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Orrin Woodward, Scams, MonaVie, Team, and Lies… Oh My!

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I apologize in advance for another post about the evils of some multi-level networking scams. A reader alerted me to this this crazy rant by Orrin Woodward saying, "Looks as if your blogs are getting to Mr. Woodward... I do assume he's talking about [Lazy Man and Money] and Juice Scam." After reading the post, I had to agree that it could be directed at me, but it is written generically enough to apply to multiple critics of Team. Needless to say, this particular post has got me more riled up than I've been in some time. However, before I get into the post, let me give you a little background on Orrin Woodward and Team.

Orrin Woodward and Team

For those who aren't familiar with Orrin Woodward, consider yourself quite lucky. He's the chairman and co-founder of an organization called Team. Team sells leadership "tools", mostly to distributors involved in the MonaVie scam that I sometimes write about. However, rather than take my words for it, let me quote what Forbes has to say about Team:

Team is one step ahead of all these juice selling schemes. It is a pyramid atop a pyramid. It is selling motivational aids to help MonaVie vendors move the juice. But wait. If you can't earn back the $258 you've spent on the motivational lectures by selling $39 juice bottles, you could earn it back in another way--getting people to buy $258 motivational lectures. If you're good, you flog the lectures to other people, who sell them to yet others. Everybody gets rich. Everybody, that is, except the last round of buyers. That's the theory, anyway. The reality is that a mere 1% of Team members make any money from involvement with the firm.

You may have noticed that before the quote, I put "tools" in quotes. Orrin Woodward is quoted in that same as saying, "What I try to give most of all is hope and encouragement." So he's selling motivation... motivation to get involved in something that causes people to lose money 99% of the time. Forbes article continues:

Hope is an expensive commodity. Most Team members spend more buying its motivational aids and MonaVie's juice than they ever take in. Roger Lareau, a Michigan alarm company employee, says his wife has rung up $20,000 in debt buying Team sales tools and Amway products and is now on to selling MonaVie juice. Their marriage has fallen apart as a result. "She still thinks Team is going to set her free one day," he says.

This is why I get so riled up with MonaVie and organizations like Team. I get a lot of comments from people who share Roger Lareau's story. It brings debt and destruction to families.

With that out of the way, I'd like to address the crazy rant by Orrin Woodward that I mentioned earlier. I'll break down the post bit by bit and tell you what Orrin Woodward is really trying to say. (Some of this may overlap the response by Amthrax about Orrin Woodward's Coercion Through Edification.)

I have spent the last several years studying the scams, schemes, and cons perpetrated on the American masses through the use of coercion. As a Top 10 Leadership Guru, I cannot sit by idly and watch Americans lose their freedoms without speaking up.

The mention of the Top 10 Leadership Guru is laughable. If you look at Orrin's website, there are at least three random blogs with rankings and in some Orrin ranks Top 30 and in others he is Top 25. The websites aren't reputable and seem to exist only to publish this list of opinions. If you look at LeadershipGurus.net for example, the criteria "excluded political, military and business leaders and focused on those practitioners who develop and instil leadership in others... We shortlist 60 names then did a Google search for ranking." So they exclude many natural leaders and then do a Google search (which is biased towards controversial figures like Orrin Woodward) for the ranking. That "Top 10 Leadership Guru" title sure sounds like a lot of bovine excrement. Update: Amthrax breaks down Arthur Carmazzi: The Truth Behind LeadershipGurus.net, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady. As suspected, the website is a scam and anyone believing it will likely buy a bridge from you.

Next, Orrin Woodward attempts to play the hero by helping protect freedom for Americans. The particular freedom that he wants to protect is the one that causes 99% of people to lose money so that he can stay at the top of his pyramid scheme (Forbes' words remember). That's the freedom that put Roger Lareau in $20,000 and potential divorce. So protecting freedom for Americans... more bovine excrement.

No scam can last unless backed by a monopoly of force/coercion.

Looking at Webster's Dictionary of "scam", there is nothing tying force or coercion into scam. The definition is, "a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation", and gives the examples of "1. She was the victim of an insurance scam." and "2. a sophisticated credit card scam." Neither of these examples have to do with an element of force.

Government is the only true monopoly of force available in any society. Coercion requires force, which involves either government intervention or mafia type tactics. Free enterprise businesses, like Network Marketing, cannot be a scam, since people are free to come and free to go, they will simply leave and the scam will collapse. Government scams like social security, income taxes, and fiat money inflation, to name just a few, take advantage of the masses, since the masses are forced to participate against their will, whether their needs are being met or not. Learning and defending American freedoms, against the encroachment of coercive government interventions, has become a key educational plank in my readings, writings and speeches of late.

Amthrax said it best here: Coercion Through Edification. "Through tapes, CDs and seminars, he plants up two life possibilities in the mind of TEAM members. 1. If you stick with TEAM and follow its principles, you will succeed. 2. If you don't do what TEAM does, you will fail in life. How is that not coercion through edification and fear?"

Orrin Woodward doesn't seem to be aware of the second definition for coerce according to Webster "to compel to an act or choice." Coercion does NOT require force For example, everyone has probably witnessed an act of coercion through peer-pressure. In such cases, people are coerced, but clearly are not forced.

Thus we note two pieces of bovine excrement here: 1. Scams do require force and 2. Coercion does not require force.

Also of note, he tries to bundle Network Marketing under the umbrella of "free enterprise business" to give it an air of legitimacy. Good one.

I won't even go into the idiocy behind his comment about income tax being a government scam. Income tax pays for many of the things that make America great. Of course, if he doesn't want to pay it, he can take himself and his business elsewhere.

Scams coerce participation

If someone attempts a scam, without the power of coercion, it will not last. For example, if someone attempted to sell a property for twice the market rate, perhaps a clueless customer would fall for it, but it couldn't last as the market will quickly identify the offending party and avoid any business dealing with him.... Many will call Network Marketing a scam, but unless backed by coercion, meaning people are not free to leave, Networking cannot be a scam. Networking has been around for well over sixty years, and scams cannot last that long unless backed by some form of coercion.

This is probably the most important part of Orrin Woodward's post. Since we established above that coercion does not require force, we can look at what coercive forces play into MLMs in general. I've talked to thousands of MLM distributors over time, and almost always they point to the business opportunity or compensation plan... not the product. Those distributors will talk about how much money the people at the top of the pyramid make and they'll never mention that 99.64% of MonaVie distributors lose money. These are just a couple of ways that people are coerced by the scam to buy a product that is priced above market price. MLM isn't someone making a transaction on a product or service as Orrin Woodward tries to present it. It is someone trying to buy into a dream that they've been promised is within their reach if only they work hard enough... even though it has been mathematically proven time and again that it is untrue.

MonaVie lays a couple of levels on the typical MLM scheme. For one, you have top distributors like Mitch Biggs claiming MonaVie prevents swine flu, which is highly illegal. Claims like these and thousands of others give the impression that MonaVie has medicinal properties. Some of that may be placebo effect and some of it may be dishonest distributors. The bottom line is that people are coerced into believing that its market price should be dictated by the price of medicine and not the price of juice. To borrow from Woodward's example, it is as if someone told you that the property happened to contain a Fountain of Youth.

Does Orrin Woodward really believe that there is no coercion in MonaVie? Read this actual letter from a MonaVie distributor.

The reason why you'll never see MonaVie in a store is that no one pays $39 for 25 ounces of juice unless they are coerced/scammed into it. This is especially true because MonaVie lacks nutrition in independent lab tests.

Finally are distributors really free to leave MonaVie? There is a very large PDF of a court case of Xowii suing MonaVie, because Kelly Bangert tried to leave. Xowii claims that Henry Marsh (a MonaVie Executive VP) put an end to that with coercion. Of note are Exhibit A and Exhibit B at the end of the document.

In Networking, some will win, and some will lose, but that simply defines life, not a scam.

The above quote is also true of pyramid schemes which illegal in many countries including the United States. Do we just say, "Let the Bernie Madoffs take our money, that's life?" I wonder what would happen if I robbed Orrin Woodward's home and took valuables. Would he say, "some will win, and some will lose, but that simply defines life?" I'm guessing not.

I love my business relationship with Dallin Larsen and MonaVie, and I have friends in many other Networking companies. There are many great companies and leaders in Networking and the more we lift one another, the more the Networking tide rises for all in our profession. I don't have to attack another enterprise in order to build my own. If you really believe in your Networking business, just build it, allowing your actions to speak louder than your words. Leaders will flock from around the world if you have truly created a better business model. Any business that has been successful over the years, if not the decades, must be serving their customers in order to survive in a true free enterprise model.

This is where I start to think that he's addressing me. I do attack MonaVie and Team it does build my own enterprise. However, I had established Lazy Man and Money years before I heard about MonaVie. Also, I think that anyone trying to help consumers (as Lazy Man and Money's mission is), should attack businesses that cause 99% of people to lose their money and provide no value in return.

Amthrax points out: "Orrin certainly did his share of badmouthing after being terminated by Amway a few years back. Of course, you won't hear any more criticism coming from his mouth, certainly not after signing a confidential agreement with Amway." In fact, Orrin Woodward tried to whitewash the situation, asking for people to remove all materials relating to the dispute. Woodward offers up another piece of bovine excrement for your enjoyment.

Success isn't easy, but then again, neither is failure

When people call the entire Network Marketing profession a scam, merely because they didn't succeed, it demonstrates their lack of understanding of scams and personal responsibility. No one should teach that success in Networking is easy, since it's not, but failure certainly isn't easy either. Malcolm Gladwell, a best selling author, teaches that success in any field requires 10,000 hours of diligent study and action. Anything less, and that person is still an amateur in his profession. For someone to try Networking for several years, and then state it's a scam, is simply a version of Aesop's fables, sour grapes from an amateur fox who couldn't reach the desired fruit. For example, in high school, I wrestled in many tournaments. I could not of imagined any wrestler calling the tournament a scam because he didn't receive a medal. The sour grapes wrestler would have been laughed out of the arena, since many do not win medals, not having at that moment, learned the skills and put in the hours to win at a tournament level.

Is it possible that people are just calling a spade a spade? I call many MLMs scams and I don't participate in any of them. It's quite possible that people call it a scam, because of the coercion which disrupts the market value of a product as well as the fact that 99% of people lose money. When someone fails to sell 25 ounce bottles of juice for between $37 and $45 when there are other more nutritious products available for $4 for 46 ounces, it is insane to blame it "lack of personal responsibility." If I were to open up a store and sell Honda Civics for $200,000 a piece failure is the expectation.

Orrin Woodward doesn't two other interesting things in the above paragraph. He wants people to stick with Network Marketing even though it clearly doesn't mathematically work. To him, it is a number's game. He knows that 0.5% will make some kind of money and 99.5% will not. So he wants to keep that 99.5% buying tools and juice as long as possible. Thus he gives a "Network Marketing isn't easy" and "success requires 10,000 hours." If you do the math on 10,000 hours it turns out to be working 8 hours a day for 250 days a year (taking some weekends off) for 5 years. Is that the kind of commitment you want to make to something that fails 99.5% of the time? I don't know about you, but that sounds crazy.

And as for the Malcolm Gladwell and 10,000 hours claim... maybe Orrin Woodward should pay attention to what he reads more. I reviewed Outliers, the book where Malcolm Gladwell makes the statement. The important part of the chapter was that the examples cited (The Beatles, Bill Joy, and Bill Gates) all had a unique opportunity advantage such as being in the right place at the right time. Gladwell points out that being born around 1955 in Silicon Valley put both the aforementioned Bills in place to be the right age to have youthful exuberance at the time that personal computers were picking up steam. He also says that a similar thing happened during the Industrial Revolution. This unique opportunity is necessary in addition to the 10,000 hours of work. With Network Marketing, you have no unique opportunity advantage.

It is interesting that Woodward brings up the wrestling. I've always said that it wouldn't have mattered how hard I practiced to be the next Michael Jordan (or even just any NBA player), I just lacked the talent and physical make-up. Orrin Woodward would like you to believe that buying his tools will give you the skills that you need to be Michael Jordan, but it is like buying Nike Air shoes and going to basketball camp. The NBA can only have so many basketball players in it just as MLMs are mathematically set up to only allow a few people to succeed. The system is against you. The wise thing would be to recognize that failure has nothing to do with your work ethic.

Anonymous Victims Online

In today's society, people can write anonymously about his victimization, crying about his lack of results, claiming to be scammed from the Networkers (better wrestlers) who kicked their butts in free enterprise, while claiming it was rigged against them, even though others seemed to win while they were whining. If someone felt they were hurt, why not seek out the leaders of the company or community for resolution? Doesn't this sounds like the right thing, not to mention the honorable thing to do? Rather than post anonymously, hiding their identities as well as their real motives, assaulting the reputations of people that they don't personally know, why not call the community leaders or the company to get the issue resolved? Any reputable company would serve the customer in a heartbeat.

Here is where I think that Orrin Woodward is addressing my Juice Scam website. I believe this because if you search Google for "MonaVie Team" you get an anonymous post about someone's experience with Team MonaVie. More and more people are writing about their bad experiences Team nowadays. Here is an Ex-MonaVie & TEAM distributor explaining his metamorphosis, though he's not anonymous. If he's wondering why I'm anonymous, it's because I've been anonymous long before I heard about MonaVie. Even if I wasn't anonymous it can be a wise idea to be anonymous when speaking out against MLMs... sometimes a MonaVie distributor will threaten to kill you.

I've always left the door open for MonaVie to discuss things in an open forum. They have refused my requests. Perhaps Orrin Woodward and Team would be more willing. I really haven't been as concerned with them, since I focus more on MonaVie. Orrin's solution of calling the company or community leaders doesn't work as it doesn't lead to public debate, which is sorely needed.

If anyone leaves the TEAM unhappy, it wasn't through lack of concern, but through lack of interest by the customer to address.

I've heard numerous cases where this is the complete opposite of the truth. People bring their concerns to their upline and the upline tells them not to worry and tries to sell them another tool to motivate them more.

Perhaps, the real reason that many post in Networking are anonymous, postings that act as if they are upset at the company, are because they are from competitors, not real customers. These are the bottom feeders of Networking, the parasite marketers, who, believing in a win-lose scarcity mentality, blatantly attack one company's reputation for the alleged benefits supplied to their current company. Sadly, this egregious behavior happens often, leading to much of the negative written online. When the perceived opportunity for gain exceeds the applied character of those involved, parasite marketing will typically occur.

Free to Win & Free to Lose

In America, one is free to win, free to lose, and, even free to blame. But unless one is forced against his will, a force that's necessary for any real scam, one will look silly to blame his loss on anything but his own incompetence. It's foolish to blame others, who worked harder, applied themselves more, and developed the skills to win. Calling winners names, calling the tournament (profession) a scam, pointing fingers at others, all in an effort to salve a wounded pride. This may take the focus off off his lack of skills temporarily, but it reveals more about the character of the sender of the toxic message than the receiver's character. It seems that 'passing the buck' is endemic in today's society, but one of the goals of the Networking is to teach people personal responsibility. Accepting responsibility is the beginning of all leadership growth. In Networking, unless the person was forced to attend meetings against his will, forced to buy materials without a buy back provision, why is he passing judgment on others for his lack of results? The minute you blame others for your failures is the minute you surrender responsibility for your own life.

Once again, Orrin uses the erroneous definition of coercing to try to make it sound it can't be scam. Once again, scams have nothing to do with required force.

It has been mathematically proven time and again that more than 99% of people lose their money. You can read this math of MonaVie's own Income Disclosure Statement. Or you can watch Brian Dunning on Network Marketing. Instead of owning up to that basic math that applies not only to MonaVie, but Network Marketing in general, Orrin tries to pass the buck on the person. You failed at your goal of being an NFL quarterback, then it is your fault. It has nothing to do with the fact that success in the "tournament (profession)" is stacked against you and can only happen for a few people. Orrin's bovine excrement reveals more of his character.

In the Team, we teach that freedom is a gift and we support your freedom to win, lose or leave, voting with your own feet. The tens of thousands who are part of TEAM, were not coerced into joining, but joined freely by buying into the leadership culture. The TEAM leaders win by serving customers, not controlling them, even offering a 30 day, no questions asked, 100% return policy for any items purchased. No business would be foolish enough to publicly state that, unless they knew that 99.99% plus of their customers were happily served. All reputable Networking companies in our profession offer similar refund policies.

If you look into the study of cults, you can see that MonaVie and Network Marketing in general exhibits cult behavior. Here's checklist of cult behavior of which many apply to MonaVie and Network Marketing in general. One particular I'd like to point out is the suppression of information. MonaVie threatened legal action to get me to take down my sites twice. Someone associated with MonaVie tried to blackmail me into taking down the information on MonaVie. The popular website where distributors were able to free comment, Purple Horror, was scrubbed clean and turned into a pro-MonaVie website. Feel free to look at the old version and compare it against the current one.

Of course, using mind control techniques and cult behavior most certainly counts as coercing. Those people who "joined freely" were often not presented the correct information.

The 30-day money back guarantee is something that almost every company offers. Even male enhancement pills that are also shown not to work have such guarantees. They are any number of people who realize that they wasted their money, but the 30-days had long passed.

Orrin goes to list a couple of videos of the top successful people to further try to convince people that it is the norm, not the exception. It is essentially showing videos of lottery winners and saying, "See we won the lottery, you can too!"

Since this post is already too long, I'm not going to post a conclusion. I'll leave you to draw your own.

