if we dug deep enough we would find something wrong with every company that sells a product we buy… shop at Walmart lately? Heard of wage inequality? So please show me the links where you are actually doing something to change the laws of MLMs if that’s where your passion is. Mine is volunteering for an organization that helps victims of human trafficking, I can provide the link. DOING SOMETHING is greater then SAYING SOMETHING… cut and paste that.
OMG Ana, you use Doterra? Did you not read this: http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/doterra-essential-oils-scam/
Ana said: “My simile (sic) statement about the handbags was stating that handbags serve the same purpose, to carry your things, whether Gucci or target brand.“
That’s not what you said. You said that you could get “the same bag” as Prada, Louis, Gucci and Versace at Target. If what you really meant is that all bags serve a similar utilitarian purpose then it was a vapid comment. You’re trying to pass-off a Kia as a Ferrari. The differences between the two are tangible and yet there is nothing about Thrive that makes it a premium quality or prestigious product. It’s mundane pyramid scheme crap sold at an exorbitant price.
Ana said: “Just as lazy man compared the supplements of thrive to Kirkland brand. The choice should be obvious right?”
Absolutely! The reputable sanely priced retail brand is the obvious choice over a hyper-inflated pyramid scheme snakeoil brand any day.
Ana said: “And “gasp” I use Doterra!!!”
So what? You’re a chronic sucker? You must live in Utah.
Ana said: “Just as many choose to carry the Gucci instead of targets brand.”
Stop comparing Thrive to Gucci. It’s more like a shoddy black market knockoff sold at fly-by-night stand in a back alley.
Ana said: “And it seems you have a hard time separating a product with its marketing techniques.”
No not at all. In this case they’re both offensive and predatory.
Ana said: “ “If we dug deep enough we would find something wrong with every company that sells a product we buy”
This article isn’t about other companies or products. It’s about Le-Vel/Thrive. We’ve certainly found a lot wrong with it. If you want to try to find out things that are wrong with other companies and post your insights somewhere other than here, then knock yourself out
Ana said: “Heard of wage inequality?”
Yes. Have you looked at an MLM income disclosure statement lately? There’s been no worse example of wage inequality in an industry since antebellum cotton plantations.
Ana said: “ “So please show me the links where you are actually doing something to change the laws of MLMs if that’s where your passion is.”
How ridiculous! This article is a critique of Thrive, not a site for MLM legal reform initiatives.
Ana said: “ “Mine is volunteering for an organization that helps victims of human trafficking, I can provide the link.”
Why would we want to see a link about that? Is Le-Vel engaged in human trafficking too?
OMG? Really lazy man? How old are we? You’re very sure of yourself aren’t you? OMG lazyman your article on Doterra changed my LIFE! I’m never ordering it again and telling ALL my friends to do the same! Is that what I’m supposed to say on this site?? I know your here to educate-thank you. Those that can’t DO, teach, right?
Vogel-you seem bitter.. maybe its all of those late nights breaking down the ingredients in Thrive. Has your official report came out yet? Please post when you have it I would love to see what stimulants its laced with, or the revelation that the patch is a placebo! You must have a very scientific background to know that the capsules are filled with crap. Is that a new term in the chemistry world? I’m sorry I missed the point that this was a critique of Thrive-whose? Yours? Should this blog say lazy man and Vogel? So no one else can have an opinion it seems unless its yours. Point received.
Ana said: “Vogel-you seem bitter.. maybe its all of those late nights breaking down the ingredients in Thrive.
So, because you got schooled, you’re being snotty and resorting to witless personal attacks. Exactly what I’d expect from an MLM shill who’s getting shellacked and has no hope of making a cogent rebuttal. BTW, it’s you who seems to be bitter; seething in fact.
Ana said: “Has your official report came out yet? Please post when you have it I would love to see what stimulants its laced with, or the revelation that the patch is a placebo!
WTF are you talking about? I never said anything about writing a report. Sarah said that she thought the product was spiked with a stimulant, based on the effects she says she witnessed in users of the product. I simply pointed out that spiking in the supplement industry is not uncommon, and that ephedrine and sildenafil have been used as adulterants in many cases reported by the FDA. I also pointed out that I didn’t think spiking was responsible for the effects to which she was referring, given that absorption across the skin is typically poor.
