Lazy Man and Money

Prime Day: What I’m Buying

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Since I’m likely to be updating this article throughout the day, if you are reading this in your email, you might want to click on the live web version with the updates. The deals in this article apply to Amazon Prime members.

Amazon Prime Day

There are going to be approximately 1.34 billion articles written about Amazon Prime Day (today). One reason is that there really are some great deals. Another reason is that Amazon pays a referral fee, so writing about it can make a writer a few dollars if you decide to buy. (It doesn’t get more full disclosure than that, does it?)

I’m usually not one for the hype, but I’ve had my eye on some things for awhile. If I’m going to buy something anyway, I might as well take advantage of a sale, right?

What I’m Buying on Amazon Prime Day

A Gift Certificate to Myself

Amazon is offering a free $5 in promotional credit when you buy a $25 gift certificate. This deal probably won’t last long since it is essentially a free $5.

Let’s Go Eevee for the Nintendo Switch

I don’t have a Switch, but the kids love Pokemon and a Switch is likely in the mix for Christmas. They’ll need a game and Let’s Go Eevee is $30 – a 50% savings.

Upgrading an Echo Dot (2nd generation) to the new Echo Show 5 for under $25

The Echo Show 5 is Amazon’s latest attempt to perfect the Alexa alarm clock. It has a 5″ screen for video and better audio than a normal Echo Dot. Normally it is $90, but for Prime Day it’s on sale for $50. However, when you trade in another Echo device (such as the 2nd generation Echo Dot that I have lying around), you get 25% off a future Echo device. Amazon does that off the top, so it’s a $22.50 promotional credit. You also get $5 for the Echo Dot itself, but the real value is that promotional credit.

You have to take a little leap of faith in trading in the device for the promotional credit, but a number of people on Slickdeals, including myself, are making it work without a problem.

The math looks like:
$90 – original price
-$40 – Prime Day discount
-$22.50 – the 25% promo for the trade-in
-$5 – Credit for the 2nd generation Echo Dot
Total = $22.50

Sold Out A FireTV and Echo Dot for $12

Normally this bundle would cost you $75 or so, but it’s just $12 (probably a pricing mistake) with a discount that appears at checkout. Click here to buy. It will sell out quickly, so just buy if at all interested.

I think one could easily resell them on Ebay in a few weeks to make $30 or so.

Amazon Fire HD 10

I’ve long said, You Should Consider Buying an Amazon Fire HD 10, because when it’s $100 (the lowest it usually ever gets), it is the best computing bargain around. Even at full price it is a very good value. It’s almost impossible to find a 10″ full high-definition tablet for under $200. Of course one of the reasons why it is so cheap is so that Amazon can sell you stuff.

On Prime Day, the Fire HD 10 will be back to it’s lowest price of $100 (buy it now at that price. However, you can also buy 2 for $180 or $90 each (just add them to the cart). That’s the deal that I’m looking at. With two kids, our tablet is getting a lot of use. The kids tend to want to play at the same time (monkey see, monkey do). That means someone is stuck with our 5-year old Nexus 7. That was a good enough tablet for the time, but it’s noticeably slow nowadays. It seem like people on Ebay on are still willing to pay $75 for it, so to get half our money back (and nearly the price of a bigger, newer Kindle Fire) after all this time is a big win.

Some could (correctly) argue that the Fire HD 10 is nearly 2 years old and that it runs an even older version of Android. I’m sure that Amazon will update it a couple of months after I buy these. It seems like technology is always like that.

While I’m worried about the kids getting glued to the tablet too much, I feel it is somewhat inevitable. At least so far, they’ve been using our existing tablet for learning apps like ScratchJr, DuoLingo, and ABC Mouse. You’d think that maybe one tablet would be best so that they’d each have one. However, I’ve been customizing ours with the Google Play Store and I’m looking forward to having my own set of apps like Gmail and WordPress.

I’ll be shopping with my Amazon Prime card for another 6% back.

A New Cell Phone

My Moto X Pure is old 2015 technology and getting really slow. So slow that even my wife says that I shouldn’t “cheap out” and get something really good. I think the most I should spend on a cell phone is around $300.