Update: When I told my good friend at The Soap Boxers about the post, he made two great points:

  • "if there's coercion (particularly physical), it's really not even a scam - it's extortion."
  • Paraphrased, "In response to Woodward's assertion of 'If someone attempts a scam, without the power of coercion, it will not last'... That's the cornerstone of his argument, and it is faulty. There have been a lot of long lasting scams over the years - Madoff and Ponzi, for example. The power of greed can be pretty effective."

Last updated on December 27, 2011.

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500 Responses to “Orrin Woodward, Scams, MonaVie, Team, and Lies… Oh My!”

  1. switch says:

    chris says-
    “And maybe find the validity in an argument instead of acting like your the smart guy and anyone who challenges you is an idiot.”

    ok…here’s some “validity in an argument”….

    tell me chris, say if I were to sign the papers today to join LIFE, please list the benefits that come along with this “opportunity”…. Would I get 401K/pensions, vacation time AWAY from the seminars and majors? What about health insurance? What does LIFE pay right off the bat like every other “pyramid job” in this world? Because, that is in fact what you refer to in this statement, right?
    \
    “Here is the reality of stuff. MLM are pyramids. But so is every other business correct?”

    I look forward to your answers.

    switch

  2. switch says:

    still waiting, chris….

    or do I hear the crickets chirping?

  3. Definately not chris says:

    Oh that chris is such an idiot. Makes my blood boil. Now that he no longer wanted to spend his time in here, debating with us…. who are clearly much smart than he. lets make fun of him for like a really, really long time. Until the next one comes creeping in. Than we can hammer that one too!

    • Lazy Man says:

      Hmmm, “Definately not chris” and “Chris” have posted with the same email address that isn’t viewable. Yes, clearly Chris is an idiot. Hopefully he figured out the difference between a hierarchical organization and a pyramid scheme.

  4. Chris says:

    Well duh it was me. I was being silly obviously. I am also glad to see that even though you didn’t break contract of displaying email address, you find the loop hole of informing people of email address info with out breaking contract. Get the FTC on him guys.Ah just messing around. I don’t like your forum, you guys aren’t as fun as Amthrax.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Well, you might want to read the website’s terms of service.

      The point of not displaying people’s email addresses is to ensure that they don’t get subject to spam, etc.

      I know you were joking around, but the idea of misrepresenting yourself as you is certainly the kind of thing that the FTC is interested in.

      Sorry that I’m not Amthrax, but he’s much more focused on the Orrin Woodward/Team/Life scam. My forum gets a lot more “fun” depending on the specific MLM that you comment on.

  5. jack says:

    how do you involve another company with another? its funny how i can’t find some of the stuff you mentioned like about the women that went 20000 in debt. i find it hard to believe that someone would buy information that helps them as much as it helps others and spend that much and have no idea how the business works. i say that because if anyone in the right mind spends that much on the product and docent succeed she either had the money to blow or didn’t have the proper guidance. the information itself isn’t to stock up on right away but to go through each step to get the understanding on house the system works and will work and has worked and give the proper guidance to someone else.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Did you read the Forbes article: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html. Here are a couple of quotes:

      “Team is one step ahead of all these juice selling schemes. It is a pyramid atop a pyramid. It is selling motivational aids to help MonaVie vendors move the juice.”

      That’s one company (TEAM) involved with another (MonaVie). The two had a contract to work together.

      Later in the Forbes article, “Roger Lareau, a Michigan alarm company employee, says his wife has rung up $20,000 in debt buying Team sales tools and Amway products and is now on to selling MonaVie juice. Their marriage has fallen apart as a result.”

      Now can you find the stuff I mentioned?

      It’s really hard to understand how the business works, because they A) purposely make the business difficult to understand with bunch of terminology that is only used in the world of MLMs (PV, downline, etc.) and not in other businesses and B) try to hide the pyramid nature of the business dooming around 99% of people to lose money.

      Yes, clearly anyone joining any of these schemes did not have the proper guidance to stay away. That’s why I wrote the article. The winning move is simply not to get involved in a losing game.

  6. feeling like a fool says:

    was recently ” heavily coerced” into spending 110 dollars for the life leadership scam, and I did not have that kind of money to spend to begin with. Just wanted to be left alone, and now I fear I have just made it worse. Money that should have went towards diapers, food etc. for my 2yr old son. I feel like such a shit.

  7. Melanie Morgan says:

    “feeling like a fool~

    Try not to beat yourself up, you were “heavily coerced!” Just go ask for your money back, they tout they have a “money back guarantee!”

    Make sure you Enforce it, don’t wait!

    I promise you, Your baby deserves it!

    Thanks for sharing!

  8. Terese says:

    I wanted to thank you for this! I am married to a man that has fallen victim to LIFE, and our marriage is not just falling apart, but I am going to move out of state and file for divorce. Orin Woodward preys on people when they are at their weakest. I have done my research and lived (opposing it all the way)in this “LIFE”. Beware! The only thing that comes out of this is negative.

  9. jake says:

    My wife has been in this life joke for almost two years and has made no money instead we’ve gone in debt I’ve tried to make her see reality but she won’t listen I show her all the facts but she is so brainwashed I don’t know what else to do

  10. Johnny says:

    Just to clear the air about Orrin Woodward he has changed our life to be very successful . Everything is dependent on myself to perform and change. Network Marketing is the only way a person with little money become a successful business owner.So you can knock Him down but you better look in the mirror and say your prayers that we have men trying to help each other become better.

    • Lazy Man says:

      It’s worth noting that Herbalife is being looked at by the FTC for being a pyramid scheme, so MLM doesn’t look good now.

      Many people start websites for little money and become very successful. The $100 Start-up on Amazon is one of their most popular books.

      It’s fine to help people get better, but don’t use that as an excuse to run a pyramid scheme draining them of their bank accounts. I’m helping people become better and I don’t charge a nickel.

  11. Vogel says:

    Johnny said: “Network Marketing is the only way a person with little money become a successful business owner.”

    You mean ‘multi-level marketing’ – let’s not resort to using obfuscating terminology (really, the best term to use would be ‘pyramid scheme’). A participant in MLM is not a ‘business owner’; the terms of the agreement stipulate that in reality, the MLM distributor owns nothing. Lastly, the odds of success are astronomically low, and the worst thing that someone with ‘little money’ can do is piss it away on a flight of fancy like this. That’s three strikes Johnny!”

  12. Mandy says:

    I’m so glad to have found this page! An old friend of mine recently contacted me and was to tell me all about LIFE Leadership. While she talked about how great it was, I was googling Woodward to find out the truth. I feel really bad for her, as she is struggling, on gov’t assistance with multiple children, and these people have brainwashed her into thinking this is a good way to make money to support them. She said she started in Jan. and I asked how much she’s made so far. She admitted that she is still out more than she’s made back. I told her my concern, and she acts like she blames herself! Yes, this ‘cult’ is making people feel like if they don’t make money, then they aren’t putting enough effort into it. Lucky for me (in this case)I’m a cynic and a skeptic. Unfortunately for her, she’s too open-minded and trusting. I wish I could convince her what she’s into. And I did try, but she responds just like a brainwashed cult member. :(

  13. Lola says:

    I’ve been in Life Leadership for 6 months now and I’ve made more than half of my money back already so I don’t know what you guys are talking about. This isn’t something for nothing. You need to get an entrepreneur mind set and realize that financial freedom isnt free. All of the information has helped me in my life in some way. Also, one of my friends got out of a depression with the help of this information what price tag can you put on that? If you are looking at this website and you’re considering joining the business don’t let this get you down. There’s always going to be negative with everything that’s good. I don’t know about you guys but Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady look like they’re doing pretty good so I’m going to follow them because they’re helping me get out of the day to day routine and helping me fulfill my dreams. Make the right choice. God bless!

    • Lazy Man says:

      Lola, you should realize that this website is about entrepreneuralism. Just because one person makes back half their money doesn’t mean it is a good deal. In fact, it appears to be a pretty rotten one as you’ve worked a number of hours to lose half your money.

      Lots of information in the library available for free, so how about we use that as the price tag.

      There’s not always negative with everything that is good. I point out the very specific lies that are being told… and you don’t seem to argue them at all. Why don’t you go back through the article and explain why Orrin is justified in every statement that he’s made. Make the right choice, Lola.

      People at the top of pyramid schemes probably do look like they are doing pretty good. It seems that they have half your money and probably 90% of a bunch of other people.

  14. Lola says:

    Explain to me all of the people that actually do get financially free doing this then? Instead of sitting here arguing with you which is a waste of time im going to continue to be “brainwashed” and get financially free while everyone else continues to live in mediocrity, since that’s going so well. Have a nice day, God bless.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Lola,

      This analysis on the LIFE business plan doesn’t show that many people are getting financially free doing this. It looks to me like a pyramid scheme where the people at the bottom are funneling money to the top. You might as well just ask how to lottery winners get financially free playing the lottery. I don’t find it worthwhile to just look at a few people and ignore the vast, vast majority.

  15. Janet says:

    It cracks me up that you have had this going since 2012. In that time LIFE has been getting better and better and I’m so blessed to be a part of it! You need to find something to do man! Aren’t you tired of just being totally negative all of the time? You’re not helping people by showing them “this is a pyramid” you’re being totally ridiculous especially when there’s people making money with this every day. Because of this people are free, and are able to spend time with their family. My guess is that you got in, did absolutely nothing, and now you have to have a little pity party about it because you couldn’t make it work for you. How about you recommend some books that will help better my narriage and help me with my finances since clearly you’re an expert?

  16. Janet says:

    Another thing, how are you a credible source? Anyone can have an opinion it doesnt mean it’s a right one though.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Why are you using Lola’s email address to comment? The only way you’d know her email address is if you are Lola posting under a different name. Pretty clever there.

      Why are you trying to mislead everyone here?

      You can guess whatever you want, but I’ve been writing about Orrin’s previous scheme MonaVie since 2008 and exposing that. I was never in MonaVie, because I realized that (obviously) selling $45 juice makes no sense.

      I don’t bill myself to be a marriage expert. There are better blogs and probably a whole section of books at the library that will give you great information.

      If you are looking for help with your finances, you could read some of the 1800 posts that I provide here free of charge or even ask me a question. If you want to read books, I suggest Your Money or Your Life and The Millionaire Fastlane. The later is more for entrepreneurs and explains in detail why MLM is a terrible business. The former is more about basic personal finance.

    • Lazy Man says:

      As for what makes me a credible source, the truth is the truth regardless of source. The logical points that I made in the article are to be debated on their own merit. If you’ve got a problem with the points I’ve made then let’s discuss and analyze it. It is transparent for everyone to see.

  17. jesse says:

    LIFE is not a scam, the only people in it who make no money from it are people in it who do none of the work.

  18. jesse says:

    so are you saying that the source does not matter.

    • Lazy Man says:

      There are a lot of people who work really hard at MLM, but simply can’t recruit people because of saturation as described here and here.

      As has been shown here: It’s Not a Matter of Effort, it’s a Mathematical Certainty.

      Please stop spreading the myth that the people that don’t make money don’t work at it. It is the same as saying the people who don’t hit 10 holes-in-one in golf aren’t practicing enough. The circumstances are so extraordinarily against success that work/practice becomes of minimal importance.

      I’m saying that in cases where truth can be ascertained from the information provided, the source does not matter. For instance if Hitler had said that 2 + 2 = 4, we don’t assume falsity because Hitler is saying it. We evaluate the statement on its own merits.

      So for example, this post has been around for years now and there are 400+ comments on it. No has arguments the statements I’ve made in the article. It seems that everyone tacitly agrees that the statements are logical and have merit. If you read the comments, you’ll see attempts to try to disparage the source because they simply can’t argument the article’s impeccable merits. So yes, in such a circumstance such as this, focusing on the source instead of the merits of the arguments made is simply trying to mislead people away from the truth.

  19. Ashly says:

    I just want to say my sister and her husband have recently been scammed into this. She took me to a meeting and because I would not join I was contacted by weeks by the woman who got my sister to join. She is relentless in telling me my life could be so much better if I would join life and that I could use it to spread ‘god’s word’ and that me volunteering for free at a homeless shelter is a small thing in comparison to what I could do with this company. It’s funny all of the defenders of this company use the same lines ‘people are just negative’, ‘you must like life the way it is’, etc. I think it’s scary how fast they brainwash people. Sadly my sister and her husband have cut all contact with the family because the woman who got her involved said we are all too negative not supporting her by buying into this scam. It makes me sick these people get away with this and sad so many people are blinded by the promise of getting ahead.

  20. TucsonJoe says:

    Ashly-
    It’s ironic that Oreo Worthless’ minions tell you that you can spread “God’s Word” by joining team. Oreo and his acolytes abruptly quit the previous church he was attending over a rift that involved, among other issues, money! His actions showed that he was more interested in the ‘coin of the realm’ than “God’s Word”.

    Stand by your sister for as long as it takes her to realize the mistake she’s made. She’ll need you to help ease her back into the family.

  21. travis says:

    Just got the sales pitch for life from a guy at work. I don’t think he knows how these schemes work. I asked him to explain to me how it wasn’t a pyramid scheme and he drew a line instead of a pyramid. I told him I would think about it, Which means No. He basically told me I could clear 3500 a month and not really do anything. Haha. The video he showed me was absolutely terrible.

  22. david shockey says:

    I have not been a member of the Team for a few years. I do continue to buy Monavie monthly and people close to me have seen great results. I feel this blog is unfair representation of Orin! I have been to the red tie cult like events and seen him and chris brady speak. I see people start in the business and fail…..but I have seen that in others that have tried Business in the real word to and their consequences were way worse. I have had my own business for many years. I started as a business man in 6th grade and have made my costly mistakes!! Team and monavie give normal people a chance to excel! the truth is that ONLY 1 PERCENT WILL EVER DO THAT IN LIFE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A “SCAM” THAT COST SOMEONE THEIR MARRIAGE. the author of this post was a dip shit.

    • Lazy Man says:

      If you do the research there’s a huge difference between MLM and legitimate businesses. I’ve presented that research here: Now We Can’t Trust the FTC to Protect Consumers?

      Your odds of success in MLM are more similar to buying lottery tickets than running a traditional business.

      Not all things that are “difficult” are equally difficult. There’s a big difference between hitting a birdie in golf and hitting ten holes in one in a row.

  23. Repo says:

    My wife’s step father introduced this company in to the family.
    I won’t get in to the whole argument about money, but rather share what has happened in the few years they have been affiliated (introduced during the Mona vie period)

    Their relationship is all but a business joint now. They where initially introduced to this company as Christians looking to make their marriage stronger.

    Now, Nothing outside of team matters. They have been taught that certain sources of information are incorrect if not “recommended” reading. They solicit everyone they come in contact with in jargon….they will befriend random people in public only to turn it in to a solicitation.

    They are about to lose their home
    Step father suddenly thinks paying income tax is unimportant because one of the leaders said as much.

    He refuses to pay it now.

    The usual “you will be retired in 6 years If you stick to our plan” proclamation given to the over 40 crowd by their teaching and lecture hasn’t come to fruition despite their devotion and dedication to the cause.

    Go figure

    Everyone and everything is a source of adversity and animosity to them. If it’s not in the ideology or methodology of team it’s wrong. You’re wrong for not believing the same as them. God forbid you turn on a tv and a local news station is playing …those are “untrustworthy agenda filled propaganda”

    You are taught not to watch television as it is a source of corrupted information and a waste of free time.

    Nothing team teaches you cannot be leaned elsewhere business wise. They prey on the weak and devoted of faith.

  24. Trish says:

    Interesting read. You said you needed some facts to contradict whether or not Life Leadership is a pyramid scheme or not. My understanding is that a pyramid scheme offers no true retail-only opportunity. With Life Leadership there is a retail opportunity that is separate from the MLM. And you do NOT have to be a part of the MLM side of LL to be part of the retail side of LL. You can simply sell the books, CDs and subscriptions and receive 25% profit from everything you sell. All it costs to become eligible to be a retailer is the one time $99 (plus tax) membership subscription (which comes with a 30-day money back guarantee). The Christian books you can sell are by well-known and well-respected authors such as R.C. Sproul, A.W. Tozer, Josh McDowell, Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Ken Ham, James Montgomery Boice and others. If you find value in the materials Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, Tim Marks have produced then you can sell them as well. My husband and I run an online store and I wish we made 25%. With the cost of inventory, web site maintenance, merchant fees and other expenses, we only average around 15%. So I a looking at this from the retail side and see an opportunity.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Trish,

      I’m not sure if I said that I need some facts to contradict whether or not Life is a pyramid scheme or not. If you could directly quote my words regarding that, I would appreciate it.

      I’m also not sure that your understanding of pyramid scheme is correct. You said, “My understanding is that a pyramid scheme offers no true retail-only opportunity.” The FTC’s definition appears to be:

      “Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money.”

      So there can be a retail-only “opportunity”, but if the money earned, IN PRACTICE, is based off of recruiting it is a pyramid scheme. At least that’s my interpretation of the FTC’s words. Fair?

      So then you have to look at the top earners in Life and see if they are making their money through retailing the products to the public, people NOT in Life, or if they are making their money based on recruiting. I don’t think Life discloses the split as they should so we can determine if it is a pyramid scheme or not. However, if you look at the compensation plan and tell me that the people at the top are making their money selling media to people NOT in Life, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. You would be the most gullible person on Earth. If they aren’t making all those sales to the people NOT in Life, then it would appear that their entire “team”/organization/pyramid is a pyramid scheme, using the FTC definition.