As for the patch producing a placebo effect, that’s one reasonable explanation that would account for the highly implausible, vague, secondhand accounts of the patch having analgesic effects and promoting weight loss.
But, since these types of fraudulent therapeutic claims are made chronically by distributors of MLM supplement products, an explanation that’s more likely than the placebo effect is that distributors are just straight up lying.
“You must have a very scientific background to know that the capsules are filled with crap.”
Maybe I do, but all it takes is reading the ingredient panel.
https://le-vel.com/Products/THRIVE/DFTUltra
“Should this blog say lazy man and Vogel?”
No. It’s Lazy Man’s blog. My name appears in the comments section. That’s good enough for me. Why would you ask such a pointless question?
“So no one else can have an opinion it seems unless its yours. Point received.”
Nope, and that’s another stupid question on your part. You’ve been perfectly free to express your opinion, now matter how vapid, just as I am perfectly free to counter it with facts and reasonable arguments. It appears that you are resorting to playing the victim because you’ve run out of ammo and have nothing of value to contribute.
Vogel- if I “got schooled” you would have changed my thinking. You didn’t. If you want people to listen to you and take you seriously you need to tone down your aggressiveness. You critiqued every person who had something to say with your demeaning quote unquote. I came on this site because it was the only one that has reviewed thrive (that I saw right way)I was interested too because it was all over social media. I don’t know what your credentials are and was looking for more insight from lazy man. You swooped in first, again with your demeaning quote unquote. How is that valuable? To you? Does that make you feel good? You want to “school” people? You have a sick since of purpose. I never asked you to comment on my comment. Like you said I should feel free to express my opinion (I’m guessing that’s what you meant) but if one is constantly attacked it does leave quite the bitterness don’t you think? Your responses are not helpful-they are downright ugly and degrading. Yes you spot your comments with intelligent information but your presentation needs work. You just sound like an ass who always has to be right. I’m sure I’m not the first person whose told you that. But good luck to you. Hopefully I “schooled” you a little.
And just a small hint for you Vogel -since you need it spelled out…. I’m not looking for a reply, it will just make you look like more of an ass.
Ana, you’re not even talking about Le-Vel/Thrive anymore, even though it’s the only subject here that matters. Instead, you’re resorting exclusively to ad hominem attacks. If all you want do id bitch about me, you should go start your own Vogel blog instead of wasting white space here.
And yes, you got schooled. But you’re a really bad student, figuratively speaking.
Myself, my husband and my mom have all been on thrive for about 6 months now. I have tried many supplements (whatever is on sale or had a coupon for) and nothing has given me more lasting energy then thrive. After month two I started getting paranoid about feeling so great, so at my next doctor appoint I took the shake and capsule pack to have her check the ingredients. She said its more than likely the natural caffeine and that as long as I’m not loading up on the coffee (which I stop drinking completely) I should be fine. She ran some blood work to make sure my counts were good. They were great! My doctor told me to keep up the good work! The plan has assisted me with curbed cravings and enough energy to workout after my full time job for the military. Everyone I come in contact with that is trying thrive or has tried it have loved it. Some just can’t afford it but wish they could. If someone asks me about what I’m doing, I tell them. But I can only speak for myself. Yes it is expensive, but if the other vitamins made me feel half as good as the Thrive, trust me I’d be on them. There is also a break down available of the propriety blend-just have to ask! They have a great support service. I had to budget for the lifestyle change I was making and I’m doing something that makes me feel great. My husband and mom have very similar testimonies, but that’s their story to tell. Just thought I’d share. Have a blessed day?
So you are telling me that it is caffeine (or possibly ephedra as some suggested) that is all it is. Great, I have an article to help you get caffeine extremely cheaply: How Much is Your Caffeine Costing You? I just saved you a ton of money.
Now that I saved you that money, Kayla, you re-allocate your budget and make even greater lifestyle changes.
You’re welcome.
Kayla I think that’s the smartest comment I’ve heard in this cluster @#$%-see your doctor! Trust your doctor. Lazy man just tried to push caffeine pills on you! Run far far away. Unless LM you just forgot to list those important 3 letters just past your name?
Ben,
Nothing wrong with seeing your doctor, but you should probably only bother him/her with legitimate questions. Do you think that everyone who goes to Starbucks first stops by their doctor before ordering a coffee? What about people ordering a Diet Coke at a restaurant?