It looks like there are going to be some deals on Pixels and Nokias, but from what I’ve seen it’s nothing too amazing. Since I’m writing this before the deals go live, I’m speculating on news leaks, but I think the sources are trustworthy. I’m not sure if I want to pull the trigger on a Pixel 3, when the Pixel 4 will be released in a couple of months – making the Pixel 3 likely much cheaper.

If I find a cell phone that’s worth pulling the trigger on, I’ll update this article.

Update:

Now that the smart phone deals are out, I’m more impressed than I thought I’d be. There are some excellent Samsung, Motorola, and this very tempting top of the line LG G8. I didn’t think I wanted a LG phone and $500 is more than I wanted to spend, but in the world of $1000 flagships, a $500 one seems like a good deal. I am heavily leaning towards this phone due to the latest SnapDragon 855 chipset and 6GB of RAM. It should future-proof me for a few years.

The Samsung S9 and S10 are both on sale. The S9 is $349 while the the S10 is $599. One could make the argument that I should spend another $100 to get the S10, but the LG G8 seems to be close to the same quality from all the reviews I’ve read.

A Moto G7 for $199 is extremely tempting too. The G7 would be an upgrade in every way, at $100 under my budget.

It looks like there’s a very good phone for almost any budget… $200 (Moto G7, $350 (Samsung S9), $500 (LG G8), $600 (Samsung S10).

What would you choose?

Something Else?

I’ll be going through my wishlist (which mostly includes STEM games for my kids) to see if there are any big bargains. If I find anything that’s particularly good, I’ll update this article. If you are reading this in the morning, you might want to give it a refresh in the evening.

One thing that I’m considering is waterproof Paperwhite for $85. It’s perfect for the lazy river at the Aruba Marriott and lowest price it has ever been. I just get the feeling that my wife would get more use out of it than I would. I’m a slow reader and don’t have a couple of months to read a book. I’ll probably jump on this as well since there is a 25% cash back when using an Amazon’s Prime Credit Card. For around $60, it seems worth the plunge.

Finimize is your Essential 3 Minute Daily Finance Read

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Today I want to tell you about one of the three free newsletters that I read every day without fail. The other two aren’t money-related, so perhaps I’ll cover them another time. I’ve been a subscriber for more than 2 years. During that time’s it’s become incredibly popular with more than 400,000 subscribers.

You know those clickbait titles that make all sorts of crazy claims? This isn’t one of them. Finimize really is best described as “your essential 3 minute daily finance read.” (Those are my words, but I fully expect them to steal borrow them for their future marketing purposes.)

Did I mention that it’s free? I did? Good. It’s easy to miss that very important word with all the other information I’m putting out there.

When you sign up for Finizmize you’ll likely get an email like this one (though it’s possible the welcome has changed in 2 years):

Finimize Welcome

What do you get when you subscribe?

Every morning, I get a financial email that focuses on just two of the main things that happened in the markets. Sometimes it’s a stock. Sometimes it’s a snapshot of an economic report. It always has a section “Why Should I Care?” that explains in plain language what’s really going on.
This morning one of the focuses was on the odds of a recession. It cited this chart from the NY Federal Reserve. You’ll want to scroll down on that for the really amazing part. The Fed has pretty much nailed all the major recessions… and we’re at the point where it’s looking like the next one is upon us.

I know people have been saying that for years, but it’s “next level” to see an authoritative source present a 60-year historical chart showing that a recession is coming.

How could you use this information? Maybe you could take a more conservative investment approach? Personally, I’m going to be shifting some money into bonds. Another possibility is to sell some stock and hold some cash. I’m not going to suggest what you should do, but give you some ideas of what you could do.

The other thing that I love about Finimize is that it is only a 3-minute time investment. We’re all busy, and even financial nerds like me have to think twice about spending 20 minutes on an in-depth financial read.

I’ll highlight a few more things from Finimize in the upcoming weeks and months, but for now I’ll take their cue and keep it sort and sweet. Sign up with this link or the button below:


Join Finizmize!

How To Create Truly Passive Income With The Dividend Kings

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With the market hitting new highs, I’ve become cautious as I don’t believe stocks can continue to grow like they have been. I’ve become very interested in stocks that have a history of paying out dividend income in good times and in bad. I am fortunate to have dividend expert Bob Ciura of Sure Dividend contribute this guest post. The top pick has been on my short watchlist of 40 stocks for some time.