      And if those top people are running pyramid schemes and Life is facilitating it, well it doesn’t look good for them.

      I hadn’t heard of any of the “well-known” or “well-respected” authors that you mentioned. And given the points made in this article, I’m not sure who would find value in materials from Orrin Woodward. No Orrin supporter seems to debate any of the dozens of misleading comments and lies that I pointed out in the article… something that hundreds of supporters has had the opportunity to do.

      It’s fine to look at it from the retail side, but you probably shouldn’t support Orrin given all the information in this article and this analysis that it looks to be, quite probably, a pyramid scheme. There are lots of retail opportunities available… many that don’t have major questions about their legality or fraud. I suggest sticking to those.

  25. Paula says:

    Hi.
    Just found your site and this is great!! Love lazyman! You have done your research. How rare!
    I literally just got off the phone with someone who wants to take me to a LiFE meeting or whatever it is called. Can’t go into detail just in case someone I know sees this but…
    I’ve been in direct sales for almost 14 years. I sell products that are tangible. Cookware, knives, etc. I am truly living the dream! A fabulous career…still. I am very familiar with all this jazz, but this kind of baffles me. There’s cds and books and then after u buy them…what do u do? Just seems bizarre that this has gone on for as many years as it has. Sales are more than 90% emotion based…hence the freedom and God shit? This guy knows what he is doing. I don’t even want to go to a seminar now just in case I’m not as strong as I think lol!
    I was only going for a family member who I respect but also know she’s done these things in the past and has always failed. I don’t want to hurt her feelings and because I am strong…sure I’ll check it out. I’m open-minded to all. But this is crazy and really doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
    I hope I can help her in some way to stop throwing money at this….she’s already got three of her kids in it! Damn! So I sit back and watch one of the nicest, warmest people I’ve ever met in my life fail. Sucks!
    Cool website CrazyLazy

    • Lazy Man says:

      Paula, I think you would be the first documented person on Earth to “living the dream” selling cookware/knives unless it is based on recruiting. Most people don’t have that many friends and family to sell such items too. Sure you can set up a booth at fairs and home shows, but it just doesn’t seem like it should compete with what people can get at retail stores.

      Anyway, that’s off the topic. Glad to see you agree that I’ve done the research. Many brainwashed Life supporters say that I haven’t, but then they can never point out any specific thing in my research that is missing.

  26. Emily says:

    I rarely respond to these types of posts but I have to admit I felt the need to say something. This is a grossly biased and unfair view of a company that is not fair for the public to read. Its comments and background are made by an author who clearly doesn’t understand the principles of the LIFE business and therefore is not at all a credible source even though he says in a comment “truth is truth.” I agree with you on that point, truth is truth but your truths seem to be made from an irrevocably bad viewpoint and I’m sorry for whatever made you so bitter towards this business.

    You at one point said:
    “The logical points that I made in the article are to be debated on their own merit. If you’ve got a problem with the points I’ve made then let’s discuss and analyze it. It is transparent for everyone to see.”

    This is a direct quote from Lazyman. If you would like to discuss these points openly and transparently I think it is first important to start with an open mind. It is only fair to the public.

    First off, Orrin is now a co-founder of LIFE Leadership so the Monavie business, although it has similar principles to LIFE, is completely different.
    The story about one man and his wife’s poor spending habits is an unfair biased view of the business. So one couple who have obviously had troubles in the past since you allude to her involvement with Amway, should not be the quintessential couple you base the business on.
    Also “it brings debt and destruction to families” you get a lot of other stories like this one? First, there is no data or evidence to prove that, second, these statistics and also; the article from Forbes is now completely irrelevant considering we are now talking about a new business. So that paragraph of statistics you gave that were supposed to ram home a point are completely useless now, I’m sorry.

    Now, pertaining to their leadership rankings, I don’t know why juvenile ranking systems get thrown out to measure worth, but fine, I’ll bite. First, all leadership ranking lists are OPINIONS. Once again, no hard fact, no hard evidence, so hardly of any worth but cool to put on your resume I guess.

    On Inc.com, Orrin Woodward is listed as number 20 and Chris Brady as number 39. http://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/the-top-50-leadership-and-management-experts-mon.html. Inc. magazine is dedicated to the growth and prospering of businesses. If you don’t believe in it’s merits feel free to google inc magazine or it’s founder Bernie Goldhirsh. I admit he may not be number 10, but this is just to prove that it’s all about where you look, and once again you were looking for something to prove you right, not for the truth.

    Your next paragraph about Orrin protecting freedom, you use old examples and statistics that I already showed were useless. Also, freedom isn’t a joke and if you were a concerned, informed American that knew your rights, you would realize that it is something that needs to be protected, especially in this day in age when the government is more concerned about which party they belong to rather than the principles that the country was built on. You may think it was built on the ideas of some crusty old men in a dusty room but while you’re thinking that, you can go ahead and thank them for absolutely every opportunity you ever had while living in the United States. Like free speech, for instance, which you clearly utilized in this post.

    In response to this scam definition, you obviously have no background or experience in dealing with this business or the people in it, therefore, once again you are not a credible source to determine if the people are fraudulent or deceptive either in operations of business or in their personalities and desires.

    Also, you said yourself, “Free enterprise businesses, like Network Marketing, cannot be a scam, since people are free to come and free to go” which they are within the LIFE business. Considering this logic, it cannot be defined as a scam. You also used the fact that coercion doesn’t require force and that LIFE leaders give ultimatums to joining. Also untrue. Either you join or you don’t, no harm, no foul. You may have come into contact with a business owner just starting out who made it seem like they were trying to coerce you but I can assure you it is only a concerned person tying to help, not trying to ruin your life. I don’t know why so many people would come together for the sole purpose of being a bad person and scamming others. That is the most completely ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Also, businesses are trying to coerce you everyday, with commercials, with advertisements, that is the nature of business. Since you consider yourself some type of business guru you should probably already realize this. This argument is just completely irrelevant.

    In regards to the income tax argument, I have no idea where you are getting your facts.

    Then you go into scams again and all that nonsense, once again it is impossible to define it as a scam as I stated above and even sited yourself.
    So that seems contradictory.

    Your next few paragraphs go on about scams and Monavie and quite frankly I find them irrelevant now or I have already addressed most, if not all the points.

    The next important issue to address is this hilarious notion that it is a pyramid. This statement alone proves you have had no introduction or even slight experience with LIFE Leadership. I will say this and only this. The community is compensated but it is possible to make more money than the person who brought you into the business in the first place which is the very opposite of a pyramid.

    A pyramid scheme is defined as “an unsustainable business model that involves promising participants payment or services, primarily for enrolling other people into the scheme, rather than supplying any real investment or sale of products or services to the public.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme

    LIFE Leadership does supply investment and sale of products to the public, so once again this statement that this business is a pyramid scheme is grossly incorrect.

    Now to address all these stories of failure. These people you know are all on different levels. They may be just starting out, they may not be doing the work, you don’t know personally where everyone is at. As soon as you are shown LL, they say straight up, this will not be easy and not everyone will want to go through with it. It may put you out of your comfort zone, you may just not want to put the work in, but if you do the work, put your time in and follow the system you will have success.

    I know so many many people who have been positively affected by LIFE Leadership, I’ve seen it save lives, marriages, I’ve seen kids grow up to have strong leadership principles, I’ve had friends that shaped up their finances and no longer have to worry about losing their house. I’ve held friends while they cried and told me how much they connected with the stories of others. I have family members who at the age of 31 are retired and can spend as much time as they want with their two little girls. My boyfriend’s parents retired 20 years before they were originally going to retire. I myself at just a measly 20 years old will probably never have to work an actual full time job in my life.

    So, yes, I may be guilty of being biased too, especially when I’ve seen so much good from it. I just hope others learn to judge for themselves and maybe my comment won’t affect you but I hope you don’t let this post affect you either. I’m not saying everybody run out and join, I’m just saying don’t judge others who do and you shouldn’t speak negatively about matters you know little about.

    Have a blessed day!

    • Lazy Man says:

      Emily,

      This article no more biased than one against domestic violence. I don’t condone fraud, and I made a case of why it is fraud. I don’t seem to see why someone should give fraud an “open mind.” I’ve written about being open-minded about MonaVie. Typically, it is those in MLM who have the closed mind to not understand pyramid schemes. They hear Orrin Woodward claim that a hierarchical organization without recruiting like a company is a pyramid scheme and ignore that pyramid schemes involve recruiting.

      I’ve been covering for 8 years now. For the first year I had an open mind about MLM, but after thouands and thousands of MLMers spreading lies like “a company is a pyramid scheme” and a lack of outside retail sales which is the key sign to an MLM being a pyramid scheme.

      MLM has had its chance to have an open mind. It still has a chance to prove itself as a legitimate business, but we need to see the sales the top people are making to ensure that they are making their money from sales to people outside the company and not recruiting them.

      When I wrote the article, Orrin was in MonaVie. I’ve had top people in MonaVie admit to me that they didn’t have retail sales. That tells me that it was (maybe still is) a pyramid scheme using the FTC guidelines that I’ve linked to above.

      It is true that Orrin has moved to create LIFE, but that’s probably because MonaVie moved to sell its own tools.

      As for the couple that had their lives destroyed by Orrin and MonaVie, I don’t suggest it is the norm. However, I did provide the statistics that showed 99.64% (or something close to that) of people lose money. The MonaVie data hasn’t significantly changed in years. In fact you can see it was the same in in Canada and in other countries. That shouldn’t surprise though, because it is the these horrible 99%+ loss rates are in numerous MLMs, to my best knowledge in EVERY MLM THAT HAS EVER BEEN ANALYZED.

      And you can say that LIFE is a different business, but LIFE’s Income Disclosure Statement looks just as bad!. And before you say that MonaVie isn’t relevant, keep in mind that Orrin partnered himself with a pyramid scheme it reflects poorly on him. When Forbes says that Orrin’s TEAM is a pyramid, it is still relevant because it is the only mainstream publication I’ve seen to even spend time on Orrin in any way… and it was clearly a very negative article.

      As for the Inc.com reference that you state, you seem to miss the small print. For one there’s this: “The opinions expressed here by Inc.com columnists are their own, not those of Inc.com.” So Inc doesn’t not believe that Orrin is influencial, Jeff Haden, the author does. And in fact, it was done by Jurgen Appelo who created the methodology such that he himself is in the Top 50. That methodology includes nonsesical things like Google searches. There are infinite terms that could be searched and used for this.

      When looking at list like this, you need to do a little sanity check. Where’s Mark Cuban on the list? Are you telling me that Jurgen Appelo is a bigger influencer than Mark Cuban? Well, I saw Mark Cuban on CNBC today, not Jurgen Appelo.

      Anyway, bottom line, Inc doesn’t stand behind the list and if you spent a few minutes you would have seen that. You then went on a rant about how Inc’s merits. You shouldn’t have wasted your time researching Inc’s merits, but you should have looked into the article itself. You are the one looking find something that proves you right about Orrin, not something that proves the truth.

      I don’t mind protecting freedoms. However, there is no freedom to scam others. He’s trying to point the finger elsewhere so that people won’t look at him. If he talks about the government taking freedom, some people will agree with him and think because they agree with him on this one thing they should agree with them all things. It’s the same kind of logic that Jim Jones used to get people follow him down to Jonestown, which ended in a mass suicide of almost the entire cult.

      Actually, I have years of experience of studing this business and I am a credible source. Your response doesn’t make any logic sense. It is like a pickpocket saying that only someone with experience in being a pickpocket can be credible source to determine if people are stealing or not. Like with MLMers, the LEAST credible people are the ones who are profiting from the scam. They are the ones who are truly financially biased. If you actually looked at it with an open mind, you’d see that External Perspective tops Real Life Experience. MLMers never talk about this. Their bias clouds them from understanding basic logic.

      I never said, “Free enterprise businesses, like Network Marketing, cannot be a scam, since people are free to come and free to go.” That was a quote of Orrin Woodward’s. I explained why this is wrong. People are given false and erroneous information about MLM. While they are free to come and go, they are continuously lied to and coerced through the cult tactics that have been well-documented… simple search Google for “MLM cults.” If you research the definition of a scam, it isn’t whether people can come and go freely, it’s whether they are being deceived. So again, Orrin sounds like he’s saying something intelligent, but it simply isn’t correct. Emily, if you researched what a “scam” is with an open mind you would have seen that.

      Emily said, “… you obviously have no background or experience in dealing with this business or the people in it, therefore, once again you are not a credible source to determine if the people are fraudulent or deceptive either in operations of business or in their personalities and desires.”

      Emily said, “I don’t know why so many people would come together for the sole purpose of being a bad person and scamming others.” That’s the thing, most people don’t realize it is scam because they are told that it is not. They want to believe it is not a scam. If you research psychology, you’d know about Cognitive Dissonance. People never view themselves as a bad guy. Snake oil salesman actually believe their products work.

      Emily said, “In regards to the income tax argument, I have no idea where you are getting your facts.” What part do you disagree with me on the income tax facts. The comment I said was “Income tax pays for many of the things that make America great.” I don’t see how can debate this, but please go ahead. Just come with something more specific than “I have no idea where you are getting your facts.”

      Emily said, “The next important issue to address is this hilarious notion that it is a pyramid. This statement alone proves you have had no introduction or even slight experience with LIFE Leadership. I will say this and only this. The community is compensated but it is possible to make more money than the person who brought you into the business in the first place which is the very opposite of a pyramid.”

      If you actually research pyramid schemes you’d know that “it is possible to make more money than the person who brought you into the business in the first place” is a LIE that MLMers tell each other. This is why MLM is a scam. They spread this falsehood as if it is the truth, when it is not. If you read the FTC’s definition of MLMs that are pyramid schemes, this is no mention of that. In fact, the FTC shut down Fortune Hi-Tech Martketing where it was impossible to make more than the person above you.

      Once again, MLM shows that the blind is leading the blind…. leading down the path were over 99% of people lose money in hopes that they’ll be the lucky 0.001% that makes the big money at the top.

      I thank you for the Wikipedia definition of pyramid scheme. Usually Wikipedia is a trustworthy resource. This is one case, where I’d take the United States’ Federal Trade Commission’s word over Wikipedia. The FTC went before a Federal court to get Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing shut down and it clearly delivered products and services. It is unfortunate the FTC doesn’t have the money to litigate against the thousands of MLM companies. If you’ve followed the news, you’d see that Herbalife is being investigated by the FTC, Department of Justice, FBI, and the SEC to see whether it is a pyramid scheme. They’ve been doing this for months and months now. It simply isn’t an easy task, because the companies don’t give us information on retail sales. If they were more transparent we could see if they are a pyramid scheme. Unfortunately they are not.

      As for failure, it’s built into the compensation plan itself. Only so many people can be successful, because they need to recruit so many, many people to make money. The lie that MLMers tell is that it is about work, but it is like saying that a golfer can hit 10 straight holes in one if they put in the work. They fail to note that the circumstances are making practice essentially irrelevant. Again, it is another thing that MLMers never address. Finally, failure is not matter of effort, it is a mathematical certainty.

      Maybe you should think twice about speaking positively about matters that you clearly don’t know about.

  27. Vogel says:

    OMG Emily. I’m bitter for having wasted the time it took to read that hollow screed. It’s quite an impressive feat to type that much and yet say so little.

  28. Vogel says:

    It was difficult to hone in on the core arguments that Emily was trying to make in her long-winded screed in defense of OW, but I did my best to summarize (and debunk) them below.

    1. “This is a grossly biased and unfair view of a company that is not fair for the public to read.”

    Biased? Not fair??? The site is infinitely more objective than the lopsided anti-LazyMan phillipic that Emily wrote. If she considers it unfair for people to be exposed to biased information about OW, then she should be pointing the finger at OW himself and his bootlicking minions.

    2. Orrin’s involvement with Monavie is irrelevant.

    Clearly it is relevant. He conned thousands of people into wasting their time and money in a pyramid scheme built around a snakeoil tonic, described by its inventor as expensive “flavored water”. Monavie gave him a $3 million sweetheart deal to be an accomplice in that scam. That says as much about OW’s character as anyone should ever need to know.
    http://amthrax.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/orrin-woodward-circa-2008-on-joining-monavie/

    3. The old leadership guru rankings scam doesn’t matter, but the new listing on Inc. does.”

    That’s the gist of Emily’s argument. She steps over the fact that for years OW touted his status as a ”leadership guru” based on a fraudulent list on leadershipgurus.net. I looked at the methodology for the Inc magazine list and it has nothing to do with one’s leadership abilities, as judged by experts for instance, but rather it’s a popularity contest based on easily fudged parameters like how often a name comes up on a Google search for the phrase “leadership guru”. While pointing to Inc magazine, Emily, conveniently failed to acknowledge the article that Forbes magazine did on OW, which essentially accused him of being a pyramid schemer.

    4. Orrin is a defender of freedom.

    BS! Sucking people into snakeoil juice/pyramid scheme cults is the antithesis of being a freedom fighter.

    5. By definition, what Orrin does cannot be considered a scam because people are free to choose whether or not to participate.

    That was one of Emily’s many critically flawed arguments. It simply has no basis in logic or in law. The same argument could be applied to Bernie Madoff or Enron (or any other financial scammer) who used coercion and dishonesty to sell a fraudulent opportunity – in every case the victim had the freedom to choose whether or not to participate; and yet the law didn’t give a shit – the perpetrators were found guilty in each case. The law doesn’t consider that the choice made by consumers is a free one when the sellers of an opportunity use deception and coercion to rope people in. In fact, that’s what OW’s entire motivational system is predicated on – that’s why Forbes described it as a “pyramid scheme on top of a pyramid scheme”

    6. “In regards to the income tax argument, I have no idea where you are getting your facts.”