They should all go visit their doctor?
If you feel that’s the case, health insurance would cost 50 times more than it does now… and it already far too high. And if you want to be honest with your comment, Ben, why not acknowledge that she did consult her doctor and was told that Thrive’s effects was probably caffeine. So why are you flying off the handle of substituting caffeine for caffeine in a way that would save consumers tons of money?
In earlier comments at the first of October Halloween Whopper said he was getting the results of the capsules, what happened? Would really like to know what’s in those things, or were they legit and he didn’t want to post that. I think that would put all this crazy to rest. If you really did all your research lazy man , isn’t this an easy fix? Put this to bed and get those Pills analyzed.
Thanks so much for this information. I was a few steps away from putting this into my daily life. Now…. I know what to do. Exercise, eat less and better, and laugh and love alot. The rest will just take shape.
So when talking about this company and other mlms through various comments you talk about price gouging the consumer. Jacking up the prices so the poor people at the bottom get ripped. Don’t most companies give free or discounted product to their employees? Wouldn’t alot of things be cheaper if the same type thing wasn’t “allowed”. Airlines for instance, employees fly free their families fly free so many buddy passes to boot, while we poor consumer pay quite the pretty penny for a polyester seat, no meal and more money so our bags can come too. So I can’t really see that as a valid point to target MLMs. And no I don’t work for one.
Miranda,
When MLMs/pyramid schemes have extremely high-priced products, it becomes nearly impossible for distributors to make a legitimate sale. However, the pursuit of the “business opportunity” means that the distributors have to pay the high prices. Thus the general tendency is to push the “business opportunity” of recruiting people into a pyramid scheme to make money.
Other companies may give out free or discounted product to their employees, but their employees actually perform a service for the company other than pyramid scheme recruiting. For example, if McDonalds offers employees a discount on burgers during his/her shift, the employee is making burgers, cleaning, running the cash register, etc. Even giving salesmen discounted product would be fine, but you’d want to make sure that the salespeople are earning straight commissions and no recurring income from pyramid recruiting.
The employee discount thing is also very different in MLM. If you want to get it at McDonalds, you have to earn it by passing the job interview and working the hours at the facility. In MLM, you often just sign a paper and they give you a discount. That’s not earning the discount in any way. It doesn’t make any sense.
Vogel, Your insistence that the effects of Thrive have to be placebo because part of the delivery is via a patch is a little myopic. For one, Thrive involves taking pills and drinking shakes. The patch is only one part of it. Secondly, things can be absorbed via the skin very easily if something like DMSO is being used to carry it. We use hormone patches, morphine patches, nicotine patches etc… and there are no doubts about the effect. Certainly not placebo.
Like I said before, there are a lot of substances that can have a stimulant effect in the body, ESPECIALLY in certain people with specific physiology. Certain B vitamins can cause someone to have euphoria, insomnia and a racing heart. I have had patients who have severe tachychardia because of taking L-tyrosine, adrenal glandulars and other such things. So Thrive’s products might really be clean of pharmaceutical stimulants and still causing stimulant effects. In my opinion, this would largely account for while a handful of people say that it does give them lasting energy and that they feel well. Occasionally people do respond very well to vitamin substances and glandulars. It is just hard to control the dose when you are working with these things vs pharmaceuticals. I still think that there are cheaper ways of getting these results (more energy, weight loss, better moods) and safer ways (ways to do it without having tachychardia, insomnia etc…) I am also against MLM’s and would never get involved with one since it feels like it violates my hippocratic oath.
It might be worth getting a free sample and trying it yourself to see what happens. I would be very curious to see what your reaction is. Genuinely. I would try it myself, for experimental purposes, but I have a heart condition that precludes me from taking any stimulants.
I may have to re-read what Vogel wrote, but I think he was referring to the Thrive Patch. When I wrote the article, I made it a point to compare the Thrive Patch to the Dove Patch to show the placebo effect in a patch.
Vogel has presented himself here as an expert in 8 years of comments. I’m fairly certain he has mentioned numerous times (with supporting evidence) that supplement companies spike consumables with ephedra.
You can not conclude the Thrive Patch is not a placebo just because nicotine patches exist. It would be like concluding that the Dove Beauty patch was not a placebo for the same reason. Are there double-blinded placebo controlled trials of the Thrive Patch? If so I couldn’t find them.