Passive Income Pyramid
My Passive Income Pyramid

Income investors are best served by focusing on stocks that pay high dividend yields with sustainable payouts and strong business models. The Dividend Kings are an excellent place to look for stocks with sustainable dividends, as these companies have maintained extremely long track records of dividend growth. Dividend Kings have raised their dividends each year for over 50 consecutive years.

One of the benefits of dividend stocks that you can hold for the long run is that they provide truly passive income. You need to do very little work other than occasionally checking in on the stock’s underlying business performance. Your dividend income just keeps rolling in. That’s why Lazy Man And Money puts investment income at the top of the Passive Income Pyramid.

The following three stocks have all increased their dividends to shareholders for at least 50 years in a row. Each is a member of the Dividend Kings, and has a dividend yield above 3%.

1. The Coca-Cola Company (KO)

Coca-Cola is the world’s largest beverage company. It owns or licenses more than 500 unique non-alcoholic brands, in over 200 countries around the world. Coca-Cola has a market capitalization of $220 billion, and the company generates annual revenue of $35 billion.

Coca-Cola’s massive and diversified beverage product line has helped the company in a difficult environment for soda. Consumption of soda has declined for an extended period in the United States, as consumers reach for healthier drinks with fewer calories and less sugar. Fortunately, Coca-Cola is right there to serve the changing consumer preferences with a wide product portfolio beyond its flagship sodas. In recent years, Coca-Cola has branched out to energy drinks, water, teas, juice, and other products, which have helped return it to growth.

Coca-Cola reported first-quarter earnings that beat expectations. Organic sales, which excludes currency fluctuations, rose 6% against a consensus for a 4% increase. Unit case volume was up 4% as weakness in North America was more than offset by international strength. Comparable earnings-per-share increased 2% to $0.48 despite an 11% currency headwind. Earnings-per-share included a $0.02 benefit from timing, primarily from the bottler inventory build related to Brexit. Coca-Cola expects 2019 to be another year of steady growth, with a forecast of 4% organic sales growth and 12% to 13% in total sales growth.

Coca-Cola is growing revenue, and recent acquisitions will add to that growth. Last year, Coca-Cola acquired Costa Coffee for $5.1 billion. Costa is a global coffee drink maker, and also operates a chain of nearly 4,000 coffee shops. Coca-Cola has expanded its beverage portfolio to include drinks that cater to the health-and-wellness trend, such as adding natural drinks like Kombucha. It also made an investment in sports drink manufacturer BodyArmor.

Coca-Cola has increased its dividend for 57 years in a row. The stock has a current dividend yield of 3.1%, and there should be continued dividend increases each year.

2. Emerson Electric (EMR)

Emerson Electric was founded in Missouri in 1890 and since that time, it has evolved through organic growth, as well as strategic acquisitions and divestitures, from a regional manufacturer of electric motors and fans into a $41 billion diversified global leader in technology and engineering. Its global customer base affords it $19 billion in annual revenue.

Emerson spent the last few years restructuring its business, pointing itself toward higher-growth areas while selling off businesses no longer deemed to be part of the company’s growth strategy. For example, in 2016 Emerson divested its network power and other power businesses for over $5 billion, which it used to reinvest in organic growth and acquisitions. Emerson utilized more than $2 billion on acquisitions in 2018, including the A.E. Valves acquisition and the acquisition of GE’s Intelligent Platforms business.

These moves have put Emerson back on track. Emerson reported strong results for the most recent quarter. Revenue increased 8%, while underlying sales rose 4%. Acquisitions contributed half of Emerson’s total revenue growth last quarter. Underlying sales growth was due to strength in the North America air conditioning and global professional tool markets. Operating cash flow increased 7% in the second quarter, while free cash flow rose 3% to $414 million. EPS came in at $0.84, up 11% compared with the same quarter last year.

These moves have paid off for Emerson, as the company expects 2019 to be a very strong year. Net sales are expected to increase 7%-10% for the year, with acquisitions contributing 5% of full-year sales growth. Organic sales, excluding the impact of foreign exchange, are expected to rise 4%-7% this year. EPS growth is expected in a range of 4%-8% for fiscal 2019.

For the full fiscal year, Emerson expects adjusted EPS in a range of $3.60 to $3.70. Still, fiscal 2019 will be another highly profitable year for the company, which fuels its long history of dividend increases. Emerson stock yields 3%, and the company has increased its dividend for 62 years in a row.