    From OW himself; why was that not readily apparent to you? It was a quote pulled from his website; he described taxes as a government scam. LazyMan rightly criticized that accusation because it’s a pretty idiotic thing to say; as are many/most of the things that OW writes/says.

    7. What OW does cannot be described as a pyramid scheme because according to my definition of a pyramid scheme…

    Let’s nip that line of reasoning in the bud shall we. The central premise of your argument is a strawman because you are not using a correct definition of a pyramid scheme. The correct definition (according to the FTC, which LazyMan has discussed in depth repeatedly) applies to what OW does, which is also presumably why Forbes described it as a pyramid scheme on top of a pyramid scheme.

    8. The legions of people who failed in OWs organization don’t matter because I know people who didn’t and/or got some other collateral benefit…

    That’s the essential premise of yet another of Emily’s many flawed arguments. Monavie’s own income disclosure statement showed that their distributors had an astronomically high failure rate, and those who really succeeded were pretty much pre-determined from the start through sweetheart deals and break insertions. The same pattern seems to hold true for every MLM that has ever been analyzed in depth – most (upward of 90%) lose money and a few (i.e., the key perpetrators) walk away rich at everyone else’s expense. I would challenge Emily to provide any meaningful data she might have to support that OWs opportunity provides net benefit overall, but we know she doesn’t have any.

    9. “So, yes, I may be guilty of being biased too…”

    That’s an understatement. The worst part is not that she’s biased but that she’s too inept to do even a passable job of arguing in favor of her biased viewpoint. There was all that indignation and misdirected ire, but basis for it was nothing but fluff. Emily’s argument pretty much boiled down to “no you’re just wrong”.

  29. Emily says:

    Alright, this is why I don’t usually comment because all it does is get more fire from bitter radicals that believe the worst of everyone.

    I could take facts and push them and pull them any way I want to to make them look a certain way and so can Vogel and Lazyman. Maybe, I’m not right about some things, maybe I haven’t had as much study in business. But, I can honestly say that there is good and bad to everything and bottom line, it’s about each individual’s experience, which each one is different. I know plenty of people that choose to bad mouth the business as well but it was only because they did not take the initiative in their own business. That is why I choose to be positive about the business. I myself am not benefitting from it so there is no “brainwashed” view that I am trying to push on others for my own benefit. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect Vogel and Lazyman for theirs. You guys obviously have a lot of time invested into this business, I bet if you put that much effort into the actual business you’d be pretty well off by now. I am just saying that for all this negative that I have seen on this website alone, I have seen so much much more positive come from this business through family and friends.

    And to Vogel, for calling me long-winded and “too inept to even do a passable job.” At least I claimed to be biased, not the same I could say for you, which like it or not, you just responded, might I say, rather longwindedly and also inept because half of your arguments were about Monavie. I came straight out and said I am not speaking of or for Monvie, only LIFE and also you are completely biased as well. I could point out several quotes that prove that fact. Don’t be hypocritical now. Please don’t let your bitterness and clouded judgement be passed towards me. I was simply presenting facts as was asked for by Lazyman himself that were in opposition to what he had said.

    I’m not going to address every single remark against me again as I have better things to do with my life than talk at a computer screen and honestly I think it will just produce more anger over something I know the two of you will never understand.

    There are statistics and stories and negative remarks about every great business and every great leader, that is just the way life is.

    I encourage and even challenge Lazyman and Vogel to look with new eyes at LIFE Leadership. NOT MONAVIE. I don’t care what image you have of Orrin Woodward but I will tell you that this company’s statistics are much more impressive. In two years it made as much money as it took Walmart to make in 20 years. I’d say they are doing pretty well for just being 3 years old.

    There is a new income disclosure statement, new statistics and new information for a NEW company. Look at the NEW information instead of rehashing old arguments.

    Vogel’s arguments boiled down to Emily’s biased but we know everything see all this information from 5 years ago. Which by the way, EVERY list of leaders IS AN OPINION. Any that you can dredge up are too. None are fact. If you could please run through the entire system of LL from start to finish, tell me all the inter workings, how the system works 100% accurately, I might be inclined to listen to something you said. Bottom line, you aren’t qualified to be giving any kind of business advice. I’m probably not either but at least I know the inter workings of a business before I doom the entire thing. Although Lazyman seems much more informed, he too does not understand that this business utilizes a completely new business model.

    It’s almost impossible for people to understand that this is COMPLETELY NEW and no company has ever been modeled like this. To try to categorize it, define it, apply old statistics, drudge up all these cites that somehow prove it’s wrong one way or another isn’t applicable to LL. It doesn’t fit into any of these categories because it’s business model has literally never been implemented before.

    That is all I have to say about it. Lazyman, I respect the fact that you probably know more when it comes to the business aspect of things and I am also appreciative that you could keep it at least somewhat professional, besides maybe a couple comments but I’ll admit in the previous post I said things that were rude. I just hope that my comment makes you want to recheck some things on this new business instead of just haphazardly assigning them to both old and new. Perhaps look at LL with new eyes and reassess, besides why would you take an older business with different owners and assume that a new business with different founders would create the same thing? That’s like saying a regional manager at Walmart broke off and became Ray Kroc and created McDonald’s, therefore, McDonald’s must be the exact same thing as Walmart. Just a thought.

    NEW business, NEW model, NEW ideas, NEW outcomes for those involved.

    If you have blatant distrust of OW and that is really all this boils down to is you doom the new company because one man is involved, which by the way, you know Orrin doesn’t even own the company? There are no owners. There are founders, which you can become a founder yourself just by working your way up to it, which each year they take another step to perfect the business and they are making it easier and easier to do.

    You two may distrust OW. Maybe you’ve seen enough negative that you can’t see any way he could help people. But you gotta ask yourselves, why did he create this new company? I’m sure you’ll say something like, build his number of “minions” or something crazy like that. Or could it be maybe he saw a way to better a flawed company? He wanted to help more people more easily? He was trying to find a way to perfect a broken system? Maybe that is what life is about, being better. After all, he was originally an engineer, it’s practically his life’s mission to find mistakes and make something better. Maybe that is what he did to a flawed system.

    Have a blessed day!

    • Lazy Man says:

      Emily said, “I could take facts and push them and pull them any way I want to to make them look a certain way and so can Vogel and Lazyman. Maybe, I’m not right about some things, maybe I haven’t had as much study in business. But, I can honestly say that there is good and bad to everything and bottom line, it’s about each individual’s experience, which each one is different.”

      This sounds like something the NFL would say to cover up Ray Rice’s domestic violence. There simply isn’t “good and bad” when domestic violence is involved. The same is true with fraud and pyramid schemes are a form of fraud. MLMers repeat the “good and bad to everything” mantra to hide the fraud involved.

      I understand that you “choose to be positive about the business”, but I choose to be against defrauding and scamming of customers. I’d rather be positive about helping people avoid fraud and scams. I stay away from being negative on my site. Of course if you are pitching a fraudulent business opportunity, I can see how you’d view my protection of consumers as being negative. It’s like a pickpocket viewing a police officer as negative.

      I realize you said that you weren’t speaking about MonaVie, but understand that this article was written at the time Orrin was with MonaVie. The bulk of this article predates everything about LIFE. In fact, much of this article isn’t even about MonaVie, Team, or LIFE, it is about the erroneous logic that Orrin Woodward uses to brainwash people. They think they can’t it be a scam, because they are free to leave. As has been pointed out many times before with Enron and Madoff, they scammed people who were free to leave. Any non-brainwashed person can see that Orrin’s logic is wrong.

      The MonaVie stuff is relevant for the reasons that Vogel mentioned. It doesn’t matter that you do not want to discuss it, it is important to the discussion. Sorry, your request to not discuss it and ignore this dark time of Orrin Woodward’s past is rejected.

      And if you say that I’m baised because I’ve caught Orrin Woodward trying to use erroneous logic to convince people that he isn’t scamming them, then I guess you are right. I’m baised against fraud in all forms. In other unsurprising news, I’m biased against domestic violence as well. The question is why would you NOT be against someone using erroneous logic to scam them?

      Thanks for challenging me to look at LIFE with new eyes. I don’t have infinite hours in my day to review every scam that Orrin Woodward wants to pull. He’s never addressed the logic errors that I’ve pointed out in this article or in this article of Woodward again scamming people with bad and erroneous analogies.

      After all this, Orrin’s schemes are simply not deserving of another look. However, if you want, my friend Amthrax has been covering Orrin on his website for years. He has extensive information pointing to LIFE being a scam. I’m not going to write it all here, because it is all there. Just go visit Amthrax’s website. Yesterday, I linked you to analysis of the LIFE compensation plan.

      As for the LIFE business being completely new, that’s a bunch of horse crap. The compensation plan is so similar that the the distributors on YouTube slip up and call it TEAM (at the 1:15) mark. It is modeled similar to every other MLM scheme I’ve seen. Nothing about this is NEW except for very minor, inconsequencial tweaks. What do you think makes it new? Do you not see the Point Values and recruiting rewards of getting money based on a downline?

      As you say, every list of leaders is a matter of opinion, but again, no educated person would consider Orrin Woodward to be a better leader than Mark Cuban or Bill Belichick. So if you see a list where Orrin is ahead of those two, then you know you are looking an uneducated opinion… similar to one having the opinion that the world is flat. They are welcome to hold that opinion, but it doesn’t make sense in reality and people holding that opinion simply look foolish.

      Orrin has been involved in MLM/pyramids/recruiting schemes for years… from Amway, to MonaVie, to TEAM, to Life. Your Ray Croc/McDonalds/WalMart analogy is flawed. Those businesses are fundamentally different. The MLM/pyramid model that Orrin has been a part is fundamentally the same. It’s like a casino owner selling a casino and starting a new one… and you are trying to convince us that somehow the odds in this casino are in the players favor. Sorry, but casinos don’t work that way and the history shows that Life isn’t particularly new.

      Emily said, “If you have blatant distrust of OW and that is really all this boils down to is you doom the new company because one man is involved, which by the way, you know Orrin doesn’t even own the company? There are founders, which you can become a founder yourself just by working your way up to it, which each year they take another step to perfect the business and they are making it easier and easier to do.”

      I’ve had comments on my site and Amthrax has had them on his site that when someone gets close to the top, there are things in the compensation that allow them to take away your membership. People have said they had their entire business pulled out from under them. Again, you want to go read Amthrax’s website and see the people involved who have made those claims. I honestly don’t have the time for that kind of drama.

      If LIFE wants to be legitimate, they should fire Orrin from his miscommunications alone. Let’s see them get rid of that one man involved because it wants to distance itself from scammers like him. Let me know when LIFE does this. I’ll happily look at it fresh when they clean house, remove the bad eggs and get reputable people in the company.

      Emily said, “But you gotta ask yourselves, why did he create this new company?” Well, Orrin built TEAM because he wanted to sell tools to MonaVie distributors. That’s the pyramid on a pyramid mentioned in Forbes. MonaVie decided it wanted to sell its own tools, so Orrin was left without much of a business. People would buy MonaVie tools from MonaVie before they’d buy them from Orrin. So Orrin had to create a new company if he wanted to make money.

      I want to stress that all the above are my opinions based on the facts that I’ve outlined in the articles I’ve written here, read on Amthrax’s website, and comments I’ve participated in. I have to say this because Orrin has a history of suing people who try to explain why his logic/teaching is/are erroneous.

      Have a blessed day, and remember not to scam others.

  30. Melanie Morgan says:

    “There is a new income disclosure statement, new statistics and new information for a NEW company. Look at the NEW information instead of rehashing old arguments.”

    Where is this “new information”-> 2014? for this “NEW business, NEW model, NEW ideas, NEW outcomes for those involved.”

    When did you get started in Orrin Woodward’s business, Emily? I don’t mean just LIFE either. I mean when you Originally got started? Was it when Orrin was in Amway,(Team of Destiny) or Team in Hiding, then Team Monavie or the Team now called LIFE?

  31. Vogel says:

    Emily said: “Alright, this is why I don’t usually comment because all it does is get more fire from bitter radicals that believe the worst of everyone.”

    So your opening salvo is an unfounded ad hominem attack (i.e., “bitter radicals”)? If you’re going to do that, why did you bother including that insincere line “have a blessed day” at the end of your screed? Do you think it’s OK to insult people as long as you offer an insincere being afterwards? That kind of naked hypocrisy is offensive. You’re here to do battle – just own it without blowing smoke up our asses.

    Emily said: “I could take facts and push them and pull them any way I want to to make them look a certain way and so can Vogel and Lazyman.”

    Translation: I would use “facts” like Vogel and Lazyman do to support their arguments, but there aren’t any that support mine.

    Emily said: “But, I can honestly say that there is good and bad to everything and bottom line, it’s about each individual’s experience, which each one is different.”

    Really? Perhaps you’d like to tell us what’s good about rape and murder and thievery. Some things are just purely bad; and some are just mostly bad (like OW’s scams). Drawing false equivalencies is intellectually dishonest.

    It’s not about each individuals experience; it’s about the sum total of all user experiences. If we were talking about a high school reading program where only one kid out a hundred learned to read, would you point to that outlier and their atypical experience to defend the program? The same principle applies with OWs scams. The failure rates are staggeringly high and it is easy to condemn the enterprise on that basis regardless of the experience of a few outliers.

    Emily said: “Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I respect Vogel and Lazyman for theirs.”

    No you don’t. Why lie about it? You called us “bitter radicals”. That’s the antithesis of respect. I don’t respect your arguments at all; I think they’re idiotic and feeble, and I have no qualms about saying so.

    Emily said: “You guys obviously have a lot of time invested into this business, I bet if you put that much effort into the actual business you’d be pretty well off by now.

    What on earth are you talking about? This is a blog; it’s not my business. I’m already very successful and well off so I don’t need your empty-headed invitation to become an MLM scammer.

    Emily said: “I came straight out and said I am not speaking of or for Monvie, only LIFE…”

    Which is exactly why I called you out for trying to sweep Monavie under the rug. Why would you purposely avoid taking about Monavie? OW negatively impacted a lot of people by coercing them into a pyramid scam predicated on the sale of overpriced favored water. That’s a material fact. To ignore it is deceptive. He was richly rewarded for doing so too – to the tune of $3 million plus.

    Emily said: “I have better things to do with my life than talk at a computer screen…”

    No, you clearly don’t or you wouldn’t be here. Just own it. Stop deluding yourself.

    Emily said: “There are statistics and stories and negative remarks about every great business and every great leader,that is just the way life is.”

    That’s such a ridiculously weak argument. It’s like saying there’s no difference between Bernie Madoff and Bill Gates; Apple and Enron. Furthermore, OW is not a great leader; that’s the key point you’re missing.

    Emily said: “I encourage and even challenge Lazyman and Vogel to look with new eyes at LIFE Leadership. NOT MONAVIE.”

    My eyes work just fine. Do you have any FACTS to put on the table? Why would I purposely ignore OWs past involvement with Monavie – it proves he’s a shameless scammer.

    Emily said: “I don’t care what image you have of Orrin Woodward…”

    Yes you do or you wouldn’t be here defending him, calling him a great leader, and telling me I need to see his business with “new eyes”. Again, just own it and stop deluding yourself.

    Emily said: “In two years it made as much money as it took Walmart to make in 20 years.”

    Hyperbole violation! Do you know this is exactly the same type of BS OW has been saying for years. He was even saying it prior to Monavie. The Monavie peeps were saying that that opportunity was going to be the next Google…the next Microsoft. We all know how that worked out – crash and burn.

    Emily said: “Vogel’s arguments boiled down to Emily’s biased but we know everything see all this information from 5 years ago.”

    That’s not at all what my arguments boied down to, and I didn’t argue that you were biased, because I didn’t need to – you openly admitted it (not that you needed to; it was obvious).

    Emily said: “It’s almost impossible for people to understand that this is COMPLETELY NEW and no company has ever been modeled like this.”

    How many times have we heard that one from a new MLM? Same old BS every time.

    Emily said: “You two may distrust OW.”

    And well we should. Forbes magazine basically called him a pyramid schemer. He got paid $3 million to plug Monavie – a pyramid scheme selling expensive favored water as a miracle cure. He put people on stage as models of success when in fact they were bankrupt with homes in foreclosure – barefaced lies! Why on earth would anyone choose to go into business with someone like that? It would be like hiring a hungry cannibal to be your babysitter.

    Emily said: “But you gotta ask yourselves, why did he create this new company?”

    Same reason he created every other so-called “business opportunity” — because he’s a greedy, conniving, self-serving, serial-offending con artist who has never attempted to run an honest business.

    Emily said: “He wanted to help more people more easily? He was trying to find a way to perfect a broken system? Maybe that is what life is about, being better.”

    He wants to help himself; not other people. He ran that same tired line about fixing a broken system after he got fired and sued by Amway. What did he do next? He took a $3 million upfront payment to become an accomplice in the Monavie scam. So much for fixing things eh?

    Emily said: “Have a blessed day!”

