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Is Plexus a Scam?

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Just a few days after Thanksgiving this year, I got an email from a reader who I will call Xander. He noticed his friend network is getting drawn into an MLM called Plexus.

He asked me to write about it, because like many MLMs out there, they aren't well-covered by the media. Even when they are, such as Nerium, the companies fight hard to push such coverage out of site for those using search engines to find unbiased, reliable information.

I give this explanation for the reader who has probably read a dozen fake reviews by MLM distributors that generally go like this:

"Is [insert MLM product] for real? We have the truth. [Insert a bunch of misleading claims about said MLM product.] Yes [insert MLM product] 'works.' Now go buy it from me here! [Or alternatively, join my system to build your MLM here]"

So let's dig in:

Plexus Products

The first thing that I saw about the products was this warning letter from the FDA. A company has to do some very bad things for the FDA to smack them down like this. In this case the warning letter dated 6/30/14 points out:

"Your Fast Relief, ProBio5 and BioCleanse are not generally recognized as safe and effective for the above referenced uses and, therefore, the products are “new drugs” under section 201(p) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 321(p)]. New drugs may not be legally introduced or delivered for introduction into interstate commerce without prior approval from FDA, as described in section 505(a) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 355(a)]; see also section 301(d) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 331(d)]. The FDA approves a new drug on the basis of scientific data submitted by a drug sponsor to demonstrate that the drug is safe and effective.

Furthermore, your Fast Relief, ProBio5 and BioCleanse are offered for conditions that are not amenable to self-diagnosis and treatment by individuals who are not medical practitioners; therefore, adequate directions for use cannot be written so that a layperson can use these drugs safely for their intended purposes. Thus, these drugs are misbranded under section 502(f)(1) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 352(f)(1)] in that their labeling fails to bear adequate directions for use. The introduction of a misbranded drug into interstate commerce is a violation of section 301(a) of the Act [21 U.S.C. § 331(a)].

The violations cited in this letter are not intended to be an all-inclusive list of violations that exist in connection with your products. You are responsible for investigating and determining the causes of the violations identified above and for preventing their recurrence or the occurrence of other violations. It is your responsibility to ensure that all products marketed by your firm comply with all requirements of federal law and FDA regulations."

I'll attempt to translate. Three products were illegally marketed as drugs. They also had inadequate directions for safety. There might be other problems as well, so get your act together.

This is a level worse than what DoTerra received that was about the marketing on their distributor websites. Plexus Worldwide was cited for the claims on their own website, not just their Ambassadors.

To make matters worse for Plexus, The Australian Government says, "Plexus Slim Accelerator capsules and Plexus Slim Accelerator 3 Day Trial pack pose a serious risk to your health and should not be taken." I have added emphasis on my own.

This has lead to Australia banning the product. That should speak volumes.

Plexus Slim Reviews

I found a great website Plexus Point, that has one of the unbiased reviews that I wanted to write. I'm happy she already did for me. You can read her Plexus Slim Review here. I find it particularly refreshing that she starts off by saying all the glowing Plexus Slim reviews are Plexus ambassadors trying to get you to buy the product. My favorite part overall, was the part where it was banned from Amazon.

The Plexus Slim product review on Plexus' website itself is especially confusing. A bullet point on the front page says, "Fast and easy." Presumably this about the weight loss and not the product as the next bullet is, "Saves you time" which covers the supplement taking process. Yet the FAQ says: "A: It is a very subtle yet effective product. Most people begin to recognize benefits approximately 2 weeks after starting the product." Hmmm, "subtle", "takes 2 weeks..."

A quick look at Plexus's website shows that every product has an asterisk beside it. It's not clear what that goes to, but at the bottom of the page there is text that says, "Disclaimer: These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease."

We can simply review the FDA notice above about how products have to show their safety and effectiveness and Plexus Slim hasn't done that.

It is important to understand why MLM testimonials are pointless. It's also important to understand that there are many psychology tricks employed to make you think MLM products work, when they don't... and yes that article has been validated by unbiased, unpaid scientists acting as consumer advocates.

We don't have to look too far to see that Plexus isn't in compliance with the FTC guidelines of weight loss advertising. I found testimonials that didn't have any disclosures at all on the page. In the FAQs, I read many “your results will vary" type disclosures, which the FTC points out is not enough.

At nearly a thousand words, I feel this is pretty sufficient information on the products and the advertising of the products. I encourage you to go read the links cited, because in many cases, there's much, much more information there. If I tried to cut and paste that here, this page would be as long as a book. I don't think anyone wants that.

What About Plexus Company?

Plexus and Inc. 5000 rankings

I noticed that Plexus' website was quick to point out that it was Inc. Magazine's #8 company. It's no lie, you see it here. The problem is that few understand what that means.

I first encountered this claim in MLM companies in 2010, when I saw it with MonaVie... a company that imploded soon after the claim. I wrote about the ridiculous of the claim here: MonaVie and Inc. Magazine’s 500.

It turns out that methodology for the rankings is not what you might think it is. It relates to growth of revenue... which makes it ideally suited for pyramid schemes which exhibit "pop and drop" growth. Notice how MonaVie imploded soon after getting highlighted for the "pop."

Furthermore, the revenue itself isn't independently verified. It includes only privately held companies... which is why when you scroll through all the companies, you immediately think, "I haven't heard of any of these!"

The methodology back in 2010 only takes companies that submitted their data to Inc. 500/5000. It noted that "A number of companies had growth high enough to make the Inc. 500, the top 500 of the Inc. 5000, but did not complete the revenue verification portion of the application process in time for Inc. magazine’s deadline." There are companies left out of this list. It wasn't a priority for them to get a badge from Inc. Magazine, because they were too busy actually doing real work.

The Project Manager for Inc. 500/5000 wrote a comment saying that my criticisms were fair.

The point is that the badge is there to try to convince people that it is reputable, but even my article in 2010 pointed out several companies which had won Inc. badges were found to be fraudulent.

If you really want to read about Inc. Magazine and MLM (Plexus's business model), this is the article for you, Multilevel Mischief.

In summary, Inc. Magazine has not validated Plexus and it has actually condemned MLM.

What About the Business of Plexus?

Before you get into MLM, you should understand the basic problems with the business model. There's also a great article with more information here. In case you are too lazy to click. Some of the problems include:

  • No Moat To Protect Your Business - Anyone can be a Plexus Ambassador. You are literally competing against everyone. If it was a good path to financial freedom everyone would be doing it.
  • You Don't Control Your Business - If the FDA or the FTC shuts down Plexus for the claims they made, you are left holding the bag. If Plexus decides to change pricing, you are left trying to sell even more absurdly priced products. They may claim you are an independent distributor so that they don't have to pay you benefits such as vacation or health care, but you are beholden to them as any employee would be. In fact, their policies and procedures even has a section on termination.
  • No Supply and Demand - There's no control to pair supply with demand. You won't see a McDonalds on every block, because there isn't demand for it. They know enough to not create unnecessary supply that would lead to few sales and them going out of business. The MLM companies don't care about this. They'll create as many suppliers as they can, even if there's no demand for the products. This is why most MLMers find it difficult or impossible to sell their overpriced products. They then turn towards a pyramid scheme model of recruiting people into the business.

At the end of the day, it is really hard to even call MLM a business. The MLM companies like to because starting a business is a great thing that I highly recommend. However, you want to start a GOOD business not a TERRIBLE, FLAWED one.

As Mark Cuban says,

"There are no shortcuts. NONE. With all of this craziness in the stock and financial markets, there will be scams popping up left and right. The less money you have, the more likely someone will come at you with some scheme. The schemes will guarantee returns, use multi level marketing, or be something crazy that is now 'backed by the US Government'. Please ignore them. Always remember this. If a deal is a great deal, they aren’t going to share it with you."

That reminds me of the last point. Recruiting people into MLM is a self-defeating purpose. You are creating more salesmen, which compete against you in selling products. Typically they call this "building a team", but if you study pyramid schemes, it's also called, "growing my pyramid."

But is Plexus a Pyramid Scheme?

I've read the Plexus compensation plan (PDF) and it looks like one to me.

Let's take the example that they give:

"If you sponsored 3 Ambassadors and everyone in your organization duplicated your efforts, your organization would look like the one below:... [image not included]... This example is just a made-up scenario to show you how the Plexus Points would accumulate if everyone who came into your organization sponsored 3 new Ambassadors. In this example, if you were receiving Plexus Points 7 levels down, you would have a total of 4,893 Plexus Points. If the Plexus Points that month were valued at $3.25, you would earn $15,902.25 from your Plexus Points."

I didn't include the image, but I've been working on this for hours now and I gave you the direct link to the compensation plan to see it yourself. The image is the usual diagram of a pyramid scheme of 3 people, who recruit 3 people, who recruit people... for seven levels. It shows that if you build a pyramid of 3,279 people, you too can earn $15,902.25.

I presume that is per month, which is a nice annual income of nearly $200,000... for 1 of the 3,279 people in the group.

Of course if those 3279 are "AutoQualified" at $100 Personal Volume, they've paid $327,900 for the month or nearly $4 million dollars for that one person to get that $200,000 in annual income. Now the person earning $200,000 a year doesn't complain, and may even show off his fancy check to say how successful he is. What he did is create a financial loss for the vast majority of people who followed him.