3. Federal Realty Investment Corp. (FRT)

Federal Realty is a Real Estate Investment Trust, or REIT, which means it owns real estate properties which it leases for rental income. Federal Realty primarily owns shopping centers. However, it also operates in redevelopment of multi-purpose properties including retail, apartments, and condominiums. Its major markets are Washington, D.C., New York, Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco, and Los Angeles. It also has properties in Miami and Chicago as a result of recent expansion. Federal Realty has a market capitalization of $9.9 billion.

Federal Realty reported first-quarter earnings that showed another quarter of steady growth. Funds from operation (FFO) per share was $1.56, in-line with expectations and up by 2.6% year-over-year. Total revenue was also up year-over-year by 3.4%. Meanwhile, same-store operating income increased 3.5% year-over-year, comparable portfolio leasing was at 94.6%, and achieved cash basis rollover growth of comparable spaces was 10%, reflecting a very healthy business. Due to the results that were relatively in-line with expectations, management maintained FFO per share guidance of $6.38 at the midpoint for the full year.

Federal Realty’s future growth will be based on raising rents on existing properties, as well as contributions from new properties. As a REIT, Federal Realty routinely acquires new properties, which means it is critical for REITs to have strong balance sheets and financial flexibility. Indeed, Federal Realty has a high credit rating of A- from Standard & Poor’s, which helps lower its cost of capital.

With an expected FFO payout ratio of 64% for 2019, Federal Realty should have little trouble continuing to raise its dividend going forward. Federal Realty stock has a 3.1% dividend yield, and the company has increased its dividend for 51 consecutive years.

This article discussed 3 Dividend Kings to fill out the top of your Passive Income Pyramid. To see our favorite dividend growth stocks today, start your free trial of The Sure Dividend Newsletter.

The Sure Dividend Newsletter includes our Top 10 dividend growth stock buys each month, a portfolio building guide, and more. As a bonus, Lazy Man & Money Readers can save $31 off on The Sure Dividend Newsletter by starting their free trial at this link.

Holiday Sundries: Mesh Wifi, Best Investment Idea, and No Camp

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I hope all my United States’ readers enjoyed their Independence Day holiday. The July 4th holiday is a good market for half of the year being completed. I’ll be reviewing my goals for the beginning of the year soon. I know I’m behind where I wanted to be with decluttering, but still ahead of where we’ve ever been, so that’s win.

Pell Bridge Sunset
The sunset view before the fireworks in Newport, RI

I hope to publish a financial update through the end of June in a few days. I ran some preliminary numbers while we are still waiting to receive rent checks and the numbers are looking amazing.

It’s a good thing too, because the past week was a really difficult one for us. There are some things that I can’t get into, but one of them that I can was a dog I was sitting on Rover. This puppy was kind-hearted, but it just chewed up everything. I couldn’t leave it alone for more than 5 minutes. Most of the time the dog sitting gig is great. However, not every job is perfect and this was a reminder of that.

I have serveral longer articles almost finished, but I didn’t want to get anything too deep due to the holidays. Instead, I’ll go with a few little thought nuggets.

Installing a Mesh Wifi System

I used to laugh at the idea of mesh wifi systems. I figure it just made sense to use an old router as a repeater. Maybe we have too many devices now, or maybe it’s that my recycled repeater router is 10 years old, but we’ve run into a lot of wifi problems in the house. I decided that life is too short to go through it with bad wifi. (I’ve been thinking that a lot lately.)

I did some research and it seemed to say that one product was the best. So I ended up buying a renewed/refurbished version of this Netgear Orbi RBK50 for around $200. Some mesh systems are $400, so hitting the $200 number was important to me. There’s also a new standard coming out soon, so I’ll feel better replacing a $200 system in a few years than I would if I spend $400. For now, I’ll hopefully be able to sell my old routers for $50 combined.

Unfortunately, the process of installing the Orbi requires a reboot of the cable modem. I rebooted my cable modem a few weeks ago and it took a call to my cable company’s customer support to resolve it. It turned out to just be dumb luck that it decided to work. This time my cable modem didn’t come back. It’s 6 years old, and I stored it in a drawer where it was likely overheating. I went to Amazon and bought a new one. In the meantime, I’m renting a combo router/wifi from my cable company that is terrible, but it at least gets us online.