    You too sweetie pie! :)

  32. Emily says:

    I’m only responding to tell you guys, especially Vogel to stop expecting the worst of everyone like what you’re doing to me. You don’t know me personally, you don’t know if I’m being sincere or not by reading some text on a screen. Believe it or not I do respect your guys’ opinions. I think you’re both very intelligent, and very well educated and I think it’s a great thing you guys do, trying to save people from scams and business ventures that may go wrong. The only reason I so staunchly defend this business is because for all that negative I read, all those stories of people losing subscriptions or going in debt, I know so many many many more people who have truly bettered their lives with this business. I was encouraging people to look for themselves, NOT INVEST. But look around, look at as many facts, as many websites and articles and listen to as many stories from people as you can. I think using info from only one source is misleading sometimes. Especially when you guys are opinionated. And I know this is where Vogel says something along the lines of ‘of course we’re opinionated, this business is a piece of crap’ only in fancier words and then goes on to say how my argument is feeble and stupid. But any smart businessman should know not to rely on one person or site, it’s their job to do a little digging themselves. Maybe they will find the same as you guys, maybe they won’t. i think we should encourage people to form their own opinions. So yeah, I should’ve kept my mouth shut but just like you guys I felt passionate about the topic because I’ve seen so many successes. (Vogel you don’t need to tell me ‘yeah you should’ve’) I think we both have good intentions but we are never going to agree. You may see ‘facts’ that others with opinions jotted down. But I’ve seen results and to me experience is better than speculation.. Not trying to be a jerk (honestly) but wouldn’t you want an experienced pilot instead of one who played one in a video game one time? Sorry, guys, I’m sincerely not trying to be a jerk, that just seems logical to me.

    I truly do wish you guys the best, honestly. I DO respect your ideas and thoughts and I think you bring up good points that should be thought over. However, I also sincerely disagree. I don’t think that’s going to change much.

    And with absolutely no sarcasm intended, just as last time,
    Have a blessed day!

    • Lazy Man says:

      Emily,

      When you spend hours writing extremely long comments, the assumption is that you are being sincere. If you now claim that we don’t know whether you were, it speaks a lot towards your character. Quite frankly, only a jerk would spend that kind of time without being sincere. In fact, it calls for a stronger word than jerk, but this is a family blog.

      We can also tell that you unable to evaluate simple logical statements by your defense of Orrin.

      We know that people claim that they’ve truly bettered their lives, but that’s what everyone has to say. They can’t say, “I’m going to recruit you into this terrible business opportunity that ruins lives.” No one would ever join that. Instead distributors are taught to “Fake it until they make it.” And we know that they are faking it, because we can see the income disclosures and see that nearly everyone is losing a lot of money.

      It’s fair to say that people should get information from other sources. That’s why I write about MLM and Orrin. I’m sure that Orrin isn’t advertising that Forbes calls his previous TEAM business a pyramid and that LIFE is essentially the same. In fact, we know that Orrin pitches false definitions such that something can’t be a scam if people are free to leave. We know it is true, because Enron and Madoff scammed people and they were all free to take their money and leave.

      So what’s wrong with calling out a liar when he lies? Why should one evaluate a source that is greatly influenced by the liar?

      As for wanting an experienced pilot, that would be relevant if you were flying a plane. You aren’t. You are trying to determine if something is a good business plan and you essentially asking the biased person who makes money if you join. It’s like asking the used car salesman if he’s selling you a lemon. Would you take his word for it, or would you talk to an unbiased mechanic?

      You should talk to the unbiased mechanic… which is me. I’ve reviewed dozens of MLMs. I have shown that Orrin has a history of selling lemons and the information at Amthrax shows that LIFE is another lemon.

      If you want a more technical reason please read this old article from a couple of years back: MLM Mind Game: Real Life Experience vs. External Perspective

  33. Vogel says:

    Emily said: “I’m only responding to tell you guys, especially Vogel to stop expecting the worst of everyone like what you’re doing to me. You don’t know me personally, you don’t know if I’m being sincere or not by reading some text on a screen.”

    You’re creating a diversion by pretending that you’ve been victimized as a result of our prejudging you and doubting your sincerity, when in fact I couldn’t give a damn who you are or whether or not you’re sincere. The discussion here revolves around verifiable facts and logical deductions about OWs so-called business opportunity. A key consideration in evaluating his fitness as a business associates/leader is his colossally messed up history with his previous two endeavors – i.e., Amway and Monavie (Team). He has been saddled with expensive litigation settlements and called the equivalent of a pyramid scammer by Forbes magazine. Amthrax’s website is filled with victim testimonials and scathing (verifiable) details about OWs and Team’s egregious lies. The income disclosure statements prove time and time again that OWs MLM ventures result in financial losses for the vast majority of participants.

    Your counterargument to the damning details outlined above is simply to claim that you know people whose lives have been positively impacted by Orrin (while ignoring the data proving that these are outliers) – and that’s a losing argument.

    Aside from that, you posts have consisted of babble, diversions, and thinly veiled passive-aggressiveness, like calling us “bitter radicals” and then wishing us a “blessed day”. It’s OK to vent or troll or whatever it is you’re doing here, because Lazyman is a very tolerant host and gives everyone a chance to speak their mind, but rest assured that you have lost the argument — badly.

    Emily said: “Not trying to be a jerk (honestly) but wouldn’t you want an experienced pilot instead of one who played one in a video game one time? Sorry, guys, I’m sincerely not trying to be a jerk, that just seems logical to me.”

    My first reaction is not that you are a jerk. I am more inclined to think that you’re just a troll and one who’s a bit…um…shall we say “simple”. Implicit in your comment is an attempt to denigrate our arguments by comparing us to “video game” players while painting yourself as an “experienced pilot”. Let’s just call that out for what it really is – complete BS!

  34. sandra says:

    This conversation between Emily and Lazy Man and Vogel was rather disturbing in such negativity and did nothing to help anyone.Such bad ,bad feeling from Lazy and Vogel that I wonder about your ages as you sound like children in a verbal battle instead of professionals trying to help people make adult decision about LL. Please get it together and restrain yourselves from common bickering as no one benefits from yours or Emily’s knowledge. We are all here to learn not listen to such childish bantering .

    • Lazy Man says:

      Sandra, if someone is here genuinely to learn, they’ll bring points in the article. Emily did nothing of the kind and was simply trying to derail productive discussion. Vogel brought many important details in his post. If you found him “negative” then you were simply supporting the side of Woodward who was shown to be telling lies in this article.

      It is more disturbing that you’d come here and complain about not being helped with all the information here about Woodward’s previous conduct.

      The problem with the conversation here is a by-product of LIFE’s participants/victims. The people falling for the scam don’t have the critical thinking skills to understand simple logical arguments. These people come here to defend Woodward with logical fallacies.

      Sandra, why don’t get it together and stop acting like you are high and mighty. I don’t see you donating your time to debunking scam artists and trying to help deprogram the brainwashed followers.

  35. themusicman says:

    I want to add my two cents. I’ve been in LIFE since July and will be submitting my letter of cancellation soon. Here is why.

    First, it is a pyramid scheme if you look at the definition of a pyramid scheme on the FTC’s website. When you go to the Tuesday night meetings, and when you attend the seminars, etc., the focus is on recruiting people. They ALWAYS go through the presentation, that we are admonished to “stick to” in order to “get results,” and the presentation’s main focus is not on the “life-changing content” (which there is a lot of great information), but rather on joining the business and making the business larger.

    You don’t make any real money in this business unless you recruit other people. Plain and simple.

    And if you try to do it by selling the products, which you get a straight 25% cut, well, good luck with that. Your “business” website that other people can click on to look at the materials is NOT set up to sell the product well at all. AND, in their policies and procedures, you are not allowed to sell it on social media, eBay or Craigs List, or anywhere else except word of mouth basically. But yet Barnes and Noble’s website has Chris and Orrin’s books for sale…who is making the PV on those? Chris and Orrin.

    I cannot honestly recruit people into the business, and encourage them to become “PBO” by buying $200+ of products each month to get their 200PV, all the while knowing they won’t make money until they recruit others, and I am making money off of their “PBO” status. That is wrong, and is simply sucking others money dry, often people who don’t have much to begin with.

    My sister in law and her husband are acting like lemmings, willing to do anything for the LIFE business, yet they are still not making money even after all they have spent and all the time they have used. Eventually I fear their marriage will fail them because LIFE will still not help them to be successful.

    LIFE leaders talk constantly about your dream, and to make it big, and if money was no object what would you get/do? Well, in order to get that dream, you need to go out and recruit recruit recruit! And if your dream is not big enough (e.g. yacht on the ocean like Orrin), then you obviously need to dream bigger. That sounds exactly like coercion and dishonest tactics!

    I encourage ALL people who consider doing LIFE Leadership to really consider what they are doing and how it is going to affect not only themselves, but those whom they recruit.

    We were told we would make our money back within a month because so many people were being enrolled under us. Sure, we have a 1st leg of around 50 or 60 people now, but when you look on the business page of the website, most of those are not PBO’s, and most of those have not done anything except the original $100 investment (and 75 PV). So they will not be “leaders” and contribute, so you need to keep finding more leaders out there who will contribute (and help you make money off the backs of others as well). That is simply ridiculous.

    I’m not saying the materials are not good in many aspects. However, I am saying, look at the history of the founders, look how they have manipulated votes, filed lawsuits, etc., to try to “maintain their reputation.” Look at the policies and procedures and see how many red flags come up as you read through them. They can take your PV and bonuses from you at any time! While that may not happen most of the time, if you turn on them, it can happen, and has happened in the past.

    This business is not “a new business” as someone claims in the above comments, it is simply redone from previous businesses to mask the pyramid scheme they are running to make them tons of money, and to give most people false hopes in an opportunity to be “job-optional.”

    PLEASE don’t give in to the falsehoods-I see it ruining too many lives already!!!

  36. chad says:

    Lazy man thankyou for the blog. You are right about this”business”. I’m ashamed to say that I was apart of this scheme for a couple of years. I was in during Quixtar, leadership time, and the beginning of the Mona vie partnership. I got out when I started to see the light. Only 1% make good money and even less make the big money. A good business does not have one winning person and 99 others buying over priced stuff. I don’t know how much the juice is “selling” for now but it was nearly $30 a bottle when I was around it. If a person wants the juice for health reasons they would be better served using the money that they would spend on this business and buying fruits and vegetables. You will save money in the long run and you will still have all your friends and family to associate with later. If you are thinking of joining this ask your “upline” that is making $3500 a month or more how many people are in your “business” and how many are breaking even with this. Have them give you proof. If you can live with yourself by having others lose money so you can have your dream then by all means go for it. Personally I have more integrity than that.

  37. iseethelight says:

    Hi. I am so grateful to have stumbled across this blog. I had a great friend who i havent heard from in a number of years who brought over a leader and invited me to an information session last night. I felt hesitant…the whole thing seemed legit but something didnt feel right.
    My wife and i have 3 children, two of whom are under 3.5. I have a good job and we sacrafice so my wife can be a stay at home mom. So you can see how quick money would be attractive.
    Doing research this morning and seeking answers from God through scripture and prayer revealed a lot to me. We are not to peddle the gospel fpr profit…any of it. Which is how my old friend’s friend approached us. It was smart…but didnt stand up to any research.
    Trying to use google to research the negatives about this man and his company is not as easy as just plugging in a few search requirements. I have a friend who owns a company that specializes in manipulating google top 10 searches…so..it would be easy to find positive bias…or create positive bias…:).
    Anyhow thank you guys for the final nail in the coffin. And I honestly mean it when I say have a blessed day!! :)

  38. uvm_manager says:

    I don’t really have a whole lot to say except thank you. I did a google search for orrin woodward and guess what came up on the first two pages…paid links/adds for life leadership. Oh and I was googling it cause a co-worker just bought in and asked me to go to the Tuesday night 20:00 meeting. I listened..first was the white board, but not a pyramid, but a straight line down than kicked over down kicked over ( kind of like stairs) anyway what it reminded me of was Doug Gould and Equinox from the late 80’s early 90’s, they tried to suck me in when I was a teenager. Through out my life I have taken many small businesses that were losing money to making little money to multi-million dollar companies (these were construction companies, legitimate business’s). What I was getting to is that I had several of their leaders approach me and try to get me to spend $100 to hold my place, uh I am not that sucker born every minute. When I told them what I did for a living and that I would have to investigate orrin woodward, life leadership, and any other companies that woodward may have been involved in in the past, they all walked away from me and didn’t say another word. That told me there that it is more than likely BS. Anyway, I am off now off to search the FCC, FTC, and BBB data bases though I don’t think there will be much on the BBB as there are a lot of Life Coaching companies out their and I am sure that may mess up the BBB search.
    Thanks for the info and your 2 cents.

  39. Jason says:

    You say Pyramid Schemes are illegal. Though I don’t see this as a pyramid, because honestly anyone can make more money than me just as much as I could make more money than them, it all depends on the effort. We have an RCMP who’s at a leader level making about 3500+ a month in Life Leadership.

    Now if this was illegal, a scam, etc, why would a cop be involved in our community?

    And let me explain to you why it’s not a pyramid Scheme, and I’m sorry if it was mentioned before.

    When you get in a pyramid, you are put in a spot, your recuiter put you there, So lets say Bob recruits me Bob > Jason, I got out there and lets say I get Sam and Megan bellow me. Bob >Jason >Sam & Megan. In a Pyramid I will always make more money than Sam & Megan, but I will never make more money than Bob. The system in life is different. Lets say Bob recruits me. Bob decides he’s going to take a break and he stops for a while. All the meantime I wanna go crazy and I go and get people left right and centre, I start a new leg, I go left right and centre on that leg. I can easily pass Bob and make more money than Bob. It’s not a system where you go bellow the person who got you in, and the people you get in go bellow you. You are in a straight line and are paid by preformance. If I get more people in my first line and second line than Bob, I get paid more. If I open up a third leg, I might get paid more than the current leader of the first team and then I become the leader of my own team. To give you more of an Idea of this, Jean & Tammy Belenger, got Claude Hamilton involved, and Claude exploded canada with Life Leadership, Jean and Tammy are life Coaches, but Claude Hamilton is the canadian Founder. Jean got him in and he’s now makine a butt load more money, I think Clause makes close to a million every 2 or 3 months. VS Jean makes less. But Jean sponsored him…so can that happen in a Pyramid? NO because You cannot overlap the person who got you in, in a pyramid.

    In a pyramid, you cannot get paid more than your upline, just like your down line will never get paid more than you.

    Life Leadership has been the best thing that has ever happened to me.

    If anyone is coming here cause someone brought you to a meeting or showed you the plan. Don’t listen to this BS, Give this a shot and it’s 100% risk free.

    You don’t even need money to make money. I had nothing in my name when I got involved. Nothing! I had to borrow that 130$ to get started. To pay for Marketing and all that, I took the products and started to sell the products, and paid my subscription with that 25% commission. This is an oppertunity where if you have nothing you can get everything. Take a chance!

    • Lazy Man says:

      Jason said, “You say Pyramid Schemes are illegal. Though I don’t see this as a pyramid, because honestly anyone can make more money than me just as much as I could make more money than them, it all depends on the effort.”

      That’s fine, but only if people can make money buying selling product and not recruiting. When recruiting is involved it becomes a pyramid scheme. When the FTC shut down Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing for being a pyramid scheme any one individual could make more money than the others, but there were clearly people at the top making huge bulk of the money off of the people they’ve recruited, commonly referred to as a downline.

      I’ll refer you to the FTC guidelines which show that outside selling of product is legal and recruiting is a pyramid scheme. (Yes, that’s an oversimplied analysis for purpose of this space).

      Jason said, “Now if this was illegal, a scam, etc, why would a cop be involved in our community?”

      Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing had two former attorneys general on its board of directors. In the 1980s the police were the ones selling illegal cable descramblers in my town. I’m sure no President of the United States was ever involved in a wiretapping controversy. The act of one person doesn’t validate the scheme.

      Jason said, “When you get in a pyramid, you are put in a spot, your recuiter put you there, So lets say Bob recruits me Bob > Jason, I got out there and lets say I get Sam and Megan bellow me. Bob >Jason >Sam & Megan. In a Pyramid I will always make more money than Sam & Megan, but I will never make more money than Bob. The system in life is different…”

      That’s not true of pyramid schemes at all. I refer you to the FTC document above. It does not say that you would never be able to make more than someone in your upline. That’s just something that people in pyramids tell themselves to convince themselves they aren’t in a pyramid.

      Jason said, “To give you more of an Idea of this, Jean & Tammy Belenger, got Claude Hamilton involved, and Claude exploded canada with Life Leadership, Jean and Tammy are life Coaches, but Claude Hamilton is the canadian Founder. Jean got him in and he’s now makine a butt load more money, I think Clause makes close to a million every 2 or 3 months. VS Jean makes less. But Jean sponsored him… so can that happen in a Pyramid? NO because You cannot overlap the person who got you in, in a pyramid.”

      From the FTC guidelines: “Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money.”

      Sounds like Claude Hamilton by being the Canadian founder is making his money based on the number of people he recruited and his sales to them rather than selling to product to people unaffiliate with Life. You have presented convincing proof that Life is indeed a pyramid scheme.

      You just don’t realize it because you’ve been lied to about what a pyramid scheme is.

      Jason said, “If anyone is coming here cause someone brought you to a meeting or showed you the plan. Don’t listen to this BS, Give this a shot and it’s 100% risk free.”

      Sure, why would anyone listen to the FTC, who is the authority on the topic? I wonder what those Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing distributors are doing now, when their time and energy went to waste.