And of course this example is very unrealistic, because it presumes that one person is going to be able to build a pyramid/team of 3279 people. For a medium sized city of 100,000 to be able to do that they'd have to recruit nearly the rest of the United States... 327 million people. It is unrealistic and unsustainable.

But don't take my word for it. Let's see what the FTC has to say:

"Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money... Avoid any plan where the reward for recruiting new distributors is more than it is for selling products to the public... One sign of a pyramid scheme is if distributors sell more product to other distributors than to the public — or if they make more money from recruiting than they do from selling."

That's three separate places in the same document that the FTC makes it clear... the majority of the money can't be made from a downline or it is an illegal pyramid scheme... not a legitimate MLM.

So why is Plexus giving us an example in their compensation where a great amount of money is made from a downline? Why aren't they giving examples of someone buying 1000 units of product from them and selling them each for a $15 gain to the public (people who are not affiliated with Plexus), and making $15,000 a month that way?

Plexus appears giving an example of someone running a pyramid scheme according to the FTC's guidelines.

Many distributors say, "How can this be? Law enforcement would shut them down!"

It turns out that the FTC doesn't have the budget to prosecute all the pyramid schemes out there. Years after USA Today asked if Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing was a pyramid scheme, the FTC was able to shut them down. The company called itself a legitimate MLM for 10 years! Millions of consumers dollars were lost and not recovered in the scam. It took a lot of states Attorney Generals offices, a leading national publication (USA Today), and the FTC to finally get it done.

That's just one of probably a thousand MLM companies that seem to fit the FTC's guidelines for being a pyramid scheme.

It's up to the consumers to be smart and avoid pyramid schemes. It's also why I'm here to help give you this information. Here's a video with some more good information on that:

Plexus Conclusions

Between the FDA warnings on the product marketing, the testimonials that violate the FTC guidelines, and what appears to be an illegal pyramid scheme (according to my interpretation of the FTC's guidelines), I think you know where I'm going with this review.

Save your time and money and move on.

Looking for another opinion? The unbiased Cooper Clinic explains why you should be cautious of Plexus products on WFAA ABC TV channel 8 on April 19, 2016

Hat tip on this: A Woman Scammed

Last updated on June 8, 2016.

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187 Responses to “Is Plexus a Scam?”

  1. Papa Hoover says:

    A Woman Scammed said: Papa Hoover GIVE IT UP honey! The ONLY way you make money in Plexus is if you have your auto ship on for $100 min. Sure, you can JOIN for the $34.95, but if you want to make money, you must be “ACTIVE”, aka: buying $100 min a month. So yeah, you DO have to buy product just as in any other MLM company if you want a commission.

    [Papa’s response: The more you post the more I think you failed as a Plexus Ambassador because of a total lack of due diligence.

    Tell ya what, for the month of July I won’t buy any product. If I don’t become commission qualified for July I will personally post on your website that you are correct, that Plexus is a scam and you can’t become commission qualified unless you buy product. I will provide my full name and Ambassador ID. If I do commission qualify you agree to take down your website. Agreed?]

    Obviously your Plexus business isn’t going very well or you wouldn’t have so much time on your hands to participate in so many blogs.

    Actions speak loudly for themselves.

    [Papa’s response: Actually it’s going OK. Only been an Ambassador for 3 months and surpassed 1000 PV for May. Net income has increased and I expect to break the $500 barrier next month. My up-lines seem to think I’m doing pretty good.]

  2. Papa Hoover says:

    Jen said: Again my point is Plexus wants you to sell it as a replacement cost. It’s irrelevant if that’s what you are doing. It’s obvious to me. Plexus says they have a product that gives you energy like an energy drink or coffee but it has no sugar or caffeine. So it’s “healthier” than coffee and energy drinks. To me it’s a replacement cost. As a sales strategy replacement cost makes more sense than perceived value (at least when referring to energy drinks or coffee). Why would you want your client to keep drinking “unhealthy” drinks when you have a “healthy” option to replace it. Not saying replacement cost is a good sales strategy just better than perceived value in this situation. I do not expect most customers to stop drinking coffee or energy drinks.

    To recap both sales strategies are bad.

    [Papa’s response: Jen when you say Plexus do you mean the company or an Ambassador? I’ve read a lot of company prepared sale literature and don’t recall ever seeing that. Would you mind providing a link to an official Plexus company document for reference. Thanks in advance.]

  3. Papa Hoover says:

    Texan Said: Sell enough Plexus product to customers so that the PV from those orders add up to 100 PV minimum. I’d recommend 2 or 3 customer in case one decides to cancel during the month.”

    [Papa’s response: Yes Texan “compression” is a reality of life in any MLM. People do actually decide Plexus is not for them and return their products for a refund.]

    What? Why would anyone cancel? Plexus products CURE people of: alcoholism, clinical behavior disorders, cancer, eczema, endometriosis, infertility, post-traumatic stress disorder, and numerous conditions. Lest we forget weight loss, ‘gut health’, male pattern baldness and more! The aforementioned claims, sans the male pattern baldness, have been posted by ‘Ambassadors’ for Plexus.

    [Papa’s response: Good job Texan let’s sign you up right now. Just kidding. If Plexus Ambassador’s are making these type of claims then they should be reported.

    You can call (480) 998-3490 to report Plexus Ambassador’s that are making invalid claims.]

    [Editor’s Response: I don’t think the public should bear the burden of herding the cats that Plexus unleashes on the world. I presume they have their own compliance group that does this. I also presume they are transparent in reporting the infractions that they are taking down as that would be an indicator of a “good” company in my opinion.]

    MLM’s are just a long con.

    [Papa’s response: I’ve only been an Ambassador for 3 months so maybe I just haven’t hit the “long con” point yet. I’ll let you know if/when I do tough.]

  4. Papa Hoover says:

    Lazy Man says: Hmmm, that sounds to me like there’s no real science behind and the benefits of its consumption varies by the individual… except that we know the benefits of toast. They are pretty universal. It would be weird if someone eating toast grew wings and flew… while another shrunk to the size of an ant.

    [Papa’s Response: Sorry Lazy Man, but I felt that the comment I made that contained that line warranted a FDA required disclaimer.

    Wow! Toast can have that effect on people? Maybe I’ll start an MLM selling “Super Toast” I will give you credit for the idea though.

    Just kidding. ;-)

    You made me chuckle on that one though.

    Thanks.]

    If you were to take those words a step further, they could describe a placebo pill that is known scientifically to contain no effective ingredient. Yet the benefits depend up on the individual. This sounds to me exactly like MonaVie’s “expensive flavored water” (not my words) and the number of crazy claims surrounding that.

    [Papa’s response: I’ve always been intrigued by the placebo effect. I currently work for a major Midwestern medical facility. I’ve had several opportunities to participate in different research studies over the almost 13 years I’ve been there and have had the experience of both side of the placebo coin. Once the placebo worked and once it didn’t. What I find most interesting about the research is that as a result of placebo research researchers are finding that a patients belief that a medication will work can have an effect on the efficacy of the medication. Here is just on of many articles available on the internet on the subject:

    http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/01/10/261406721/half-a-drugs-power-comes-from-thinking-it-will-work

    But let me ask you this. If a patient goes into a study and is cured by a placebo does it really matter to the patient that it was a placebo? I think not.]

  5. Papa Hoover says:

    It seems to me that regulators feel very differently about that than you do. In my opinion, it’s the furthest thing from splitting hairs as it speaks to whether the purchases are for qualification or retail sales. Personally, I’m fine with the approach that can’t mask a pyramid scheme which in my opinion means eliminating qualification.

    [Papa’s response: Oh I’m certain that an FTC regulator would agree with you 100%. ;-) BTW I not apposed to concept of eliminating qualification. What I’m struggling with is understanding your underlying concern and how eliminating qualification addresses it. If your concern is a high percentage of revenue coming from distributor, 95/5, (which I think it is, correct me if I’m wrong) then wouldn’t you also have to prohibit distributors from purchasing products. BTW, I don’t purchase products to qualify, I purchase them because I believe they work for me.]

    And that’s kind of the problem. The statistics do exist, but they aren’t being made available (as far as I can tell either). It would be shocking if it was available and public, because I’ve never seen an MLM provide it. And if they do provide it, I’d want to be sure that independently verified. An honor system doesn’t work. Shouldn’t we have transparency to know if there’s a problem? If there was a 95% chance your plane could crash, wouldn’t you like to know this? Or would you say, “Hey, that’s not a number the manufacturer needs to report, so let’s move on.”

    [Papa’s response: Very good points and I don’t disagree but doesn’t this put the burden of the FTC and other federal agency to enact legislation, create the reporting requirements and verify compliance? Can you tell me if the 70% rule is actually enforced? I noticed in the Plexus Policies and Procedure document, that Ambassadors with high volumes of product purchase are required to provide documentation that they are not violating the 70% rule.]

    Please let’s not open the can of worms of how messed up this is.

    [Papa’s response. Lazy Man over the last several days I have developed a great deal of respect for your knowledge on MLM’s and although I may not agree with all of your opinions, I do appreciate your willingness to provide them here. I had hope that you would provide your insight into this aspect of the Plexus structure. With that said, I will not bring it up again in the future.]

    What you’ve suggested is a valid alternative approach, but I don’t believe people qualify through preferred customers legitimately happens very often.

    [Papa’s response: Are you referring to initially or on a on-going basis?]

    I’ve written Why Would Anyone Buy an MLM Product? which covers 3 reasons why it simply doesn’t make sense for people to buy MLM products.