Hopefully, I’ll be able to review the Orbi soon.

My Best Individual Investment Idea

Pell Bridge Night
A view of the same bridge at night.

In reviewing two years of stock picks it seems like my hand-picked value stocks far out-performed the market. I’m still the person who held onto oil and Twitter for years just to see it do nothing, so I don’t claim to be a stock picking wizard. I’m very much an believer in buy and hold index investing.

However, if you were to look at those articles in the past and how the stocks did, you might ask me, “What are some example stocks that are going to break out in the future?” Unfortunately, I don’t see any from the group that I track that seem particularly good. The closest I have is Kraft-Heinz (Nasdaq: KHC). It fits the model because the stock has been badly beaten (for good reason). It still pay for a very healthy 5.24% dividend, but that dividend may get cut in the future.

I think the company will figure things out and turn it around. It could be months or it could be years. I don’t think anyone’s crystal ball is perfect when it comes to picking company stocks.

If stock picking isn’t your thing, I’m planning to write something in the next week or two that will be of more interest to you. Here’s a preview: Bonds look to be a much better investment over the long term than I thought.

Keeping Kids Home During the Summer?

Joe from Retire By 40 is having a whole summer with his son. This struck me as odd as I grew up in an environment where kids went to summer camp. It was just what is done and I never gave it a second thought. When my kids were younger, I appreciated any time off I could get, because taking care of a 2-year old is much more tedious than a 7-year old. With our kids being a year apart, it was “double trouble.”

However, now that they are older and largely take care of themselves (not that they always want to), we could use the summer to do more family stuff during the week. I have largely ignored the cost of camp and let my wife handle it. However, it’s nearly $50 a day per child, so $100 for the two. The easy math shows that it is $500 for the week or $2000 for the month.

That’s a lot of money especially because it’s only 6-hour days. As soon as I drop them off, I feel like I’m picking them up again. I feel it’s important for them to have a camp experience and play with kids their own age in a fun environment that’s less structured than school. I also feel it’s important to me to still have some time to focus on work during the summer.

Maybe next year, we’ll do a 50/50 camp/home split – one week on, and one week off. There are some specialty camps that I’ve been looking at, but they are a little more money. It’s much more affordable to do 5 weeks of specialty camp and home with dad than it is to 10 weeks at general camp.

I’m coming up with this idea on the spot. I’ll have to see what my wife thinks of it.

Have yourselves a great weekend. I highly recommend Toy Story 4 if you want to beat the heat. I’ve also started the new season of Stranger Things on Netflix, but I’m sure some of you already finished it.

Your First Home Comes With Your First Mortgage – Here’s What You Should Know

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buying a home

Recently, I had a Twitter interaction that has had me thinking of going back to the basics in an attempt to reach some readers who may be towards the beginning of their personal finance journey. Around the same time, I had a guest post hit my inbox covering a topic that I had long forgotten – buying my first home. Enjoy this post from Lazy Man and Money reader, Ivana.

If you’re anything like me, you consider the purchase of your first home a milestone in your adult life. After all, nothing quite says “I’ve made it” better than owning a home of your own, and it signals a kind of stability that wasn’t really there in your younger years.

Of course, to get that far, you’ve got to get approved for a mortgage (unless you’re independently wealthy, and if so, I congratulate you). When I first went through the process, I hadn’t the faintest clue what I was getting myself into – and that’s a scary thought because my mortgage represents the largest single debt on my personal ledger.

As it turned out, I learned a great deal from the process. I just wish someone had sat me down and given me the lowdown on what to expect before I jumped in head first. If you expect to be in a similar position soon, you’re in luck. Here are some of the important things you need to know about getting your first mortgage, but didn’t even know to ask.

Lay the Groundwork, or Suffer the Consequences

The first bit of wisdom that I’ll impart here may seem obvious to some, but it never occurred to me before I applied for my mortgage: check your credit reports (all three, I’ll explain why later). The reason I say this is that your credit report may be hiding some surprises that you’d rather not encounter while sitting in front of a loan officer. In my case, I found out from my mortgage specialist that Experian was under the impression that I owed Verizon Wireless about $550 from an account I had closed in 2001. Interestingly, Equifax and TransUnion had no record of the balance.