Sarah, if you’ve taken a Hippocratic oath, it might be wise to shed your anonymity so that we can evaluate your credentials. I can’t believe someone who has taken such an oath is leaving comments that is using unscientific anecdotal evidence for her conclusions as you have done. I could ignore that, but you compound your scientific error by suggesting that someone take the product to “see what happens.”
You obviously know that his sample size would be insignificant (n=1) and no one immune to the placebo effect. Why not be more productive and demand that Thrive put together a large-scale, properly blinded, clinical-trial to show the safety and efficacy of the product. That’s just standard operating practice for a start of determining what works.
Sarah said: “Vogel, Your insistence that the effects of Thrive have to be placebo because part of the delivery is via a patch is a little myopic.”
Except I insisted nothing of the kind. I simply said that the placebo effect is a plausible explanation for everything that straight up lying alone doesn’t account for, and I attribute more of the claims to the latter, based on a long and consistent history of supplement MLMs making unfounded medical claims. When you mischaracterize my clearly stated POV it’s a lot worse than myopic.
Sarah said: “For one, Thrive involves taking pills and drinking shakes. The patch is only one part of it.”
So what? We weren’t talking about pills and shakes; we were talking specifically about the patches. Apparently you need to be reminded that you said the following:
“Vogel- The only evidence of the patch being pain-relieving that I was speaking to were the reports by certain individuals stating that their various pain ailments disappeared while on Thrive.”
Sarah said: “Secondly, things can be absorbed via the skin very easily if something like DMSO is being used to carry it.”
Yes, I know that, but again, so what? Thrive patches don’t contain DMSO so the point is moot.
Sarah said: “It might be worth getting a free sample and trying it yourself to see what happens. I would be very curious to see what your reaction is.”
What on God’s green earth would lead you to believe for even a second that I’d be interested in being your guinea pig? I mean seriously, WTF? You’re saying that the patches cause adverse effects, and yet you want me to use them so you can gauge my reaction? Do you have a head injury?
I won’t be sharing my personal information on a blog.
I would be thrilled if Thrive did a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study. Now that would be fascinating. Except that we know it will never happen. Much like Usana and Shaklee won’t be doing such studies.
Meantime, I’ll continue to NOT believe that people are having tachycardia, insomnia, anxiety, diarrhea and manic euphoria from a placebo effect. I’ve yet to meet anyone on this stuff that uses only the patch. Perhaps if I do a placebo effect might be more obvious.
Once again, it’s odd that we are continuing to debate given the fact that we agree that this is a bad product but simply disagreeing on *why* it’s bad. Good to remember we are on the same team here. Good day to you both.
There’s nothing wrong with using your name when you are firm on your belief. I know that sounds weird coming from someone who is himself anonymous, but I’m anonymous because I give detailed financial information about my life. It’s a lot deeper than just giving my belief on something.
When someone claims to have taken the Hippocratic oath, it heavily implies that you are a doctor. It would really help the team that we are on to say, “Dr. Sarah [blank] says.” That’s why I suggested you do it.
We are speculating on incomplete information. If everyone that’s on the patch is on other Thrive products, then any reaction could have nothing to do with the patch and instead may be due to the other products. I was presuming we were discussing people exhibiting this behavior who are only on the patch.
You are right that we’ll never see large-scale, randomized, double-blinded study. If the products are shown to be ineffective it would be like removing the curtain to reveal that the Wizard of Oz is just an ordinary man. If the products really worked, they’d have so much to gain, but they obviously don’t have the confidence in their products to put them to the test.
Just a few final thoughts-
Lazy Man, if we are going to stick to scientific rigor, It would likely be good not to link articles written by “Dr” Johnny Bowden who got his “PhD” from an online, unaccredited university- Clayton College of Natural Health. (the article from the Huffington Post on the wild claims of MLM’s).
Vogel, You really sound like someone who is suffering. From what, I cannot say and I’ll keep my speculations to myself. You seem incapable of having a discussion without taking an extremely adversarial tone, gas-lighting other commenters, and making ad-hominem attacks. The ad-hominem attacks seem like a favorite of yours to accuse others of making, right after you have provoked them with your highly adversarial tone. (or suggesting that they have head injuries, which isn’t actually something to joke about). I hope that you get some relief from whatever it is that ails you and perhaps learn to participate in discussions without becoming so impassioned that you lose your cool, over and over again. It does not reflect well on you, despite whatever expertise you might have.