    [Pap’s response: Could you provide a link to this article? I’d like to read it.]

    As we covered preferred customers might not really be customers, but just recruiters in training who haven’t recruited. Also, there’s the problem of people who may be legitimate customers, but only because they are given marketing that the Plexus products help with a medical condition. I don’t count these as legitimate customers.

    [Papa’s response: It is also very difficult to discern Ambassador’s who are actually only Customers taking advantage of wholesale pricing but based on the volume of product going through their account they become commission qualified. I’m a bit disappointed that there are links to documents that I can’t provide you for review. The Plexus Policies and Procedure document if very clear the Ambassadors should not use medical claims when selling products. You mentioned marketing material containing medical claims. Was the material provided by Plexus or am Ambassador? Do you have links to it? As I suggested in an earlier comment these should be report to Plexus so they are removed or corrected. If you unwilling to do that if you provide the links I will make sure they get to Plexus for review.]

    When I combine all these reasons together, I don’t find this alternative very compelling. It’s not as bad as beating LeBron James in 1-on-1, but I’m glad you got the humor in the comparison. It gets less compelling when Plexus seems to have a policy of automatically buying product for you to qualify if you don’t meet this alternative.

    [Papa’s response. Apparently I should have done a better job of explaining Backup Orders. Oy Vey! Backup Orders are not automatically generated by Plexus, the Ambassador themselves decides when the Backup Order is create. An Ambassador who does not create a Backup Order is considered an` Associate and no product will be automatically shipped to them.]

    Sure, it’s minor and I reserve to bring it back around later on. I use DogVacay to sit dogs and as an independent contractor, I don’t pay any fee for the website. There’s no membership fee of any kind. I don’t think Uber or AirBnb charges membership fees either. You get the same replicated sites and back-end systems. Of the top of my head, I think th concept of shifting the costs of these things to the salesperson only seems to exist in MLM.
    products

    [Papa’s response: Duly noted.]

    [Papa’s comment: Please don’t take the fact that I posted so many comments tonight as a tirade. The wife was working tonight and there was nothing worth watching on TV so I thought I’d get current on here. Or maybe …….. as A Woman Scammed suggested in one of her posts ….. I should have spent the time working my Plexus business. ;-)]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa Hoover said, “Oh I’m certain that an FTC regulator would agree with you 100%. ;-)”

      I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic, but just in case you were curious, An Insider Explains Why the FTC Can’t Put an End to Pyramid Schemes. Here’s the short version, it costs them several years and millions and millions of dollars for each one due to a messed up (my opinion) political/legal environment.

      Papa Hoover said, “What I’m struggling with is understanding your underlying concern and how eliminating qualification addresses it. If your concern is a high percentage of revenue coming from distributor, 95/5, (which I think it is, correct me if I’m wrong) then wouldn’t you also have to prohibit distributors from purchasing products.”

      Distributors can still purchase products if they want to, but they wouldn’t feel like they need to… because they wouldn’t. In face, Vemma’s in new compensation plan as I understand it (based on this) distributors can’t use purchases to qualify.

      It’s not the only protection, but it’s a part of the solution. (When the FTC proposed several of changes like these to Vemma they fought them in court. When forced to accept them, it seemed that Vemma collapsed. It tells me it was never about the product.)

      Papa Hoover said, “Very good points and I don’t disagree but doesn’t this put the burden of the FTC and other federal agency to enact legislation, create the reporting requirements and verify compliance?”

      Enacting legislation to save 15 million Americans from getting caught in pyramid schemes? That seems like a no-brainer. Compliance could be ensured by trusted third-party auditors. It’s also easy enough for regulars to say, “MLM looks like it has two components: a pyramid scheme and a sales component. Let’s remove the pyramid and eliminate levels. A good company can survive on basic commission sales.”

      Papa Hoover said, “Can you tell me if the 70% rule is actually enforced?”

      I have never heard of a situation enforcing the 70% rule. And you almost never hear the 10-customer rule because that would obviously be a problem.

      Papa Hoover said, “Lazy Man over the last several days I have developed a great deal of respect for your knowledge on MLM’s and although I may not agree with all of your opinions, I do appreciate your willingness to provide them here. I had hope that you would provide your insight into this aspect of the Plexus structure.”

      Thanks for the kind words… I’ve been reading and discussing this stuff for 10 years with thousands of people in comments like this. It would be hard not have some knowledge from that.

      Regarding the can of worms of creating a pool from sales on the website… I really don’t want to dig into Plexus’ specific compensation structure because these things give me headaches with how they invent bonus pools and divide them out to some levels. I’ll just say that in general it is very weird to credit sales made through the website and divide those commissions out to people. I’ll put the question to you (because I want to save the headache) is the pool of those commissions divided out EQUALLY to all distributors (qualified or unqualified)? If you can say yes to that, I can see it as possibly being legit. I’d also like to see it presented in the compensation how much that typically is so that a distributor knows what he/she is expected to get at least historically.

      Papa Hoover said, “Are you referring to initially or on a on-going basis? [Regarding qualifying through preferred customers legitimately]”

      I’m not trying to break it down to specific groups, but just everyone. If you need to break it down, I’d focus on the 99% that lose money in MLMs in general (not specifically Plexus)… including all the people who churn out. How many of these people are qualifying or have qualified with their own purchases and how many are qualifying through preferred customers?

      Papa Hoover said, “Could you provide a link to this article? I’d like to read it.”

      I did, it is formatted in the comment with the link.

      Papa Hoover said, “It is also very difficult to discern Ambassador’s who are actually only Customers taking advantage of wholesale pricing but based on the volume of product going through their account they become commission qualified.”

      Well, that’s a problem that Plexus created by making it so easy for Ambassador’s to get wholesale pricing. Apple doesn’t let everyone become authorized dealers to get wholesale pricing on iPhones.

      Papa Hoover said, “The Plexus Policies and Procedure document if very clear the Ambassadors should not use medical claims when selling products.”

      Every MLM with a health product I’ve seen has the same. Just 4 days ago, June 7th, Truth in Advertising showed that even the DSA ethics award winning companies had numerous health claim issues. It was so bad that their lawyers sent a letter telling them to clean up their act. In looking at many, many MLMs, this document is little more than window dressing. The public has little information on how well they are enforced. Enforcement of them can lead to loss of sales, so I wouldn’t believe it happens often.

      Papa Hoover said, “Apparently I should have done a better job of explaining Backup Orders.”

      The idea of having a backup order for qualification is the point. This goes back to eliminating qualification and these unnecessary purchases altogether.

  6. LiveHealthyLoveLifeBePlexus says:

    I just love how you “moderate” and delete posts from being on the page. Only the ones you want to show up. That’s true bias! Thank God for His mercy and Plexus!

    • Lazy Man says:

      LiveHealthyLoveLifeBePlexus,

      I only moderated and delete posts that provide little constructive value and focus on hate. As you can tell, I let any semblance of reasonable discussion go through.

      As for bias, I’m also biased against domestic violence. Do you want to argue in favor of that?

  7. Jen says:

    LiveHealthyLoveLifeBePlexus,

    He actually did originally post your comment. I got an email when it was posted. He may of taken it down later. In that comment you were just complaining about your current job and how badly you were treated and said working for plexus can’t possibly be as bad as your current job. You didn’t comment on the products at all.

  8. Papa Hoover says:

    A Woman Scammed said: Just food for thought….
    Is Plexus really safe?

    https://healthzmag.com/plexus-slim-reviewed-why-everyone-should-stay-clear-of-this-popular-supplement

    http://universityhealthnews.com/daily/nutrition/is-plexus-safe

    http://oag.ca.gov/prop65/60-day-notice-2015-00285

    [Papa’s response: Here’s some food for thought for you, 100,000 people die every year in this country from prescription drugs used as directed. Every one of them FDA approved.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich

    Please provide me with a verifiable citation showing that use of Plexus Slim was the cause of a 100,000 deaths in this country.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa Hoover said, “Here’s some food for thought for you, 100,000 people die every year in this country from prescription drugs used as directed. Every one of them FDA approved.”

      Papa, you keep on giving bad analogies that I’ve debunked years and years ago. This is what I call couches vs. cars. Many people die in car accidents every year. Thus we could conclude that people should just stay on their couches and never get in cars. Of course, couches are ineffective means transportation. This is what we call effectiveness.

      You’ve are making the mistake of focusing on safety and ignoring effectiveness. Few people die of toast ;-).

      And let’s not even touch how many more millions or billions of units of prescription drugs are taken in the United States vs. Plexus Slim. Oops, I just did.

  9. Papa Hoover says:

    Lazy Man said: As for bias, I’m also biased against domestic violence. Do you want to argue in favor of that?

    [Papa’s comment: Really Lazy Man? An analogy comparing the societal impact of MLM’s to domestic violence? Seems a bit below you.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa Hoover said, “Really Lazy Man? An analogy comparing the societal impact of MLM’s to domestic violence? Seems a bit below you.”

      It wasn’t a comparison of MLMs to domestic violence. In my opinion, LiveHealthyLoveLifeBePlexus hasn’t displayed much intelligence in her remarks, thus I wanted to err on the extreme side to illustrate clearly to her how bad her argument was.

  10. Papa Hoover says:

    Papa, you keep on giving bad analogies that I’ve debunked years and years ago. This is what I call couches vs. cars. Many people die in car accidents every year. Thus we could conclude that people should just stay on their couches and never get in cars. Of course, couches are ineffective means transportation. This is what we call effectiveness.