  40. TucsonJoe says:

    Jason-
    Your statements are based upon…what? Hearsay? Team propaganda? If you had taken the time to read the other comments, many from people who have been involved to a greater extent than you with Life/Team/Whatever, and understood what you read, then you’d have a different perspective on this fraud. Unfortunately, schemes such as this rely on “useful idiots” such as you to stay afloat.

  41. Kristina says:

    I cant help but laugh at all these negative comments about someone they haven’t even taken the time to get to know. My husband and i met in life leadership and we absolutely love this business. For people who don’t make money don’t do the work but i guarantee their life has changed for the better in one way or another with being involved with such amazing leaders.
    This is the farthest thing from a pyramid scheme we don’t make any money by signing people up. If you would like to look at pyramid schemes you should look at the cooperate world. I currently work in this world until we are out of our job with life leadership (which will be shortly)
    Nothing about life is brain washing they simply give you the current facts of life, debt, divorce rate, raising children, etc most people have taken a blind eye to it and accepted their current situation as life and pretty much wait to die by doing the same thing day in and day out. when i was first introduced to life i was welcomed and encouraged which is not something many people experience on a daily basis. my eyes were also open to know people who had the results in life such as being financially free and not having to go to a job. these were the things i wanted and who else better to learn from then the people with the results. I’m sorry if your cynical or were in a different company and it didn’t work for you I’m also very sorry for lazyman as you don’t even have the courage to try this business but instead just sit behind your keyboard criticizing other people for their courage to improve their life’s and others. you’re actually the joke.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Kristina, you might want to do a little more research. I’ve taken the time to get to know it.

      You are the one that seems to be confused about pyramid schemes. Corporate America is Not a Pyramid Scheme. Disreputable companies and people like Orrin are spreading information to confuse consumers about the differences of a hierarchical organization versus a pyramid scheme.

      A corporation often is a hierarchical organization that doesn’t depend on recruiting or investments from those participating. Pyramid schemes have both, just like TEAM and Life.

      I can’t help but laugh at you laughing at “negative comments” while saying that life gives you “facts of life, debt, divorce rate, raising children, etc most people have taken a blind eye to it and accepted their current situation as life and pretty much wait to die by doing the same thing day in and day out.”

      Sounds like you should spend some time away from the negativity that LIFE is filling you with. If you were a reader here, you’d have eliminated your debt years ago.

  42. cassie says:

    I would like to ask everyone out there who commented in the previous years about how great LL is, how is it now? Since you have been part of it. I want all of you to google definition of a pyramid scheme is. If your to lazy to do so here is googles definition. “a form of investment in which each paying participant recruits two or more further participants, with returns being given to early participants using money contributed by later ones” That is exactly what LL buisness model teaches. You have to pay 100.00+ dollars to hold your spot then you have to recurit others to do the same and “build teams” plus to attend the monthly meetings its 80 dollars a month. Thats a scam. My friend came to me and my husband with this idea of us joining. I refuse. BUT did he care…. No he is filling my husbands head with lies, and telling him he can make 60,000+ a year and quit his job. We are already finanically in a tight spot. Every penny counts for us. We have no extra money and he doesnt care he keeps pushing my husband to pay out to this and its ruining our marraige. If I knew there were not creeps in this world i would give you my number to personally. in fact here is my email. one i hardly use so you can email me and know this is a real person who is about to loose her husband due to their inability to leave us alone. This guy wants my husband to go against what I agreed on him with and spend money anyways. If they truly cared about anyone and their life they would not try and force people against their families.
    [email protected]

  43. Jay says:

    Just got scammed into going to one of these meetings. Had a friend say that him and some of his friends do leadership consulting. Show up and it’s a bunch of people who look on the verge of being homeless. The speaker cited this Inc list multiple times. Good to know its fake. Couldn’t find it anywhere. Speaker said LL isn’t just about making money but that is all he talked about was how great it was to have lots of money. I told them I read a lot (2 books a week) and they said oh we have lots of great content you can’t get anywhere else. I asked what they said the 5 love languages. I nearly died laughing. So I pay $50 a month for content I can get for free from the library? Every book they talked about was either something you can get at the library or I had never heard of the book or author. Then they started asking if I wanted to be an author because they would make sure it went out to their list of 100,000 people and get on have nyt best seller list right away. The whole experience was hilarious. I went home and my wife asked how it was and I said “I got scammed.”

  44. Mark says:

    Has anyone ever heard of a real estate training called Leader Choice Coaching. Very skeptical. Wondering if it’s a pyramid scheme?

    • Lazy Man says:

      You pretty much want to stay away from anything with the words leader, coaching, internet, master and anything that “has multiple levels that come from recruiting people in a ‘downline’.”

  45. David Wells says:

    You should read E myth and realize that over 80 of all businesses fail within the first 5 yrs and then understand why. This would pertain to most business structures. For the ones that don’t have this high failure rate, do you know why? I have been in business for 21 years and the fact of the matter is there is no guarantee success in any business. The odds are stacked against you for most business models. Most people are not willing to make the sacrifices to get over that threshold to become successful. I would also like to add that just because you are successful in one business does not mean you will automatically become successful in another. I would love to sit down and have a cup of coffee with you Lazy Man someday.

    • Lazy Man says:

      David Wells,

      I’ll quote the math that I used in this previous article:

      “I understand that Vladeck might not have the failure rate handy, but we can look it up. The U.S. Small Business Administration has this handy PDF of information. It seems that “7 of 10 survive the first two years” (30% failure rate over two years), “half at least 5 years”, “a third at least 10 years”, and “a quarter stay in business 15 years or more.”

      If we are to compare this against a business where 90% are failing every year, it is drastic. If we start with a 100,000 people and 90% fail each year, you have 1000 people after two years. That’s a 99% failure in MLM vs. 30% in traditional small businesses. After 5 years, you are left with a single person in MLM instead of the 50,000 that you’d have with a traditional small business.”

      So 50%, not 80%, small businesses fail in the first 5 years. Some 99.99% of MLMs failure over that time-span. It is a big difference between 500,000 of a million succeeding and 10 of a million succeeding.

      You are making the mistake of just presuming that failure is “common” without understanding that vast magnitude of difference that “common” entails.

      And yes, there is no guarantee of success, but that statement is like saying there’s no guarantee of winning the lottery. It is an empty statement, because no one should have those expectation to begin with.

      (I’m not a coffee drinker, but feel free to hang-out with me online here.)

  46. Vogel says:

    It’s worth pointing out that the statistics above refer to business “closures” not “failures”. The two terms are not synonymous. A business may close for various reasons other than failure. For instance, a successful sole proprietor may choose to start a new company, or take full-time employment, or merge with another company. A successful business may close to the death of the proprietor, or due to relocation to another state, or retirement. There are myriad reason why a profitable successful business may close that have nothing to do with failure.

    On the other hand, we know with a high degree of certainty that the overwhelming majority of MLM participants fail to earn significant profit or lose money.

  47. David Wells says:

    “Every year over a million people in this country start a business of some sort. Statistics tell us that by the end of the first year at least 40 percent of them will be out of business. Within five years more than 80% of them- 800,000 -of them will be out of business.” Micheal Gerber
    My point is why is there such a big beef on the internet about the failure rate of MLM when the rate is alarmingly high in the traditional field.
    The biggest difference is pennies on the dollar in at risk capital. People in traditional businesses lose life savings, cars houses in a lot of cases if they fail. Most people quit MLM in the first few months losing only hundreds instead of tens of thousands. I have only been successful in 2 out of 8 companies that I have started. If I would have quit, I never would have found and built the ones I currently had. One took 8 years before it turned a profit but within 3 years out performed my 20 yr old company. If I would have based my success upon the opinions of others because I had made no money, I would have dearly missed out. By the way, neither business is MLM. The point is most businesses do not turn a profit for 2-5 years. Most people want it now and don’t have the knowledge or patience to stick with it.

    • Lazy Man says:

      I’ll take the official SBA.gov (Small Business Association) statistics over Michael Gerber’s uncited numbers.

      My point… if you read my previously cited stats… is that the failure rate in MLM is much, much worse than the not very high failure rate in a traditional field. An annual failure rate of 90% compounds to a huge number.

      And of course this is because “success” in MLM is based on recruiting into a pyramid scheme. It isn’t a business, but financial fraud based on the falsely convincing others to join the pyramid.

      To top it off, that house of cards is itself built on a company that has the same risk of shutting down in 5 years. After all, the two companies mentioned in this article, TEAM and MonaVie, are gone.

      David Wells said,
      “If I would have based my success upon the opinions of others because I had made no money, I would have dearly missed out.”

      That’s another very empty statement. If applied to opinions of investing all your money in Apple you would be rich. If applied to opinions of investing all your money in Enron you’d be broke.

      The point is that you can’t credit or discount all opinions of others, because they are the opinions of others. You can discount the opinion of others when they lie like I shown Orrin in this article.

      It’s not surprising that in 460+ comments here, no one has attempted to defend what Orrin wrote in the article. They only want to talk about Team or Life, him in general, or MLM. It’s like they concede the fraud and just want to move the topic to something else.

  48. david wells says:

    My friend we will just have to agree to disagree.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Fair enough, but I’ve backed up my points with logic and legitimate citations. If it was unconvincing that you couldn’t do the same, nor address any of the points in the article.

  49. david wells says:

    I was not commenting on the article I was commenting o all the negative comments and just giving a person who has been in business for 21 years perspective I speak from experience not from book smarts . I think an ant hill is being created into a mountain here You are missing my point on risk vs return It is pocket change for MLM’S vs traditional business. Unfortunately, most people waste more money on pop and snacks than they would on a MLM . I wish you well in your quest.

  50. Mike says:

    My wife just became involved with Life and took me to a meeting this past weekend. I like some others here see this for what I believe it is (pyramid scheme). The people appear to be those who have no sense of belonging, and this group gives them that. The company as they call themselves sells what I consider to be self help items, so I guess that explains why people who seem to have no sense of belonging join up. All the time I am sure many of us see signs while we are out and about speaking of making $2000 a week working for 20 hours from home. If this kind of stuff were true, everyone would do it right. The thing that scares me the most is the people who were at his seminar follow like they are part of a cult. I pray my wife is one of the success stories here and not one of the failures, but I guess time will tell. She is all in and committed, I just hope at the end she doesn’t need to be committed if you know what I mean!

  51. Bill says:

    It’s obvious that this LAZY man doesn’t like Orrin. All people have choices. You can choose the life you have our choose to change it. To change will require growth and with growth comes pain. Just take weight training for instance. I used to work out 3 hrs 4-5 times a week, and when u do that routinely you don’t notice the pain as much. Last week I went to the gym and for 4 days I couldn’t straighten my arms. PAINFUL! Life can feel like that. It will beat u up. There very little truth out there. The truth is ur best friend, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, in laws, even parents may take advantage of u to benefit themselves, not to mention some business partner, be it MLM, conventional biz. Is a dad would we live in today to b that synical. With that being said get facts and do research and go with ur heart. Not all things r for everyone. Personally I believe what LIFE is doing will go down as one of the greatest movements in history. The old saying will become reality here, people of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right. I have briefly met Orrin once, I haven’t reached my time with him yet, but I will EARN a stay in his new 18000 sq ft house one day soon. I do know this that I know many people from the old biz that have either continued with LIFE, some that stayed with MV, and some that don’t do networking at all. I have to say that all people are different as I’ve seen my PC leader become WAY more approachable and genuine then when we were in Q and MV, and there some that there is no hope for. Influence is not to b confused with coercion. As for those who feel pressured to get involved, I can’t speak for everyone but that’s not how this biz is supposed to b built. Any way my phone about to die LOL! in my time I’ve seen the good the bad n the ugly. If any one cares for discussion I can be reached at [Editor’s note: Email addresses are not published.]

    • Lazy Man says:

      Yep, I don’t like Orrin because he obviously lies to people to get their money. I pointed out the lies in the article.

      Yes, not all things are for everyone. Fraud is only for the dark souls.

      Time has proven them wrong. Forbes said it was wrong in 2008. It is 2015 and it is still shown to be wrong.

      Good luck in attempting to earn a stay in the house built on lies to thousands and thousands of people.

  52. Vogel says:

    Bill said: “All people have choices. You can choose the life you have our choose to change it. To change will require growth and with growth comes pain.”

    Did you read that drivel on a fortune cookie? WTF does that have to do with LIFE and its pyramid scheme nature?

    Bill said: “Just take weight training for instance…”

    Oh don’t you just love it when MLMers try to use analogies? Applying the weight training analogy to Orrin’s shady business, it would be like lifting weights daily for years and ending up weaker and in worse shape than when you started. Unlike weight training, which never fails to yield results, MLMs offer a false promise of income, which in reality only comes to fruition for roughly 1 out of a thousand distributors, and they are essentially pre-selected from the get-go.

    Bill said: “The truth is ur best friend, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, in laws, even parents may take advantage of u to benefit themselves, not to mention some business partner, be it MLM, conventional biz.”

    No, that is not the truth; it is pure BS. What kind of dysfunctional family were you raised in where the people closest to you are all out to take advantage of you? That’s certainly not the case in my family or in any other healthy family. It’s also a very lame defense of Orrin and TEAM. You’re basically saying everyone sucks, even your own family, and Orrin is no worse than them. Epic fail!

    Bill said: “Not all things r for everyone.”

    Really Einstein? Thanks for sharing yet another profound pearl of wisdom. Ironically, it’s certainly true of that reptile Orrin’s MLM scammery – definitely not for everyone; much like car crashes and jumping off a cliff without a parachute.

    Bill said: “Personally I believe what LIFE is doing will go down as one of the greatest movements in history.”

    Congrats! That makes you one of the dumbest people in history.

    Bill said: “I have briefly met Orrin once, I haven’t reached my time with him yet, but I will EARN a stay in his new 18000 sq ft house one day soon.”

    Wow, what an honor. THAT is what you’re working towards — a chance to have an audience with an incorrigible swindler at his house? That’s certainly achievable, unlike earning a profit through LIFE.

  53. Karl Christen says:

    I have no idea why your blog still remains high on any search regarding Orrin Woodward. Frankly you have ooooolllllldddd material that at this point is irrelevant to Life Leadership.

    Second, I’ve been in Life Leadership for more then a year. I’m still waiting for this boogie man to materialize. Where is he? Since I joined Life, I’ve never been pushed to do anything, except maybe the conventions.

    Here is the truth, I work part of says enforcing contracts for an alarm company. The crap Americans will blame on others is ridiculous. No one put a gun to anyones head to join Life. No one is forced to spend anything at all at Life. If you are whining that people don’t get their business built for them because they can’t hack the reality they actually should sell product and share the Life business with others, then just say No!

    We have a country of whiners, who blame their lack of ambition on others. Oh, sure, I’ve watched the chronic meeting attenders try and make it sound like they are working, in reality they are making it a hobby instead of a business.

    What blows me away Lazy Man, why would you even bother spending the hundreds of hours you’ve spent developing your blog. Why not spend those hours making a real difference. Like generating some real money.

    • Lazy Man says:

      I wrote about Orrin’s scams again just last year. Just like this article, it covered the misinformation that he spreads. I don’t know search engines like this article, but it might have something to do with the vast amount of great analysis that I put in. Very few people outside of maybe Amthrax’s awesome website are doing the same quality work.

      I don’t understand why people say, “No one put a gun to their head to join Life.” Of course not, it is ridiculous statement. No one put a gun to people’s heads and told them to invest in Bernie Madoff’s Ponzi scheme either. It is a stupid, stupid attempt to justify defrauding people with lies and misinformation.

      I’m not whining that people don’t get their business built. I’m explaining to people that it isn’t a business. As explained in Fastlane Millionaire, you don’t make basic business decisions in MLM such as product direction and pricing. You are a commissioned salesperson… commissioned by an illegal pyramid scheme of recruiting, not a legal hierarchical organization.

      MLM has never been about effort, failure is mathematical certainty. I’m sorry that you don’t understand the math of why ~99% of people are REQUIRED to fail. It isn’t whining or blaming a lack of ambition on others, it is blaming a flawed structure that has been deemed illegal for dozens of years.

      I love to help people. I’ve had 6 million page views on this blog. That’s helping a lot of people. I make enough money to make me happy. It is certainly better than trying to generate money from an illegal pyramid scheme.

  54. Bill says:

    You guys better hurry up and contact all the govt agencies, not to mention govt’s, churches, schools, community groups, youth groups, banks, corporations, small businesses, and all other groups that are connecting greater success to LIFE products and information. Tell them that there succuss bring customers of LIFE has limitations. Oh wait does it matter the work ethic of those who fail, regardless of LIFE biz or information for their biz or they use the random information found in the LIBRARY. You have to work hard in any biz, the bottom line is most people won’t do the work needed to be successful anyway. The money distribution in this country resembles the % who make it in mlm or networking pretty closely. Wonder why that is. Opportunity is opportunity, many won’t do what it takes regardless. I know what ur gonna say what that got to do with Orrin s illegal biz.EVERYTHING!! As far as coercion, I don’t agree with prime being pesterd into the biz or told broken promises, I believe that’s one the reasons why the failure rate is so high. Some people just recruit n recruit n recruit, n don’t b help that person at all. That’s not how this works. BUT u know that already, there’s gotta b a thread of jealousy n hurt to create this BS blog. Of u think for a second that any of this is going to slow down or stop he leadership train ur retarded. If some the traitors that were on the boat to leave Big A couldn’t bring him down how the b hell u think any of ur negativity will. Oh and Vogel, u must be a knucklehead. Lol, u guys may break some people spirit, but if u think what Orrin is doing is wrong, this isn’t any better.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Thanks Bill, but the government agencies don’t have the funding. You might have heard, but the country has a huge national debt and that requires cutbacks.