It turned out that Verizon had not closed my account when I requested it, and instead let the balance continue to build until they sent it off to a collections agency. That agency had never contacted me and only reported the “debt” to Experian. The good news is that I was able to get it worked out and it didn’t impact my ability to qualify for a mortgage, but the lesson is clear: don’t let the fact that you’ve never paid a bill late fool you into thinking your credit reports are accurate. Make sure everything’s right in advance, and also do everything you can to lower your debt-to-credit ratio. Be aware that lenders extend the best offers to applicants with FICO scores of 720 or higher, so that’s where you’ll want to be before applying.

Choose a Mortgage, Don’t Let One Choose You

Another thing that I hadn’t considered when looking for a mortgage was just how many options there are. Seriously, if you’ve never shopped for a mortgage, you’ll likely be astounded by how many lenders there are out there. What’s even more shocking is that you’ll feel like you need an advanced degree to tell the difference between all of the mortgage products you encounter.

So first things first – learn all of the lingo and as much as you can about the various available mortgage types before you try to tackle a mortgage comparison on your own. You’ll need to understand not only the way interest rates work, but also what kinds of fees may be part of the loan (origination, title search, insurance), and any other closing costs that might (or might not) get rolled into your loan. Be aware that it’s going to seem like lenders go out of their way to make it difficult to compare these products, with opaque documentation and the like. Don’t be afraid to admit that you’re in over your head. Use a mortgage broker if you must. Whatever you do, make sure you understand your mortgage before you sign it – you’re going to have to live with it for a while.

Look Out For Gotchas

The last major thing I wish I’d been counseled on before getting my mortgage was all of the various little considerations that go into the mortgage package you’re offered. I call them “gotchas”, only because if you don’t understand what they are before you take out your mortgage, you don’t get a do-over. First, you’re going to want to make sure that your lender has approved you for a mortgage you can actually afford. That means informing them about your real monthly expenses as opposed to just what’s on your credit report. For example, if you have financial obligations like supporting an ailing parent, child support, or any other ongoing monetary responsibility, speak up! Remember that it’s the lender’s job to look out for their own interests – not yours.

Second, scour the details of your mortgage offer to look for things that may come back to bite you later on. The biggest one I encountered is known as a prepayment penalty. This common little trap is the lender’s way of extracting their pound of flesh from the borrower, come what may. The idea is, you’re bound by contract to only pay back a certain amount of your mortgage within specific timeframes. It exists so you won’t be able to save on interest by paying down your principal when you’re flush with cash. The thing many don’t realize, of course, is that such an arrangement doesn’t only apply to unexpected financial windfalls.

It also means (depending on the language in your agreement) that you’ll get hit with the penalty if you sell your home (since you’d be paying down the mortgage with the proceeds). It could also mean you can’t refinance if interest rates improve without paying the penalty, too. And if you’re thinking it’s no big deal, consider that the typical prepayment penalty is equal to 80% of six months’ worth of interest, which can be a hefty sum. The good news (if there is any) is that prepayment penalties typically phase out after one to three years, but if you’re subject to one, it may mean you’re trapped in your mortgage for that amount of time even if you have an emergency and need to sell your home.

Welcome to Homeownership

If you’ve made it this far, that should mean you’re at least twice as prepared to go out and get a mortgage than I was the first time out. Don’t rest on your laurels, though. What I’ve covered here is by no means encyclopedic – far from it. On the contrary, getting a mortgage is one of the most complex and consequential financial decisions anyone can make, and they come in all shapes and sizes.

That’s why the best bit of advice I could ever give to anyone who’s about to look for their first mortgage is to take their time. Do as much research as you can beforehand because the more you understand in advance, the less daunting the process will be. The results will be better, too. After all, the last thing in the world that anyone should want is to have the home of their dreams come with the mortgage of their nightmares. With any luck, I’ve done a bit to spare you that fate – the rest is up to you.

Editor’s View

My own experience was helped quite a bit by the support system I had. My mother was right there with me. My older brother was buying a house around the same time. One of my best friends, who I had lived with previously had recently bought his first house. My real estate agent was the spouse of a good friend. My closing agent was a groomsman at my wedding. It was almost impossible to imagine a better “Dream Team” of support.

Despite all that, I was still very nervous. So if you feel nervous, that’s to be expected. I hope you can surround yourself with at least a few people who have a lot of experience.

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