    [Papa’s response: A Woman Scammed and the references in her comment seemed to address safety concerns. My comment was in response to safety not effectiveness of FDA approved drugs. Every FDA approved drug comes with the required information on know side effects.

    In the future please don’t make poor assumptions about my knowledge of the English language.]

    You’ve are making the mistake of focusing on safety and ignoring effectiveness. Few people die of toast ;-).

    [Papa’s response: I don’t believe so Lazy Man. If you read the reference that I provided in my comment to A Woman Scammed the article specifically states that only death from know side effects were included in the study, safety not effectiveness.

    But lets talk about the effectiveness of chemotherapy drugs on the 5 year survival rates of cancer patients as an example. Of all the chemotherapy drugs combined the effective rate is estimated to be 2.1%. I won’t even get into the number of cancer patients that die from the side effects of chemotherapy drugs (heaven forbid I would confuse safety and effectiveness again).

    You and I both know that the FDA approval process for drugs has very little to do with effectiveness and a lot to do with safety.

    http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/how-effective-is-chemotherapy/ ]

    And let’s not even touch how many more millions or billions of units of prescription drugs are taken in the United States vs. Plexus Slim. Oops, I just did.

    [Papa’s response: Yes you did. OK I’ll adjust my comment to A Woman Scammed. Provide one verifiable citation were the official cause of death was consumption of a Plexus product. Does that seem like an appropriate adjustment?]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa Hoover said, “My comment was in response to safety not effectiveness of FDA approved drugs. Every FDA approved drug comes with the required information on know side effects.”

      There’s a trade-off of safety we are willing to make when things are wildly effective. For example, couches are nearly 100% safe. The death rates caused by them are very low (assuming that couch is being used normally – as an object for sitting on). However, couches are not effective transportation so we take the safety risks of cars, because they are effective. You seem to openly admit that Plexus isn’t therapeutically effective, so we take the safety risks of medicine which has been clinically shown to be. The safety risks of medicine and cars are very, very small in relation to their use.

      Now we can compare the safety of Plexus to toast, but again, since they appear to be equally effective for medical conditions, it doesn’t really matter.

      Papa said, “But lets talk about the effectiveness of chemotherapy drugs on the 5 year survival rates of cancer patients as an example. Of all the chemotherapy drugs combined the effective rate is estimated to be 2.1%.”

      This is what happens when you rely on a much-debunked study from 2004 posted on ChrisBeatCancer.com. If you had read Science-based Medicine here or again here, you’d see that specific study debunked. Yes, I’ve covered this specific argument about this specific chemotherapy article as well. Funny how people spread the same lies don’t spend a few minutes to say, “Hey this sounds really bad, does it really check out?”

      So yes chemotherapy is a lot more effective than 2.1% of the time. Also, if you have something better bring it to the table with your large-scale clinical trials. The world will listen to your cancer curing information if you can back it up. And yes some chemotherapy patients probably die from the side effects of chemotherapy drugs, but let’s understand that these people would die anyway, right?

      Papa said, “OK I’ll adjust my comment to A Woman Scammed. Provide one verifiable citation were the official cause of death was consumption of a Plexus product.”

      How many people have died in the history of toast eating? I’m not seeing warnings about the dangers of toast.

  11. [Papa’s response: The more you post the more I think you failed as a Plexus Ambassador because of a total lack of due diligence.
    I didn’t “fail”, I QUIT. I was not willing to compromise my credibility and integrity, as money can’t buy that once it’s gone. I did my due diligence and was devastated to learn how I’d been lied to, and most of it in the name of “Jesus”. “God brought this opportunity, God this, God that”. As someone earlier said, I’ll leave God and Karma to deal with that. Plexus wasn’t my first MLM, but it was my last and the most pathetic excuse for a company I have ever seen, bar none. I was flat out lied to and have proof of that but I can only reveal the evidence via my attorney. I cannot post on my website. I caught three diamonds in a lying dance, they got mad because they knew I’d figured them out and about had a cow when they realized I had the proof to back my words. Maybe YOU should read my blog, some of it may resonate. http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/my-pinkwashed-journey-nightmare-on-pink.html

    http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/drink-pink-and-shrink-really.html

    http://pinkdrinkscamalert.blogspot.com/p/mlm-deception-hype-hope-hurt-destruction.html

    Papa Hoover said: “Tell ya what, for the month of July I won’t buy any product. If I don’t become commission qualified for July I will personally post on your website that you are correct, that Plexus is a scam and you can’t become commission qualified unless you buy product. I will provide my full name and Ambassador ID. If I do commission qualify you agree to take down your website. Agreed?]”

    No. Here’s why. I said you must have your auto ship TURNED ON. I understand that if enough other people purchase you don’t have to purchase out of your pocket, nonetheless, your autoship MUST be turned ON to qualify for a commission and your downlines must have theirs on (or enough of them) for you to promote to the next rank (Gold, Sr. Gold, Ruby, etc). Recruiting is the only way to advance to the top. Period. Pyramid. In other words, you do not get to the next level by selling product alone and no downline. You MUST recruit to have points. Again, PYRAMID.

  12. [Papa’s response: Here’s some food for thought for you, 100,000 people die every year in this country from prescription drugs used as directed. Every one of them FDA approved.

    http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich

    Please provide me with a verifiable citation showing that use of Plexus Slim was the cause of a 100,000 deaths in this country.]

    Ummm, Papa Hoover I don’t believe anybody said anything about Plexus related DEATHS. Why are you taking things out of context? It simply says is Plexus SAFE, not Plexus KILLS. Try responding instead of reacting, you’ll make better sense that way. :)

  13. Papa Hoover says:

    A Woman Scammed said: Ummm, Papa Hoover I don’t believe anybody said anything about Plexus related DEATHS. Why are you taking things out of context? It simply says is Plexus SAFE, not Plexus KILLS. Try responding instead of reacting, you’ll make better sense that way. :)

    [Papa’s response: OK, I’ll deescalate a bit then. The CDC estimates that there are 700,000 emergency room visit a year due to Adverse Drugs Reactions. Provide me with a citation showing the number of Emergency Room visits due adverse reaction to Plexus products.

    http://www.cdc.gov/MedicationSafety/program_focus_activities.html%5D

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa Hoover said, “OK, I’ll deescalate a bit then. The CDC estimates that there are 700,000 emergency room visit a year due to Adverse Drugs Reactions. Provide me with a citation showing the number of Emergency Room visits due adverse reaction to Plexus products.”

      How many medications are taken by the nearly 320 million people of the United States? I saw one statistic that said that 60% were on at least one. That’s nearly 200 million people taking probably and average of 2-3 medications with multiple doses per day every day of the year. That’s roughly, conservatively, 365 billion doses of medicine taken. Doses of medicine that have been extensively, clinically proven to be effective by the FDA unlike Plexus.

      You can’t honestly compare 700,000 of 365 BILLION of FDA-approved doses of effective medication with the above cited unknown risks of a product that isn’t FDA-approved medicine (as best as I can tell). You suggested that I mislead people many comments ago, but isn’t this ridiculously misleading?

  14. Vogel says:

    Papa Hoover said: “Here’s some food for thought for you, 100,000 people die every year in this country from prescription drugs used as directed. Every one of them FDA approved.”
    http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich

    You do realize that this is not scientific data right? Just because someone makes a claim does not make it so. We have to see hard data that can be scrutinized to determine whether such a claim is true or not. But that’s aside from the fact that prescription drug-related deaths have absolutely nothing to do with Plexus’s idiotic pyramid scheme offerings. It’s akin to the couches vs cars argument as Lazy Man pointed out.

    These kind of moronic false equivalencies are the bread and butter of the MLM cartels. For that, you should all be ashamed and embarrassed.

  15. Papa Hoover says:

    Lazy Man said: How many medications are taken by the nearly 320 million people of the United States? I saw one statistic that said that 60% were on at least one. That’s nearly 200 million people taking probably and average of 2-3 medications with multiple doses per day every day of the year. That’s roughly, conservatively, 365 billion doses of medicine taken. Doses of medicine that have been extensively, clinically proven to be effective by the FDA unlike Plexus.

    [Papa’s response: I truly do hate the cure vs. kill analogy. I do also find an issue with your Plexus isn’t effective because it’s not FDA approved argument. Is there any scientific evidence that Plexus products aren’t effective? Not that I’m aware of.]

    You can’t honestly compare 700,000 of 365 BILLION of FDA-approved doses of effective medication with the above cited unknown risks of a product that isn’t FDA-approved medicine (as best as I can tell). You suggested that I mislead people many comments ago, but isn’t this ridiculously misleading?

    Papa’s response: I can and I did. :-) Great job on the math though Lazy Man, I’m impressed. But your comment has a flawed assumption. Not all prescription drugs cause adverse reactions. The reference below was a study of 179,855 adverse drug reaction cases showing that the majority of those cases we caused by 10 drugs.

    http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/healthcare/Drugs-most-frequently-reported-for-adverse-reactions.html

    The link to QuarterWatch in his article is broken but I’ve provided it below. QuarterWatch is a non-profit origination that monitors FDA Adverse Drug Reaction reporting and provides summarized information for educational purposes.

    Interestingly enough, of the of the list of 6,866 FDA approved drugs, QuarterWatch only tracks 31 due to the severity and frequency of adverse reactions.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa Hoover said, “I truly do hate the cure vs. kill analogy.”