      I don’t see any schools, banks, corporations, officially sponsoring LIFE’s business model. It is easy to give out great information. You can take a few well-recognized books such as How to Win Friends and Influence People and The Power of Habit and re-wrap it up. I guarantee the information itself is already out there… I am certainly that LIFE has no new ideas that haven’t been expressed in some form before.

      So the question becomes is the business model, which clearly looks like a pyramid scheme, a good thing. A reputable company simply wouldn’t make it look even close to a pyramid scheme. A reputable person wouldn’t tell the lies and misinformation that Orrin has told here.

      It doesn’t matter about the work ethic of those who fail. The ~99% failure rate is regardless of work ethic. It would happen if people spent 120 a week working as smart and as hard as possible. That’s the nature of MLM compensation plans. It has always been that way in every MLM in existence.

      It would be like blaming a golfer for lack of practice if he isn’t good enough to hit 10 holes-in-one in a row. Instead you need to look at the circumstances that make the failure rate more than 99% across around a 100 million people over the last couple of decades. That’s failure to make ANY profit for almost everyone. Yet, nearly anyone can walk into a McDonalds and make a profit their very first day. The 99% are obviously not too lazy or we’d have an unemployment rate of 99%, not 5.5%.

      It isn’t about the money distribution, it is the nature of the business and whether it comes from illegal endless-chain recruitment. It’s a huge, huge difference, because one is mathematically unsustainable and leads to 99% of people losing money. The other allows people to earn profits their very first day.

      If the people are just recruiting, recruiting, recruiting, and not helping people, Orrin should kick them out. Where is the quality control? If you have a 99% failure rate, you have to fix that RIGHT AWAY.

      I’m not being negative, just trying to help people not get involved in MLM/pyramid schemes and point out that when a self-proclaimed leader is lying and giving misinformation, it’s best to stay away. If the organization wants to fire the fraudsters and remove the pyramid, maybe it is worth a second look. Until then, they are the negative influence and the 99% of people losing money is a clear sign of that.

  55. samantha says:

    Lazy man I’m sorry that you wanted a get rich quick or a something for nothing business. If you would have put half of this energy into doing the business then writing this bogus blog you would most definitely be financially well off. That goes for all of you.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Samantha, sorry that you have such poor reading comprehension. I never look for get rick quick or something for nothing business. I’m simply pointing out that the a person clearly appears to be lying and giving misinformation to hide what seems to be a pyramid scheme.

      I am most definitely financially well off. Again, if you had done your research you’d know that.

      The people attempting to defend Orrin have shown that they aren’t very smart. They don’t even attempt to debate the article. Instead they make false accusations about the author (me).

      It puts the spotlight on how terrible this business is. Surround yourself with people who can’t even make a logical argument and you won’t get far in life.

    • Jeremy says:

      I have enough integrity to know that LIFE Leadership is a scam. I tried it, and they use correct principles, but in a deceiving way to trick people into doing things that are unethical.

      If you go to the FTC website and read the description of the a pyramid scheme, LIFE Leadership fits it perfectly.

      Samantha and others, tell me, can you REALLY make any money without recruiting anyone? Has anyone REALLY made any serious money just on selling the products?

      When Orrin and others tell everyone they earn the money the same as anyone else, and if anyone works hard enough they can have the same type of income, how is that possible? They will always be at the top of the “chain” and make the most. Yes, I know that is similar to big corporations, however like was previously mentioned, I go to work at McDonalds and I can expect to have a paycheck for the hours I put in. Unfortunately for me, I spent around $2500 before I saw the light. The “money” I “earned” during those 6 months was nothing but a “refund” on the product I bought. I never got back more than I put in, and again, it only came from a refund. And I had the “best” people (Todd Seitz, Leader 6 now, Rob Robson, who knows where he is now but is earning 100,000/month on the backs of others who are working hard). And we gave an honest effort to share the “product” (aka try to recruit people), but it just was not an honest way to do business.

      Again, go read the description on the FTC website. I’m saddened that people like you are so blind, simply because you are thrown bones of positive thinking that are really brainwashing you into everything they tell you. You can’t see the forest for the trees.

      Everyone needs those principles in their lives. Everyone does not need those principles to only drive themselves to trick others into spending money so that they can get rich (but never actually do). Everyone needs correct principles so they can be successful in many facets of their life, not just monetarily. I’m a school teacher and foster/adoptive parent, and one good place to start is with parenting and teaching children. If adults had these principles in their lives, they would do better.

      But you can’t do it by tricking people into spending money they don’t need to spend (you can find almost all the information for a lot cheaper elsewhere).

      I finally came to a realization that I can not honestly sell this to my friends and family, let alone strangers. I could NEVER make “real” money, as everyone seems to think is so great, without recruiting people. You can not in all honestly say this is an honest business. The 99% rate shows a lot. It isn’t because people are “lazy,” rather, Orrin and the others are “lazy” because they rely on people like you to do all the work for them.

      I’m confused why people also rationalize so much about “making real money” on this blog, don’t you all realize it is at the expense of others? If other people didn’t have “real” jobs, they could never afford to pay the $100 startup fee and $200 minimum per month to get your PV. All it is is a scam to take other peoples’ money, plain and simple.

      Once again I invite you to honestly (if integrity is a huge part, you will give an honest viewing to this) view the FTC website and read the definition carefully on pyramid schemes. Anyone with an honest heart that has experienced the LIFE Leadership model will agree that what they do is a pyramid scheme. You can NOT get ahead and make “real” money without recruiting people. It is not possible.

  56. Honest Guy says:

    Take a moment to read this, I’ll give you my honest, unbiased, inside view of what happened on my first visitation. You can take from this what you will– but there is a point made at the end. I’ll keep it as short as possible.

    I visited this Life Leadership meeting on Tue 12-MAY-15 at approximately 20:00H EST. in London, Ontario CANADA.

    I knew nothing about the organization as the person who enticed me to check it out was “unable to explain it well, so they will”.

    Fair enough, not everyone is business savvy.

    Payment was received on my guest sign in, a normal procedure since the venue at a hotel needed to be paid for. I’m used to this since I’m in business and attend conferences for work also… but I’m thinking to myself; there’s a decent amount of people here, paid people, paying people. Where is this money going?

    Oh well, at least the water was free. Not a huge deal, moving on.

    I sat down after shaking some hands and meeting some interesting persons. Oil rig workers, social workers, massage therapists, IT industry workers. This sounds like a good networking platform for all walks of professions.

    I sat down when the speaker began to take the front; I got a chance to observe him and his presentation presence. Sharp suit, high twist wool with well tailored features. CK shoes, Polo tie clip… he looked the part of success and confidence; but I like to not judge books by their cover. So I waited to listen, observing all that I could.

    Something hit me right before he began to present though; he stood all alone up front. I don’t mean this literally, because of course every speaker takes the stage alone… but his features were not emulated in the audience. I had not noticed before seeing him up stage. The dress and wear of the average attendee was good from far, but far from good. Here I was believing that if you were making a decent amount of income, your living standard typically reflects that?

    It’s not a good point because it’s not always true, so I won’t focus on it… but the attendees shared something else in common besides wearing oversized cheap suits, and trying to look professional in low hygiene/grooming and worn down dress clothes… they lacked confidence, social grace and professionalism. They conversed quietly amongst themselves during the presentation, and I overheard cues of “my life at work is so much better” “I’m getting a promotion at work because my boss is seeing that I’m working harder” etc. Well, I didn’t want to be too rude, but technically speaking, if you’re already looking like a ragamuffin I can assume that you enjoy a soft and ‘cushy’ life, i.e. sleep in, don’t shave, don’t clean, eat out often, eat crap food, manage time poorly, invest time poorly, work half-effort, sloth etc…. so therefor, improvement is an easy feat.

    But, success is success, good for them.

    I realized 10 minutes into the presentation during the “welcome” talk that all of these attendees dressed the way they dressed because they don’t have a lot of money, a retirement plan, a business model that’s working strongly for them, are unhappy or have other relationship goals or life goals that are lesser than great, and they WANT to take their life to the next level, whatever it may be.

    The first step to success is a dream, so I can admire that. But my observation was this; everyone, including the individual who brought me, is mentally weak and vulnerable.

    So here come the wolves.

    I shook out of it briefly when the speaker mentioned, verbatim, “…welcome, you may have heard of us, people often refer to us as a large cult, but we’re really like a family”.

    Cult? yikes.
    Guess I won’t drink the water just yet.

    At this point I stopped paying attention to my surroundings and started to focus on the speaker, it was a boring lecture about finance and basics to making money on your own. This is all regurgitated information you can find on the internet for free (youtube). You’ll know you’re in the right videos when at the end of the video, the speaker starts referring you to book or website you need to subscribe to for his techniques to success.

    I endured the painfully boring lecture, taking as much fun as I could from this by people watching, observing all of these attendees taking notes and nodding with a sense of confirmation to every word the speaker spoke.

    It was kind of cool to see what he meant by family. Everyone in the audience was gradually becoming closer to one another, they were like friends that had known each other for an immeasurable amount of time. But it wasn’t until about 30 minutes into speaking that I saw him raise this green book, a DVD looking case with a book and CDs, and some other merchandise inside it for “only $220.00”. He was even so kind to explain the “pipe-line” schematic that functions like a pyramid scheme, to reward people for their hard work in recruiting others.

    Some numbers were thrown up in the air to attract people into the possibilities and bam, there you have it.

    The wolf in a sharp gray suit, preying on vulnerable and desperate crowds.

    Everything started to get real creepy from here. Some small talk of happiness, religion, relationship success and marriage success was made to strike an emotional impulse from the potential buyer/sheep during the “closing” part of the pitch, followed by “… honestly, if you want to improve your life, buy this, now, today”.

    Finally, it was break though, and I began to mingle around the room to find out more about this strange place I have discovered.

    There is some really awesome people in the room, but the most fascinating was the speaker, and this apparent “mentor” to my friend who brought me. I say this with a sense of sarcasm, as the only fascinating thing about them was their logic to driving income, and “financial free-dom”.

    They tried to horse me into buying in with LL, reserving a spot for $100.00 and buying these books on my first visitation, before I had even a good understanding of what it was that I was buying, or any kind of friendly dialogue was made.

    That’s my cue to leave.

    Here is my closing point; I gave you an insight to an honest first time visitation because it’s fair to know what they are like currently. It’s important to see the way a clerical thinker approaches the information being delivered at a meeting, and it’s critical to analyze it yourself.

    They were unable to coerce me into signing up and subscribing to anything or buying anything, but not because their pitch was weak or the schematic was obviously unattractive. It was not because I have my own businesses, work a good paying job and have a very positive and happy outlook on my life, but it was my ability to think logically and clearly while distractions are being displayed in front of me.

    I encourage you to take this point from my reply; attend, don’t attend, do what you want but remember to see with your eyes and think with your brain. I saw a lot of desperate people get tricked and a lot of illogical business take place.

    I’ll be going back to get a second chance at a first visitation elsewhere to see if it’s truly this strange everywhere. If it is, I’ll post again and that will conclude that LL is still a terrible place to invest your dollar or time for return.

    Note: I have no bias, I am not a member nor have I known any of these CEOs prior to visiting this business. I have no bitter taste towards LL prior to meeting them, therefor I am not providing a false or misrepresented comment. There is no reward in posting this for me, it is just an honest view.

    Also: LL does seem to help people discover self betterment through some apparent useful books and motivational speaches i.e. relationship counselling style books, however, you can get the same information if you had the self drive to find this help yourself. LL only provides these results for people because the people are seemingly not motivated enough themselves to make those steps alone.

    I’ll update when my next first visit happens again, I hope the second time is just as interesting.

  57. Dan says:

    I’m pretty sure my mother in law has posted in this conversation advocating for “life leadership”. She tried to sell her own daughter into the cultist program so I had to accompany my wife to one of the sleazy sales pitch/meetings, which was held past our kids’ bedtime at a food bank in the ghetto of one of the most dangerous cities in our state. It was absolutely disgusting. The “principal salesman” spent most of his time trying to convince everyone that it’s not a pyramid scheme. He tried to cram christian values into his presentation and even fake cried. So, out of about 40 people, there maybe 6 or 7 “recruits” there that night, and everyone else there had been coached to cheer and act excited about the pyramid scam, it was extremely pathetic. If you took a moment to read the “fine print” on LL’s own earnings summary you’d see that fewer than 1% of members ever earn any profit, and this doesn’t even figure in travel expenses, your time, or anything other than what the pyramid scam charges you to be part of it. I’m thankful that my wife ultimately decided not to do it because the so called “christian values” in the scheme are anything but. Faith is merely another spoke on the wheel of the “8 F’s”, and if you’re not incredibly gullible you’ll clearly see the entire thing is based on deception. Not long after she decided not to sell her soul to LL her mother sent me a very resentful (hate) email in which she detailed how she would make absolute certain that I could not respond to her, added that I hate to see people succeed (even though after at least six months into the scam she was still very much in the RED), called me a coward; All of this in true LL fashion. They’re brainwashed to reject you if you don’t want to join the cult, especially if you based any of your decision on the facts shared by those “keyboard warriors” on the internet who have actually experienced this toxic garbage first hand. Funny how that works, the only place to get any unbiased information about this pyramid scam is on the internet. Fact: life leadership is toxic garbage, and you’re better off without it.

  58. Jen says:

    [Editor’s Note: I was away on vacation when all these comments came in. All comments are moderated so they went to the holding queue until I could get back. Now I see so much to respond to, I will do it in-line]

    The mention of the Top 10 Leadership Guru is laughable. If you look at Orrin’s website, there are at least three random blogs with rankings and in some Orrin ranks Top 30 and in others he is Top 25. The websites aren’t reputable and seem to exist only to publish this list of opinions.

    This is irrelevant. This is no different than a resume where you pump up your successes and play down your failures. It means nothing in terms of credibility or lack thereof. It’s simply personal marketing. Also just because these websites are not reputable to you doesn’t mean that they are trash and mean nothing.

    [Editor’s Response: People do get fired for misrepresenting their achievements on resumes. If you pump yourself up for having “award-winning” scrambled eggs and your mother gave you that award, it is important information. Many of Orrin’s followers have cited the website as proof that he is a great leader. I’m simply pointing out that it is not a credible source and people pointing to it need to improve their critical thinking skills. It’s not that the websites are not reputable to me. They are simply not known to be reputable by the business community in general. It’s not like Forbes, Business Week, or Time are citing these websites as proof Orrin is a great leader.]

    Thus we note two pieces of bovine excrement here: 1. Scams do require force and 2. Coercion does not require force.

    Again, nothing but semantics. An improper use of words or definition of words does not make someone a scam artist or a liar. People use the word pyramid for every direct sales company out there. Are real estate brokers a scam? To be a real estate broker who brings in other real estate people to be part of his team, it is assumed that the more sales that the team members make, the more commission the broker and company are going to make.. The guy on the top is making all off of other peoples efforts.. Is that a Scam, or a pyramid? Of course not. Misuse of words and improper definitions are a common thing.

    [Editor’s Response: Semantics are very important. They mean everything… literally. He’s billing himself as a leader and he’s recruited people into his organization by using improper use of words. It’s been done repeatedly (see Orrin Woodward’s Scam Debunked Again). So you have two choices. Either A) he’s not intelligent to use his words properly in many, repeated, cases or B) he’s trying to play a confidence trick on people he recruits. In either case, you’d want to avoid him and his message.

    When you say direct sales do you mean MLM… they are very different. Real estate brokers are very different, because they don’t require or coerce people to buy houses month after month to generate money for the business. There are other differences as well, but that’s a much longer conversation than we have space for here.]

    I won’t even go into the idiocy behind his comment about income tax being a government scam. Income tax pays for many of the things that make America great. Of course, if he doesn’t want to pay it, he can take himself and his business elsewhere.

    How far have you delved into the history and details as it pertains to this statement? Do you even know what exactly he means and where that comes from? I have and it paints quite a picture of original intention, uses and current practices.
    I also saw a comment of their family member refusing to pay taxes because someone told him that it is stupid. Either that one person was off, or dude was not paying attention. LIFE does NOT encourage people to not pay their taxes. The only advice in that area is to become a business owner to lower you taxable income. Regardless of what kind of business it is, LIFE or otherwise.

    [Editor’s Response: I don’t care about the history of it. That’s not relevant to today. Income tax is clearly not a government scam.]

    Does Orrin Woodward really believe that there is no coercion in MonaVie? Read this actual letter from a MonaVie distributor.

    Another Farce
    Do you expect that because Orrin is involved with Monavie (he doesn’t own it, he is a distributor like everyone else) that he should know about every letter and every comment ever made that pertains to the company? That is foolishness. Some people are “touched’ in every business and every industry. MLM is no different.

    [Editor’s Response: Actually it came out in court documents that MonaVie made a side deal with Orrin to give him a $3 million dollar loan that he didn’t repay as long as he met recruiting goals. Orrin was most certainly NOT a distributor like everyone else. By the way, does this sound like someone who accidentally misused words. Plus he is no longer a distributor of MonaVie to my knowledge. I think the broke up years ago. You might want to keep up.]

    The reason why you’ll never see MonaVie in a store is that no one pays $39 for 25 ounces of juice unless they are coerced/scammed into it.