Why are your thoughts “final” Sarah? That’s not what I want to hear from my teammate.
What problems do you have with Dr. Bowden’s article itself? There are few people in the scientific community concerned with the extreme miracle claims that come from MLMs. I thought that article was one of the best attempts cover it. If you have a better attempt let me know. I collaborated with a couple of anonymous scientists to put together this article on the American Institute for Technology and Science Education website.
There was another article on Money Magazine that dated back to 1987, which I can’t find anymore… even on archive.org. It called out how neither the FDA nor the FTC care about the claims… as they have bigger fish to fry (my characterization of it). It’s been documented for almost 30 years, but it isn’t something the media generally talks about.
So let’s give credit to Dr. Bowden for his contribution… and let’s not throw stones when we live in glass houses. Fair?
Sarah said: “Lazy Man, if we are going to stick to scientific rigor, It would likely be good not to link articles written by “Dr” Johnny Bowden who got his “PhD” from an online, unaccredited university- Clayton College of Natural Health…Vogel, You really sound like someone who is suffering. From what, I cannot say and I’ll keep my speculations to myself. You seem incapable of having a discussion without taking an extremely adversarial tone, gas-lighting other commenters, and making ad-hominem attacks. The ad-hominem attacks seem like a favorite of yours to accuse others of making, right after you have provoked them with your highly adversarial tone.”
Now you’re really embarrassing yourself. I’ve stuck to the facts since I started replying to your comments; you’ve provided none. If someone makes an ad hominem attack, rather than discussing the facts, it is entirely of their own choosing; not because I compelled them to do so. The real irony of your accusation is that you are now making ad hominem attacks and derailing the discussion by speculating that I am “suffering” and going after Jonny Bowden’s credentials; and to make matters worse, you’re engaging in another fallacy of logic (argument from authority) by pretending to be a doctor, despite your refusal to prove that you are in fact a doctor. At this point, it’s prudent of you to not do so, in light of the embarrassingly vapid comments you’ve made, which would undermine any reasonable person’s trust in your abilities as a practitioner of anything.
You’ve been beating a dead horse for quite some time now – i.e., discounting the possibility of the placebo effect based on your suspicion that the products might be spiked with some undeclared ingredient. It’s a go nowhere argument. The likelihood that the placebo effect would account for some of the claims about the products effects cannot be ruled out, and I agreed that it’s possible that the products are spiked with an undisclosed stimulant (although I pointed out several reasons why it’s unlikely that this would account for the physiological reactions you have allegedly witnessed among people who use/sell the product). It’s unclear what point you’ve been trying to prove since then, and now it seems your sole purpose here is to try to save face; but you blew that opportunity by following up with a bunch of nonsensical speculation, claiming to be a doctor (but refusing to prove it), and suggesting that people should take the product as an experiment despite the fact that you’re convinced it produces adverse effects due to the presence of undisclosed adulterants.
Sarah said: “I’ll continue to warn my patients and colleagues about this product because I feel that it is dangerous.”
Sarah said: “I am also against MLM’s and would never get involved with one since it feels like it violates my hippocratic oath.”
Sarah said: “It might be worth getting a free sample and trying it yourself to see what happens. I would be very curious to see what your reaction is. Genuinely. I would try it myself, for experimental purposes, but I have a heart condition that precludes me from taking any stimulants.”
So to recap, (1) you claim to have taken the Hippocratic Oath; (2) you’re convinced that the product is dangerous; and (3) you’re imploring me to take it to satisfy your curiosity, which you allegedly can’t do on your own because of fears that it will aggravate your heart condition.
How F-ed up is that? You already violated the Hippocratic Oath by intentionally directing me to use a product that you are convinced is harmful (violating the first tenet of the Oath, “first, do no harm”). But let’s get real; you’re not a doctor, so it may as well be a floor sweeper claiming to have taken the Oath. I’m curious though what would happen if one shoved a habanero pepper where the sun don’t shine, but my tushy is much too sensitive, so be a dear and help me satisfy my curiosity by volunteering to be the guinea pig.