      I’m not sure what you are talking about here.

      Papa Hoover said, “I do also find an issue with your Plexus isn’t effective because it’s not FDA approved argument. Is there any scientific evidence that Plexus products aren’t effective? Not that I’m aware of.”

      Is there any scientific that toast isn’t effective? Not that I’m aware of. What about root beer, or chocolate muffins, or just about any product at your local GNC?

      We don’t waste our money on proving things not to be effective. Otherwise we’d be testing ridiculous things like the difference between having a rabbit’s foot in my left pocket vs. my right… or wearing it on my ear. We can come up with infinite things to test.

      You’ve specifically made the burden of proof fallacy.

      There’s no scientific evidence that I don’t have a talking unicorn in my garage right now. However, you can bet that if I did, I’d be the first person trying to prove it to cash in on the discovery. So my question to you is, why isn’t Plexus doing the same by getting approval for medical conditions by the FDA?

      Papa said, “But your comment has a flawed assumption. Not all prescription drugs cause adverse reactions. The reference below was a study of 179,855 adverse drug reaction cases showing that the majority of those cases we caused by 10 drugs.”

      You just undermined your own argument. If a majority come from 10, then you are suggesting that 99% of medications are fairly safe. As the article said, “The suspect drugs identified in this annual report include some of the most widely used and valuable prescription drugs currently available.” So again, even the ones with adverse effects are “valuable.” Where has Plexus demonstrated the “value” of it’s products to the FDA?

      Also the article you noted stated, “The growth in reported events is primarily due to reports from manufacturers.” So pharma companies are policing themselves transparently? Why can’t I find MLM companies doing the same?

      Again, let’s move on from this, because you seem to be confusing Plexus with medication in this analogy.

      In other news, I see you moved on from your previous chemotherapy argument. Glad I could help you out there. Hope you do better research in the future.

  16. Papa Hoover says:

    Lazy Man said: That’s roughly, conservatively, 365 billion doses of medicine taken.

    [Papa’s response: Not that it really matters to the discussion but I did a little digging into you estimation and I think your numbers are a bit exaggerated.

    The FDA states in 2014 that 3 billion prescriptions written every year.

    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm188760.htm

    The Kaiser Family Foundation states in 2015 4.1 billion prescriptions were written every year.

    Using an average of “twice daily” I think we’re actually looking at between 6 and 8 billion dosages a day not 320 billion.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa said, “The Kaiser Family Foundation states in 2015 4.1 billion prescriptions were written every year.

      Using an average of “twice daily” I think we’re actually looking at between 6 and 8 billion dosages a day not 320 billion.”

      Okay 6-8 billion dosages (let’s call it 7 billion) a day would be 2.555 trillion dosages a year. You were comparing yearly emergency room visits, right? So maybe I underestimated it by a factor of 10, but maybe not, because people probably don’t stay on the medications for a full year. I don’t think underestimating is “exaggerated” for the purposes of this exercise.

  17. Jen says:

    Lazy man I missed some comments over the last few days. please explain to me how this has became a conversation about prescribed medicine ( that by the way is prescribed by risks vs benefits system) and plexus. Plexus does not have any tests to prove that it helps with anything medical. I agree that Plexus is safe but so is eating a banana. I don’t think if Someone with high blood pressure eats a banana (once a day) it will lower their blood pressure. Plexus slim claims that with no medical testing. I am fine with the products in general because they are no different than anything at GNC but I do have a problem that the claims they make (on the packaging)with no scientific data that Plexus helps lower blood pressure.

  18. texan says:

    Papa Hoover,

    Here is what one would think would be an easy question. What is Plexus? Why take the product? It was marketed for years as a weight loss product, now it it’s all about health. Did the formula change? What specifically in Plexus Slim will make someone healthy? Is there any documentation to support the claims I see online from ambassadors. They all state different benefits so it’s confusing. Also, I regularly see ambassadors stating that it doesn’t work for everybody. Why not? What percentage does it ‘work’ for and why? I don’t see any Tylenol state that the product doesn’t work for everybody but I am sure that there is a small percentage of people who do not receive benefits from taking Tylenol. What do you make of the issues regarding the 60 day guarantee? There are almost 700 complaints on the BBB site that speak to this issue. The most common explanation that I see is ambassadors, and Plexus themselves, stating they had a recent computer upgrade. But the ‘upgrade’ took place in October of last year.

    Texan

  19. Papa Hoover says:

    Texan said: Here is what one would think would be an easy question. What is Plexus? Why take the product? It was marketed for years as a weight loss product, now it it’s all about health. Did the formula change? What specifically in Plexus Slim will make someone healthy? Is there any documentation to support the claims I see online from ambassadors. They all state different benefits so it’s confusing. Also, I regularly see ambassadors stating that it doesn’t work for everybody. Why not? What percentage does it ‘work’ for and why? I don’t see any Tylenol state that the product doesn’t work for everybody but I am sure that there is a small percentage of people who do not receive benefits from taking Tylenol. What do you make of the issues regarding the 60 day guarantee? There are almost 700 complaints on the BBB site that speak to this issue. The most common explanation that I see is ambassadors, and Plexus themselves, stating they had a recent computer upgrade. But the ‘upgrade’ took place in October of last year.

    Texan

    Papa’s response: Except for the last upgrade, which was February of this year, the answers to your question can be found on the internet. Go find them yourself.

  20. Papa Hoover says:

    Vogel says: ou do realize that this is not scientific data right? Just because someone makes a claim does not make it so. We have to see hard data that can be scrutinized to determine whether such a claim is true or not.

    [Papa’s response: How about confirmation of those numbers from the oft quoted FDA. Is that scientific enough for ya bitch!

    http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Surveillance/AdverseDrugEffects/ucm070461.htm

  21. Papa Hoover says:

    I freely admit and accept full responsibility for the recent safety discussion here getting way out of control. I made a poor decision to use a nuclear response to A Woman Scammed’s comment related to potential Plexus safety issues. For that I apologize.

    I think the following would have been a much more appropriate response …………

    Any thing that a person ingests has the potential for causing an adverse reaction. Most adverse reactions manifest themselves as minor inconveniences, some require medical treatment and in rare cases may result in death. It is always important, that if someone is unsure how their body might react to something that they are considering ingesting, that they consult their doctor first. This is particularly import for individuals that have existing medical conditions and are currently taking prescription medications.

    • Lazy Man says:

      So is Papa Hoover saying that I should consult a doctor before I ingest some toast or a banana? I guess I’m not unsure about it, so maybe not.

      Here’s a better idea… if you are unsure of how your body might react to something you may ingest… save the doctor’s time and simply AVOID ingesting it. If you have a medical condition, then go see your medical doctor and listen to his/her advice. If your doctor suggests Plexus products, you should look for a second opinion from another doctor.

    • Where’s the “like” button when you need one??? LOL

    • Very well said Papa Hoover.

  22. Jen says:

    My friend just posted an advertisement for the new carb blocker.

    ” new enhanced Plexus product. No longer waiting 30 mins before you eat with BLOCK. Works instantly. Better get with new to order. Going fast! Block those carbs and sugars!”

    Why does one need a carb blocker? If you are eating too many carbs how about you eat less carbs instead of cheating.

  23. Papa Hoover says:

    Lazy Man said: So is Papa Hoover saying that I should consult a doctor before I ingest some toast or a banana? I guess I’m not unsure about it, so maybe not.

    Here’s a better idea… if you are unsure of how your body might react to something you may ingest… save the doctor’s time and simply AVOID ingesting it. If you have a medical condition, then go see your medical doctor and listen to his/her advice. If your doctor suggests Plexus products, you should look for a second opinion from another doctor.

    [Papa’s response: I give you one thing Lazy Man, you are a master at twisting peoples words.

    With that said let’s look at bananas and toast for a minute. If you’ve never had bananas before and you’re currently taking potassium as directed by a doctor, I would strongly suggest that you consult with your doctor on how many bananas you can safely consume in a day. Most doctors will advise you on that when they write the prescription though. Converse, when most doctors prescribe diuretics the recommend the consumption of banana or a potassium supplement.

    In most cases, the consumption of toast doesn’t pose a risk but if you have a family history of Celiacs disease and you’ve never eaten toast before it might be a wise move to consult a doctor. Then again, you could just accept the risks and deal with the outcomes.

    I find your continued comparisons of risks associated with food and Plexus products as invalid as you (and others) apparently find my comparisons of risks related prescription medications and Plexus products. I think that we would all agree, if someone is going to have an adverse reaction to a food that would have been determined before reaching adulthood. Thank God are mom’s kept track of that for us.

    And finally your comments about doctors. If you do a little research you’ll find that there are currently licensed doctors, nurses and nutritionist that are currently consuming and selling Plexus products. Do you honestly think that these people would risk their licenses and a possible malpractice suit just for a little additional income from selling Plexus products. I think not. Before you head into a “if they need additional income, they can’t be very good doctors” tangent. Using a quick Google search showed that the average income of a general practice physician is around $138,700. Hell that’s only 10% than I make as an IT professional.

    If you knew anything about the process of selling Plexus products, you would know that the company strongly recommends that if someone has a know medical condition or if they are currently using prescription medication, they should consult with their doctor first.

    I have customers who have had their Plexus products reviewed by a General Practitioner, a cardiologist and a gastroenterologist and not one was told that their Plexus products would be unsafe for them to consume.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      If you are on a potassium supplement or have a family history of Celiacs, chances are you’ve already talked with a doctor. In those scenarios the person wouldn’t be unsure, because they already have the guidance due to their specific condition.

      Good try to create a situation that probably has never happened though.

      Papa Hoover said, “I find your continued comparisons of risks associated with food and Plexus products as invalid as you (and others) apparently find my comparisons of risks related prescription medications and Plexus products.”

      Why? You were talking about the safety of Plexus products, so we brought up some other safe things. You (Papa Hoover) wrote “One needs to keep in mind that there’s no real science behind Plexus products…” so I’m not sure why we should consider it any different than bananas, except that it obviously doesn’t exist in nature.

      The point we are trying to drive home is that if you want to go with safety then go with a banana, toast, or millions other safe products that exist. If you want to go with something effective then go with clinically proven and approved medicine.

      Papa Hoover said, “And finally your comments about doctors. If you do a little research you’ll find that there are currently licensed doctors, nurses and nutritionist that are currently consuming and selling Plexus products.”

      And there were plenty of those drinking MonaVie’s “expensive flavored water” too.

      Papa Hoover said, “Do you honestly think that these people would risk their licenses and a possible malpractice suit just for a little additional income from selling Plexus products.”

      You tell me. I know one company where the doctor rose high enough in the pyramid where he was making an average of $600,000 a year… much more than his practice. When his hospital found out they told him to cut it out during his shifts. I can definitely see nurses and a nutritionists selling it to make some kind kickbacks.

      My point is that if you encounter one of these people, you should go see a second, unrelated doctor, nurse, nutritionist and tell them about the Plexus recommendation. Assuming that health professional isn’t selling Plexus as well (i.e. in a position to give an unbiased opinion), they’ll likely tell you that the Plexus recommendation was nuts. (Be sure to mention the costs when you bring them the nutritonal labels).

      Papa Hoover said, “If you knew anything about the process of selling Plexus products, you would know that the company strongly recommends that if someone has a know medical condition or if they are currently using prescription medication, they should consult with their doctor first.”

      This is true of nearly every MLM supplement. I believe such a recommendation serves two purposes… 1) it covers their butt if something were to happen and 2) it subtly leads someone to think that the products are also medicine and could have an interaction.

  24. Jen says:

    If someone has a potassium deficiency and is on a supplement from a doctor, The doctor probably would not even tell you not to eat bananas. Last time I went to the doctor my vitamin D was a little low and my doctor put me 2000 IUs a day. She did not tell be to also stop drinking milk ( or stop eating food with high vitamin D in it). 2 years ago my Vitamin D was extremely low and she gave me a prescribed vitamin D. It was one pill a week that had 50,000 IUs I took it for 3 months ( I didn’t follow the second part of her instructions which was to take an over the counter vitamin D after the prescribed one was done, that why my vitamin D was low again. Just in case you were wondering.). She didn’t even tell me not to drink milk with that high level of vitamin D.

  25. Papa Hoover says:

    Jen I’m so excited. Plexus released a new product today that can truly replace your coffee. It’s called Plexus Edge and contains 90 mg of caffeine. The best part is that it only cost $1.00 per serving compared to the previously stated $2.70 US average.

    What do you think? Should I sign you up?

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa, I just saw the announcement on YouTube. You must be so embarrassed by the absurdity of it.

      In any case, it looks like Plexus Edge is a caffeine pill with a couple of other ingredients included. One of them is Theacrine which appears to be similar to caffeine. I found some marketing of Plexus Edge online and I’d be concerned that the 125mg of isn’t marketed as being similar to caffeine… and not marketed as a stimulant, but as something improves mood and increases motivation. There’s the “*” which says that it hasn’t been approved by the FDA, but it looks to me like it being pitched as a psych. med? Vogel, what do you think?

      Replacing coffee with a caffeine pill? Who could of thought of that? As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I did How Much is Your Caffeine Costing You? I wrote:

      “Of all the common list items here, the cheapest is the caffeine pill. I found 100 of these Natrol Caffeine 200mg Pills for $6 or 6 cents a pill. That’s just 3 cents for 100mg or 1/10 the price of coffee that you brew at home.”

      And caffeine gets a lot cheaper if you read the article. The point is that if you want to replace 90mg of caffeine, you can do so for 3 cents. I personally do this with those pills and a pill cutter (available at your local dollar store for a buck). So I spend around $11 to replace my coffee for 365 days. It sounds like Plexus Edge would cost me $354 more per year for the same amount of caffeine.

      Didn’t you learn from our previous discussion that the “flawed” $2.70 number was restaurant coffee? A more accurate number for an equivalent amount of caffeine would be closer to $1.70 as I showed in the thread. Still, you are doing a comparison on the level of comparing a $50 steak from Ruths’ Chris to a hamburger made at home suggesting that they are similar because they (can) have similar amounts of protein, carbs, and fat.

      When you go to a restaurant, you are paying for the experience and overhead for the store, employees, etc. MLM products don’t give this experience, store, employees, etc.

      You mentioned that I was being misleading pages before, but Papa, you seem to be comparing a pill to a restaurant drink. At a minimum at least compare Plexus Edge to the 30 cents it costs to brew coffee at home (Brewing Coffee at Home vs. Buying at a Coffee Shop) not the restaurant. Then take the leap and compare it to 3 cent caffeine pills.

      I’m not sure that I agree that the “best part” is that it costs “only” $1.00 per serving.

      What do you think, Papa? Should you cancel your Plexus distributorship?

    • Jen says:

      Lazy man, I’m glad I’m not the only one that thought a dollar per pill was high. Next thing you know they will have a pill to replace pizza. Lol.”you like pizza but hate tasting it and chewing it, we introduce the fat pill.” I drink coffee because I like the way it tastes. Also I don’t even go to Starbucks but every so often. I brew at home. I don’t know why it was directed at me.

  26. Jen says:

    Papa, no thanks I like the way coffee taste. I don’t want a coffee pill. Also we have gone over this $2.70 is a large coffee which is 2.5 to 3 servings. That’s $0.90 and $1.08 per serving. So the same price as your silly caffeine pill. A dollar per pill is expensive by the way.

  27. Papa says:

    If you are on a potassium supplement or have a family history of Celiacs, chances are you’ve already talked with a doctor. In those scenarios the person wouldn’t be unsure, because they already have the guidance due to their specific condition.

    Good try to create a situation that probably has never happened though.

    [Papa’s response: Actually both scenarios we’re derived from experiences of family members. The potassium scenario is based on a food restriction my father’s cardiologist put in place when he prescribed potassium to help lower his heart rate. The Celiac’s scenarios is based on experiences that my mother and niece had during their diagnostic process. I could have also derived a scenario based on food restriction put in place based on medication my brother and I are taking. I thought two scenarios were enough though.]

    Papa Hoover said, “I find your continued comparisons of risks associated with food and Plexus products as invalid as you (and others) apparently find my comparisons of risks related prescription medications and Plexus products.”

    Why? You were talking about the safety of Plexus products, so we brought up some other safe things. You (Papa Hoover) wrote “One needs to keep in mind that there’s no real science behind Plexus products…” so I’m not sure why we should consider it any different than bananas, except that it obviously doesn’t exist in nature.

    [Papa’s response: Actually all of the ingredients in Plexus products are derived from nature. Since you’re going to use that argument though. I’ll agree that Plexus products are no less safe than bananas and toast.]

    The point we are trying to drive home is that if you want to go with safety then go with a banana, toast, or millions other safe products that exist. If you want to go with something effective then go with clinically proven and approved medicine.

    [Papa’s response: Apparently you’ve decided to ignore my scenarios completely. Many prescription drugs today have listed food interactions, if your doctor doesn’t explain possible food interaction to your medications, I strongly suggest that you read the information provided by the pharmacy or check WebMD before starting your medications.]

    Papa Hoover said, “And finally your comments about doctors. If you do a little research you’ll find that there are currently licensed doctors, nurses and nutritionist that are currently consuming and selling Plexus products.”

    And there were plenty of those drinking MonaVie’s “expensive flavored water” too.

    [Papa’s response: Well I guess that there’s just no accounting for taste these days. Me if I want flavored water I’ll fill a glass from the tap and squirt some Kool Aide flavoring in it.]

    Papa Hoover said, “Do you honestly think that these people would risk their licenses and a possible malpractice suit just for a little additional income from selling Plexus products.”

    You tell me. I know one company where the doctor rose high enough in the pyramid where he was making an average of $600,000 a year… much more than his practice. When his hospital found out they told him to cut it out during his shifts. I can definitely see nurses and a nutritionists selling it to make some kind kickbacks.

    [Papa’s response: Not hearing the story first hand myself I can’t really judge the validity of it. I would, however, suspect that the issue wasn’t the products he was selling but a concern about implied liability. As I stated before, I work at a major mid-west medical facility. Hell! Women can’t even sell Girl Scout cookies for their daughters on campus.]

    My point is that if you encounter one of these people, you should go see a second, unrelated doctor, nurse, nutritionist and tell them about the Plexus recommendation. Assuming that health professional isn’t selling Plexus as well (i.e. in a position to give an unbiased opinion), they’ll likely tell you that the Plexus recommendation was nuts. (Be sure to mention the costs when you bring them the nutritonal labels).

    [Papa’s response: I would strongly suggest that if you have trust issue with your current clinical provider(s) you should switch providers(s).]

    Papa Hoover said, “If you knew anything about the process of selling Plexus products, you would know that the company strongly recommends that if someone has a know medical condition or if they are currently using prescription medication, they should consult with their doctor first.”

    This is true of nearly every MLM supplement. I believe such a recommendation serves two purposes… 1) it covers their butt if something were to happen and 2) it subtly leads someone to think that the products are also medicine and could have an interaction.

    [Papa’s comment: Do you apply #1 to all companies that sell consumer products who put health advisories on their labels or is it just MLM’s? Thanks to the “dime a dozen” lawyers in this country there are thousands of consumer products today that have some sort of health advisories on their product labels. Hell McDonald’s even had to advise their customer that coffee was hot. Most just now consider it a cost of doing business. As for #2, I hope that the average consumer would be knowledgeable enough to able to discern the difference between a supplement and a medicine. Once again, I’ll refer you to the Plexus Policies and Procedures Manual that is pretty clear on not presenting their products as medicines or that they’ll cure anything.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa said, “Actually both scenarios we’re derived from experiences of family members.”

      So your father had never had a banana and your mother and niece had never had toast until one day they decided, “I’m going to go for it!” And they did this prior to asking a doctor about their known condition… as you implied in your scenario.

      The important part of the scenario is people trying bananas and toast for the first time without ever having talked to a doctor about it and without having a known medical condition. Let’s be clear here, no doctor is going to say, “You have [insert medical condition X], and you should avoid Plexus products.”

      Papa said, “Actually all of the ingredients in Plexus products are derived from nature.”

      Since you like humor, as George Carlin once said, “Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It’s not just trees and flowers! It’s everything! A chemical company’s toxic waste is completely natural! It’s part of the nature! We’re all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog sh*t is natural! It’s just not real good food!”

      There is a difference between a banana that exists unprocessed on a tree and something “derived from nature”, which could be applied to everything.

      Papa said, “I’ll agree that Plexus products are no less safe than bananas and toast.”

      Will you agree, considering the links that were passed along above, that some knowledgable people say that Plexus products appear to be less safe than bananas and toast? I don’t see many people arguing against the safety of bananas and toast, but those links looked interesting to me.

      And would you agree that Plexus products are not any more effective than bananas and/or toast for treating medical conditions?

      Papa said, “Apparently you’ve decided to ignore my scenarios completely. Many prescription drugs today have listed food interactions, if your doctor doesn’t explain possible food interaction to your medications, I strongly suggest that you read the information provided by the pharmacy or check WebMD before starting your medications.”

      Yes, your scenarios were terrible for the aforementioned reasons. I’m not sure why you bring in prescription drugs and food interactions as we’re discussing eating bananas and toast in isolation… not in combination with prescription drugs. And listed food interactions with prescription drugs doesn’t mean that they are dangerous. Some are, but many are not. Just look at this FDA guide. Most of the warnings are about alcohol, not food. The food recommendations are typically when to eat food. They are also mostly about avoiding “stomach aches.” They aren’t, “Take this medication with chicken and you’ll blow up.”

      Once again, you are trying to move this discussion away from Plexus. I presume this is your intention because you’ve been beat up pretty bad in this debate on anything related to Plexus.

      Papa Hoover said, “Well I guess that there’s just no accounting for taste these days. Me if I want flavored water I’ll fill a glass from the tap and squirt some Kool Aide flavoring in it.”

      Papa, assuming that’s Kool-Aid fruit punch, that sounds to me like the healthiest pink drink in this entire article and comments. You could have done the same thing when MonaVie was big in 2008, but MLM distributors were pushing health benefits when they weren’t warranted. That’s the point with the analogy here. Hope you got it.

      Papa said, “I would strongly suggest that if you have trust issue with your current clinical provider(s) you should switch providers(s).”

      If your current provider(s) attempts to sell you Plexus products, it should probably create a trust issue with them. I agree with Papa’s advice, you should switch providers.

      Papa said, “Do you apply #1 to all companies that sell consumer products who put health advisories on their labels or is it just MLM’s?”

      There’s any number of “cover your butt” statements from companies of all kinds. I just want to be clear that you recognize the statements as such.

      Papa said, “As for #2, I hope that the average consumer would be knowledgeable enough to able to discern the difference between a supplement and a medicine.”

      I would hope so as well, but in my experience MLM companies seem to market the business opportunity not the products. And when people market the products, they use language like you did suggesting that they’ll have gotten ‘benefits’ to imply they are medicine without explicitly saying it.

  28. Papa says:

    LMAO! Once again you missed the obvious sarcasm in my Plexus Edge post.

    It appears you’ve had more time to research it than I.

    I’ve had a busy day dealing with a roofer, my insurance company and my mortgage company.

    If you’d like, I should have some time tomorrow to look into it and then share my first impressions with you.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa said, “Once again you missed the obvious sarcasm in my Plexus Edge post.”

      As I said before if you are going to use sarcasm, please explicitly note it. You can’t get sarcasm tones online. Please see Poe’s Law before you embarrass yourself further. Thanks.

  29. Papa says:

    Jen said: Papa, no thanks I like the way coffee taste. I don’t want a coffee pill. Also we have gone over this $2.70 is a large coffee which is 2.5 to 3 servings. That’s $0.90 and $1.08 per serving. So the same price as your silly caffeine pill. A dollar per pill is expensive by the way.

    [Papa’s response: Jen apparently you missed the sarcasm in that post too. Don’t you think Lazy Man should consider adding emoticons to this site?]

  30. Papa says:

    Lazy Man said: It wasn’t a comparison of MLMs to domestic violence. In my opinion, LiveHealthyLoveLifeBePlexus hasn’t displayed much intelligence in her remarks, thus I wanted to err on the extreme side to illustrate clearly to her how bad her argument was.

    [Papa’s response: Excuse me but I said analogy not comparison. You do understand the difference right?

    http://notearama.blogspot.com/2013/08/introducing-analogy-and-comparison.html%5D

    [Editor’s response: “Papa wrote, ‘Really Lazy Man? An analogy comparing the societal impact of MLM’s to domestic violence? Seems a bit below you.'” You wrote “comparing” which is a form of “comparison.” I was responding to your use of “comparing.” You do understand that, right?]

  31. Papa says:

    Here’s a bit of irony about this site.

    Lazy Man uses an advertising feature on this site that is based on information derived from your Google search list. It’s actually quite commonly used on sites supported by paid advertising.

    In my case, since I do a lot of research on supplement products that’s what I see the most.

    LOL

    [Editor’s Response: Yep, this is one of the reasons why Google is one of the top advertising companies in the world. As you say it’s quite common. Since I’ve written around 2000 articles about personal finance over the last ten years, this works very well for the vast majority of the site.

    Perhaps you research more useful things.]

  32. Vogel says:

    Papa Hoover said: “Here’s some food for thought for you, 100,000 people die every year in this country from prescription drugs used as directed. Every one of them FDA approved.”
    http://www.alternet.org/story/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich

    Vogel replied: “You do realize that this is not scientific data right? Just because someone makes a claim does not make it so. We have to see hard data that can be scrutinized to determine whether such a claim is true or not.”

    Papa responded: “How about confirmation of those numbers from the oft quoted FDA. Is that scientific enough for ya bitch!”?http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/Surveillance/AdverseDrugEffects/ucm070461.htm?

    As I suspected, the data do not support your assertion. The FDAs reporting system makes no assumptions about causality, which is stated explicitly as follows:

    “Documenting one or more of these outcomes in a report does not necessarily mean that the suspect product(s) named in the report was the cause of these outcomes.”

    Nor does the FDA site mention anything about “taken as directed”. And strike three on your part, the data do not even show 100,000 death reports “every year” as you incorrectly stated; that level was reported for only 3 of the last 10 years.

    This further illustrates why Plexus a-holes, like you, can’t be trusted to provide accurate or reliable information. That’s aside from the even more important fact that adverse events from drugs have no place in a discussion about Plexus’s worthless products, and that you’ve completely derailed this discussion with your self indulgent BS.

    And you have the gall to call me bitch? Having a discussion with you is like playing chess with a pigeon; after you lose, you crap all over the board and then strut around acting like you’re the victor.

    You’re giving me good reason to go after Plexus hard from this point on. I’ve already made you my bitch; next we’ll see how Plexus likes it when I file a slew of complaints with the FDA regarding the company’s illegal advertising.
    http://www.fda.gov/Safety/ReportaProblem/ucm059315.htm

  33. Papa says:

    Now who’s reacting and not responding. I’ve not once suggested (except sarcastically) that anyone use a Plexus product to replace coffee. Hell, I’ve even stated that I don’t do it myself and have agreed with your assertion that home brewed coffee is the least expensive alternative (and I believe the best tasting).

    [Editor’s Response: Well again, no one seemed to take it sarcastically. And to be clear it seems that the official Plexus Edge FAQ states: “The amount of caffeine in EDGE is equivalent to one cup of home-brewed coffee (90mg).” That might not be saying explicitly that it is a replacement for coffee, but it is reasonable for someone to conclude that it might be in terms of supplying caffeine.]

  34. Papa says:

    Lazy Man said: In any case, it looks like Plexus Edge is a caffeine pill with a couple of other ingredients included. One of them is Theacrine which appears to be similar to caffeine. I found some marketing of Plexus Edge online and I’d be concerned that the 125mg of isn’t marketed as being similar to caffeine… and not marketed as a stimulant, but as something improves mood and increases motivation. There’s the “*” which says that it hasn’t been approved by the FDA, but it looks to me like it being pitched as a psych. med?

    [Papa’s response: Psych med? Anyway ……… it looks like there have been some government studies done on the combinations of caffeine/theacrine and caffine/l-theanine but not the 3 ingredients combined. Does it work? I’ll let ya know I ordered some this morning.]

  35. Papa says:

    :Lazy man said: So your father had never had a banana and your mother and niece had never had toast until one day they decided, “I’m going to go for it!” And they did this prior to asking a doctor about their known condition… as you implied in your scenario.

    [Papa’s response: So it’s OK for you to use contrived (and oft exaggerated) examples but no one else? Plus pulling portions of comments out of context? At the end of that comment I clearly framed the unlikelihood of those both scenarios.]

    The important part of the scenario is people trying bananas and toast for the first time without ever having talked to a doctor about it and without having a known medical condition. Let’s be clear here, no doctor is going to say, “You have [insert medical condition X], and you should avoid Plexus products.”

    [Papa’s response: No the point of those scenarios was to impress upon your readers the importance of being constantly vigilant when making a decision to ingest something they’ve never consumed before. With the information available today a doctor’s visit is typically not necessary. I’ve found WebMD to be a valuable resource when working with prospective customers who are concerned about potential drug interactions. No I’m not saying WebMD provides references to Plexus products but they do provide interaction information on many of the major ingredients of Plexus products. But …… when in doubt, consult a doctor like some of my customers have done.]

    I would agree that no doctor would say avoid Plexus products but they may say avoid anything with chromium, magnesium, etc., etc.]

    Lazy Man said: Since you like humor, as George Carlin once said, “Everything is natural! Nature includes everything! It’s not just trees and flowers! It’s everything! A chemical company’s toxic waste is completely natural! It’s part of the nature! We’re all part of nature! Everything is natural! Dog sh*t is natural! It’s just not real good food!”

    There is a difference between a banana that exists unprocessed on a tree and something “derived from nature”, which could be applied to everything.

    [Papa’s response: Carlin was one of my all time favorite comedians. That was one of his better routine. But ………….

    Carlin based most of his routines on sarcasm and exaggerations (both of which you seem challenged by) related to current topics. It was a comedy routine man!

    When I use the term natural this is an appropriate definition.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_product

    Although dog sh*t would qualify, I’m thinking that was a classic Carlin exaggeration.]

    Will you agree, considering the links that were passed along above, that some knowledgable people say that Plexus products appear to be less safe than bananas and toast? I don’t see many people arguing against the safety of bananas and toast, but those links looked interesting to me.

    [Papa’s response: There have been so many links on this page it’s difficult to remember the context of them all. No, I’m not going to go back and review them all just for this response. Everyone has and is entitled to their own opinions and experiences.

    I have as much concern about the credibility related to anti-Plexus posts as you and you readers seem to have about pro-Plexus posts.

    Thank you but I’ll stick with my and my customers experiences and opinions.]

    And would you agree that Plexus products are not any more effective than bananas and/or toast for treating medical conditions?

    [Papa’s response: I’ll agree to that if you’ll agree that Plexus products are no less effective than foods that contain similar the same nutrients.

    I would just like to point out that in the course of this discussion I’ve not implied nor specifically stated that Plexus product could/should be used to treat medical conditions.]

    Lazy man said: Yes, your scenarios were terrible for the aforementioned reasons. I’m not sure why you bring in prescription drugs and food interactions as we’re discussing eating bananas and toast in isolation… not in combination with prescription drugs. And listed food interactions with prescription drugs doesn’t mean that they are dangerous. Some are, but many are not. Just look at this FDA guide. Most of the warnings are about alcohol, not food. The food recommendations are typically when to eat food. They are also mostly about avoiding “stomach aches.” They aren’t, “Take this medication with chicken and you’ll blow up.”

    [Papa’s response: Really? I don’t find either of those scenarios nearly as terrible as your toast, wings and ant example or you cars vs. couches analogy. Just saying.]

    Once again, you are trying to move this discussion away from Plexus. I presume this is your intention because you’ve been beat up pretty bad in this debate on anything related to Plexus.

    [Papa’s response: Dang and I thought I was winning this debate. (sarcasm) I’d just like to remind you that it was A Woman Scammed that caused this current safety tangent with her anecdotal comment about Plexus safety issues. But I would agree that we’ve gotten a bit off topic. Where would you like to go next?]

    Papa, assuming that’s Kool-Aid fruit punch, that sounds to me like the healthiest pink drink in this entire article and comments. You could have done the same thing when MonaVie was big in 2008, but MLM distributors were pushing health benefits when they weren’t warranted. That’s the point with the analogy here. Hope you got it.

    [Papa’s response: Yep I get it since it’s actual a properly structured analogy. Although I must say that we’ve not yet established whether or not Plexus products have any health benefits.]

    If your current provider(s) attempts to sell you Plexus products, it should probably create a trust issue with them. I agree with Papa’s advice, you should switch providers.

    [Papa’s response. Although I trust my doctors I’m not going to put anything into my body until he/she answers 3 questions. Why? What are the expected outcomes? What are the risk? If he/she can’t answer those questions to my satisfaction then I’m not taking it. Actually, there’s is more than one notation in my medical file stating “patient refused treatment” because of that approach to my medical care. I suppose I would apply the same approach if a doctor suggested I use Plexus products.]

    There’s any number of “cover your butt” statements from companies of all kinds. I just want to be clear that you recognize the statements as such.

    [Papa’s response: As I stated in my original comment we have the “dime a dozen lawyers” to that for that. Of course I agree.]

    [Lazy man said: I would hope so as well, but in my experience MLM companies seem to market the business opportunity not the products. And when people market the products, they use language like you did suggesting that they’ll have gotten ‘benefits’ to imply they are medicine without explicitly saying it.

    [Papa’s response: I’ve commented in several past posts my understanding of why MLM’s would take that approach, I’ll not repeat myself. As for myself, I approach prospects selling the products not the opportunity. If the opportunity is something they want to discuss in the future then I’ll do it.

    As for misrepresenting the health benefits as medical benefits. For the last time, I will state that misrepresenting product benefits is against company policy and I personally make all efforts to avoid doing so.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Papa said, “At the end of that comment I clearly framed the unlikelihood of those both scenarios.”

      Let’s not waste time proposing scenarios that aren’t likely.

      Papa said, “No the point of those scenarios was to impress upon your readers the importance of being constantly vigilant when making a decision to ingest something they’ve never consumed before.”

      I don’t think there’s much of an importance to it unless we are talking about food that are known to have allergic reactions: peanuts, shellfish, etc. I’m not sure that bananas and toast are in that category. However, there are reports of supplements having side effects, so I can understand why you’d want people to be vigilant with those.

      I just the think the safest thing is not to risk it at all, especially if there are no medical benefits.

      And yes Carlin was obviously exaggerating, there’s an underlying truth, which is what makes it funny. As you say, “dog sh*t” does qualify as natural.

      Papa said, “There have been so many links on this page it’s difficult to remember the context of them all.”

      Fair enough, I was referring to the three links by a woman scammed on this page, which kicked off the conversation on safety.

      Papa said, “Thank you but I’ll stick with my and my customers experiences and opinions”

      Fair enough as well. I read similar things by MonaVie distributors about the “expensive flavored water” before the company collapsed. You shouldn’t stick with something that can be explained by the placebo effect.

      Papa said, “I’ll agree to that if you’ll agree that Plexus products are no less effective than foods that contain similar the same nutrients.”

      Actually from my reading, it seems that when nutrients come from food it’s better than supplements. I admit that I don’t know why, but it’s generally considered better to eat broccoli than a multivitamin.

      Papa said, “I would just like to point out that in the course of this discussion I’ve not implied nor specifically stated that Plexus product could/should be used to treat medical conditions.”

      You previously said, “My suggestion that you research the ingredients is based on my own research on the therapeutic benefits of many of the ingredients in Plexus products.”

      So maybe we are splitting hairs, but what are the therapeutic benefits of the ingredients in Plexus products. I’m talking FDA approved benefits, not things with “*” next to them that say something to the effect of “This statement hasn’t been evaluated by the FDA.”

      If you don’t get the cars (travel efficacy with dangers) vs. couches (no travel efficacy with safety), there’s no helping you. Hopefully the parenthesis help you realize that safety doesn’t mean anything without efficacy and sometimes efficacy requires a minimal amount of risk.

      Papa said “Dang and I thought I was winning this debate. (sarcasm)”

      Hey you figured out a way to denote sarcasm. Congrats! (sarcasm)

      Papa said, “I’d just like to remind you that it was A Woman Scammed that caused this current safety tangent with her anecdotal comment about Plexus safety issues.”

      Hmmm, just above you didn’t seem to remember her comment and now you do.

      Papa said, “Although I must say that we’ve not yet established whether or not Plexus products have any health benefits.”

      And we haven’t established if carrying a rabbit’s foot in my left pocket has any health benefits. The burden of proof is on you and Plexus to establish this, just like it would be on me if I made a claim that you should spend money on my rabbit’s foot. Here’s a hint, it’s usually done via large-scale, placebo-controlled clinical trials.

      Papa said, “As for misrepresenting the health benefits as medical benefits. For the last time, I will state that misrepresenting product benefits is against company policy and I personally make all efforts to avoid doing so.”

      As you said before, you haven’t established whether Plexus has any health benefits, so I guess this closes that topic.

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