    This is a false statement. While I do not represent Monavie or have anything to do with it. I know people that have been helped dramatically by the juice that you can’t get anywhere else. One example is a friend who’s little boy was having serious bowel issues. The Dr’s were not making any headway, changing his diet wasn’t helping. It wasn’t until she tried him on the juice that he started seeing improvement. This is not a placebo effect as the kid doesn’t know anything other than he gets juice like every other kid.

    [Editor’s Response: This is the MonaVie illegal medical claims thing all over again. Again, the inventor of the juice said it was nothing more than “expensive flavored water”. And the placebo effect works in dogs, so it clearly can work in children. It is this misinformation of false stories (or at best correlation/causation errors) that leads people down the wrong road.]

    In Networking, some will win, and some will lose, but that simply defines life, not a scam.
    The above quote is also true of pyramid schemes which illegal in many countries including the United States. Do we just say, “Let the Bernie Madoffs take our money, that’s life?” I wonder what would happen if I robbed Orrin Woodward’s home and took valuables. Would he say, “some will win, and some will lose, but that simply defines life?” I’m guessing not.

    The rebuttal to this comment doesn’t even make sense. How do the up and down of regular life have anything to do with robbing someone’s house? Some people are good at marketing, some aren’t. Some people are teachable, some aren’t. Some people follow the instructions, some don’t. Hence why some win and some lose. Just because a statement is true in more than one territory, it does not mean that the 2 are one in the same. “They have dark hair” this is true of myself, but is also true of Hilter. How absurd the comparison would be.. We must be the same because we share a common attribute.. Honestly.

    [Editor’s Response: Pyramid schemes are illegal just like robbing someone’s house is illegal. People don’t fail at MLM because of effort or training, but because it is mathematically built into the system. This isn’t saying that two people share the same attribute. This attribute is true of every MLM I’ve looked at, which is more than 50 now. It’s baked into the compensation plan.

    You are trying to convince yourself that some people will be able to hit 10 straight hole-in-ones in golf if they just practice enough. You are ignoring the circumstances that make any amount of practice or training irrelevant. We know the math, people simply don’t hit 10 straight hole-in-ones, even after being given an extraordinary number of attempts, they WILL almost always fail.]

    Also, I think that anyone trying to help consumers (as Lazy Man and Money’s mission is), should attack businesses that cause 99% of people to lose their money and provide no value in return. –

    Where is this stat coming from? Does this take into consideration the above mentioned facts? Some people are not teachable. Some people don’t listen. Some people refuse to follow instructions. Some people think they know better. Most people that join any network marketing company start the same way. They get over zealous and make tons of industry mistakes. They are excited and want to get going. It sometimes takes a while to rein them in and put them on the proper path, that is when they are teachable. The rest flame out because they don’t know what they are doing and they won’t listen to the people that have the results that they are looking for. This leads to disappointment, quitting before they get results, not knowing that there is a system and timeline to things depending on their effort. So when they quit because they are not a millionaire if 5 min, of course the company is to blame and it must be a scam..
    Perhaps 1% of people do what it takes to become a millionaire. There are a ton of other %’s that make a decent living. There are more %’s that have replaced their jobs. There are more %’s that are making that extra $1000 a month that they needed. There are even more %’s that love the products and the communities, who don’t “do” the business side of things so they don’t make any money and are technically in the hole every month because of their product purchases. All of that adds up to way more than 1%. But I dare say when assuming percentages and calculations. None of these factors enter in. Remove those that sign up and do nothing, those that sign up and end up just using the products, those who sign up but won’t follow the instructions and see how the %’s look when only factoring in the people that join with the intention and drive to build a business. That should give a more accurate reading of business success.

    [Editor’s Response: It comes from this expert analysis as well as this analysis on MonaVie. I’ve also done it for Beachbody and other MLMs that publish Income Disclosure Statements.

    It includes everyone, people not teachable and those who move too fast as well as those few who are successful. If MLM wants to have a better success rate, they can try to teach better or tell people to hold back, but it won’t matter, because the failure rate is mathematical and effort and education doesn’t significantly change it. If it did then every company would not let someone join until they could show they had the necessary skills to be successful. They’d obviously want well-trained people, right?

    You can’t say that people sign up and do too much and others sign up and do nothing. You can’t have it both ways. It’s not a problem with the people or even a specific company, because you can see it in every MLM.]

  59. Jen says:

    [Editor’s Note: I was away on vacation when all these comments came in. All comments are moderated so they went to the holding queue until I could get back. Now I see so much to respond to, I will do it in-line. This comment was exceeded the character count of the publishing system and the final two points had to be truncated. Jen can repost the comment that was left out if she wishes and I will respond to them.]

    Amthrax points out: “Orrin certainly did his share of badmouthing after being terminated by Amway a few years back

    If you do some research in Orrin the person you can find out the difference between Orrin first getting into MLM and the Orrin of LIFE Leadership. As we all do, people grow and learn. He is no exception. What rings true today is not always the way it was. Plus that whole amway/quixar thing was a complete shit show. It would take a saint to not lose their shit on that one.

    [Editor’s Response: It’s true that people can grow and learn, but Orrin hasn’t seem to have done either. He’s still involved in MLM/pyramid schemes. He’s still using bad analogies to recruit people into them (as noted here: Orrin Woodward’s Scam Debunked Again). Amway looks awesome compared to MonaVie… it is actually still around and not essentially out of business. And of course Life appears to be as big a shit-storm than either. So what was learned again?]

    Is it possible that people are just calling a spade a spade? I call many MLMs scams and I don’t participate in any of them. It’s quite possible that people call it a scam, because of the coercion which disrupts the market value of a product as well as the fact that 99% of people lose money. When someone fails to sell 25 ounce bottles of juice for between $37 and $45 when there are other more nutritious products available for $4 for 46 ounces, it is insane to blame it “lack of personal responsibility.” If I were to open up a store and sell Honda Civics for $200,000 a piece failure is the expectation.

    It is also interesting that you have never been in an MLM yet you are an expert on what makes it a scam. And again with the eye catching 99% claim. Clearly people will buy a $40 bottle of juice or they would be out of business. As with anything else, there is a target market. If people are trying to sell in the wrong market, they are going to have a hard time. Is it the company’s fault that they are not approaching the right people? Can you get these exact same products somewhere else? Because in your Honda Civic comparison you are taking a product that is sold in 1000’s of places and upcharge a ridiculous amount as compared to the rest of the sellers. This is likely to not work out. Where if you actually make a proper comparison, you would have said that if you opened a store that sold Honda civics, with proprietary features and you were the only company that sold them and you charged 200k a piece. This is less likely to fail. Because if the features that the other regular Civics don’t have is of value to people and you are the only one selling them, thus there is no price other than 200k, people will pay it. Some people will pay it just to having something that is a little rarer than the others. Some will pay it for the features. Supply and demand.. If there was no demand, there would be no point in the supply. Since a lot of the companies are still in business. I think its ok.

    [Editor’s Response: I’ve studied them for years and years. I’ve also never jumped off a tall a building… it doesn’t take experience to know what would happen. You are right, people won’t buy the $40 bottles of juice without a business opportunity behind it. Even with the business opportunity and the purchase used as an admission to it, the company went out of business. If you put it on the shelf at Wal-Mart with no business opportunity behind it, it would have gone out of business much, much faster. There was no target market for MonaVie except for sick people who were desperate for anything… and people looking for a business opportunity that they thought could make them serious money.

    It is MonaVie’s fault for overpricing the product by 5-10x. They do this, because they purchases are used to qualify for commissions in the scheme. They can price it however they want and people will buy for some time, considering it a cost of doing business. However, they realized how much money they were losing and quit and hence the failure of the company.

    Honda knows they can’t charge $200,000 for a Civic, so they don’t. MonaVie tried to and got away with for awhile because people thought they could sell the juice at a ridiculous price point under the idea of creating a business. It obviously imploded on them and didn’t work out either. The features of MonaVie juice didn’t make it more valuable to people, it was the business opportunity and the fact that they had to buy it to have volume for the business opportunity.

    MLM breaks the laws of supply and demand of a product, but adding in a factor that is in high demand, the promise of financial freedom.]

    Orrin Woodward doesn’t two other interesting things in the above paragraph. He wants people to stick with Network Marketing even though it clearly doesn’t mathematically work. To him, it is a number’s game. He knows that 0.5% will make some kind of money and 99.5% will not. So he wants to keep that 99.5% buying tools and juice as long as possible. Thus he gives a “Network Marketing isn’t easy” and “success requires 10,000 hours.” If you do the math on 10,000 hours it turns out to be working 8 hours a day for 250 days a year (taking some weekends off) for 5 years. Is that the kind of commitment you want to make to something that fails 99.5% of the time? I don’t know about you, but that sounds crazy.

    Again back to your mathematics. MLM is a numbers game, but not in the way you are portraying. In sales and marketing of any product with any company there is a theoretical law of averages. The more people that have exposure to your business or product, the high chance you have at making sales. Think commercials, flyers, radio ads, billboards etc. Where MLM differs with this is that rather than spending tons of money on these forms of advertising, they show people in person. It is more effective and lucrative. The money saved in tradition advertising is foolish and if you show someone and they are interested, they have you right there to ask questions to make sure it’s for them. Mathematically it does work. Your stats are skewed.

    Let’s talk for a minute about traditional business and entrepreurship. What are the success stats on that? How many companies fold after 1 year, 5 years, 10 years? How much money is dished out for startup, and maintenance over those 1,5,10 years? How long does it take them to be in the black rather than in the hole? So yes, working 8 hours a day, 250 days a year (which is likely more because people that own their own business, regardless what kind, generally put in way more than 40 hours a week if it is their sole income.) for 5 years is a normal amount of time and effort to spend trying to build a profitable business. If you are a business expert, you should know these things.

    [Editor’s Response: It’s not my mathematics, it’s just the mathematics of MLM income disclosure statements. There is nothing about me in the math.

    I covered the failure rate in MLM vs. traditional businesses here. I used statistics from SBA.gov and CNBC. Here’s the result: “If we are to compare this against a business where 90% are failing every year, it is drastic. If we start with a 100,000 people and 90% fail each year, you have 1000 people after two years. That’s a 99% failure in MLM vs. 30% in traditional small businesses. After 5 years, you are left with a single person in MLM instead of the 50,000 that you’d have with a traditional small business.”

    CNBC was being generous with the 90% failure rate and it still makes MLM look like a complete shit storm to use your own words. And these aren’t my numbers, but again, SBA.gov and CNBC as you can verify by reading the article I cite.]

    And as for the Malcolm Gladwell and 10,000 hours claim… maybe Orrin Woodward should pay attention to what he reads more. I reviewed Outliers, the book where Malcolm Gladwell makes the statement. The important part of the chapter was that the examples cited (The Beatles, Bill Joy, and Bill Gates) all had a unique opportunity advantage such as being in the right place at the right time. Gladwell points out that being born around 1955 in Silicon Valley put both the aforementioned Bills in place to be the right age to have youthful exuberance at the time that personal computers were picking up steam. He also says that a similar thing happened during the Industrial Revolution. This unique opportunity is necessary in addition to the 10,000 hours of work. With Network Marketing, you have no unique opportunity advantage.

    You say this as if it is a bad thing somehow. MLM is on the rise. The industrial ages is coming to a screeching halt and those that don’t find another way of doing things are getting dragged down into the pits. The companies and the products are getting better and better with each passing year. (MLM’s from back in the beginning were not all above board, but now a days most of the companies are legit) It’s a multi-billion dollar industry and they are not all getting shut down. Governments are approving the business plans and the structures. Every company is different in the way they do and teach things. More people are looking to buy back their time (in the long term) so they can raise their kids, spend time with their families, help people in need. MLM at its current stage is being in the right place at the right time. So time to get in your 10,000 hours.

    [Editor’s Response: It is a bad thing that Orrin Woodward didn’t explain the “10,000 hours” completely using only the part that keeps people paying month after month rather than explaining the people didn’t have the unique opportunity that also came with the 10,000 hours.

    MLM is actually declining in comparison to the growth of the population. The industrial age is has been passed by the information age years ago. Actually most of the companies today are not legit. That’s why Herbalife has pending investigations on it. It’s why Avon is getting out of the DSA. It’s why Tupperware is doing the same. They cite pyramid schemes as their reason. I don’t think it has ever been historically good, but it certainly isn’t good today. The United States does not approve the business plans. A multibillion dollar industry means nothing… Bernie Madoff’s scheme was multibillion as was Enron.

    You couldn’t have it more wrong. MLM tells people they can spend more time with their families, but instead they spend the time working on the MLM hamster wheel, never going anywhere. As Harper’s Magazine points out, it actually destroys families.]

  60. Jen says:

    [Editor’s Note: I was away on vacation when all these comments came in. All comments are moderated so they went to the holding queue until I could get back. Now I see so much to respond to, I will do it in-line]

    If you look into the study of cults, you can see that MonaVie and Network Marketing in general exhibits cult behavior. –

    Since we are clearly super picky of proper uses of words here. Let’s talk about the word cult. Did you read the wiki page that was linked? As per definition it is used to describe just about any community that gets together through a shared belief system that it outside of the norm.

    [Editor’s Response: I have no problem with the definition… except that I’d add the use of mind-control techniques that I also pointed out. Does the cult try to alienate one from their friends and family if they don’t join? That’s a big issue. When they try to turn you away from them, or call others “negative” it is a problem.]

    Of course, using mind control techniques and cult behavior most certainly counts as coercing. Those people who “joined freely” were often not presented the correct information.


    This is based on what? What is the pool of reference? How many disgruntled people that quit before success because they didn’t believe or understand what the real info is? How many successful people that quit and are hateful because of personality issues? How many successful people in the industry? Or is it only stats gathered by people that are pissed off for one reason or another? This entire post is coercion. Trying to coerce people into believing that what you say is truth, while in fact presenting them with inaccurate bias information rather than a proper study or any experience whatsoever in the topic discussed.
    And what mind control techniques? Being nice, positive, getting people to dream again rather than sit and accept the live they have if that is not what they want?

    [Editor’s Response: This is based on common sense. Are you saying that mind-control and cult behavior doesn’t count as coercing? Why would you suggest that? People are almost never presented the information that 99% of people will mathematically fail despite the effort or training they put in. You seem to have not been presented with this correct information, which shows that people aren’t getting it.

    I’ve presented the statistics of many proper studies via links. If you want a list of mind-control techniques, you can find them in this video that has nothing to do with MLM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E .]

    Orrin goes to list a couple of videos of the top successful people to further try to convince people that it is the norm, not the exception. It is essentially showing videos of lottery winners and saying, “See we won the lottery, you can too”


    There is a vast difference between winning something and working for something. There is a right way and a wrong way to do network marketing. If you take the time to learn the right way and actually put it into practice, you will see results. If you think you know better than the people that have already made the money, you won’t pay for the training (you need training for everything you do and most schools I know of are not free), you get uppity about spending money on your business (go find a tradition business that costs under $500 a month to run) . If you treat it like a hobby, you will get hobby results (how much do you normally get paid for your hobbies vs how much people dish out for them?) If you treat it like a business, you will get business results. There is a lot to owning a successful business. It takes people skills, leadership skills, capital, maintenance, investment, dedication, and good ol elbow grease. This is true for a traditional business and it is true for network marketing. People can make good money, but like any business, it is not going to happen overnight.

    And the icing on the cake is that people that make these sorts of websites make them for money. Look at all of the banners and ads on this page. It’s a scam! They write hateful things about popular companies because they know that the industry is growing and that new people exposed to the business are going to google it. This translates into a TON of traffic to these sites which lines their pockets from the ad revenue. ? Everything is a scam if you just focus on conjecture.

    Bottom line, if you have proper training, the belief in your product, understanding that MLM is still business and costs loads less than a tradition business, you will not be profitable right away and any business requires work and investment and are willing to actually follow the guidance of those who have results..MLM will work for you. LIFE will work for you. We have a saying.. Don’t take financial advise from broke people and don’t take marriage advise from divorced people.. So i say Don’t take MLM advise from someone who has never ran an MLM business.

    [Editor’s Response: There is a difference… at least if you don’t have to put in your time and effort for the huge failure rate.

    Once again, you will not see results because mathematically you won’t. And of course since nearly everyone must fail, it makes it easy to tell them that they need to pay for more training. It only exasperates the problem with the fraud.

    Many very popular, everyday brands include ads on a page. The companies I write about are already considered to be pyramid scheme scams according to these FTC Guidelines. There’s a big difference between the FTC saying that something could be a pyramid scheme and websites with advertising that don’t ask a penny from anyone.

    Because I have a million dollar net-worth, maybe you should listen to me that it is a bad business idea to get involved in MLM. That’s from your own saying. Also don’t take drug use advice from a drug dealer… something you should add to your saying… applying it to MLMs.]

    “I understand that Vladeck might not have the failure rate handy, but we can look it up. The U.S. Small Business Administration has this handy PDF of information. It seems that “7 of 10 survive the first two years” (30% failure rate over two years), “half at least 5 years”, “a third at least 10 years”, and “a quarter stay in business 15 years or more.”

    If we are to compare this against a business where 90% are failing every year, it is drastic. If we start with a 100,000 people and 90% fail each year, you have 1000 people after two years. That’s a 99% failure in MLM vs. 30% in traditional small businesses. After 5 years, you are left with a single person in MLM instead of the 50,000 that you’d have with a traditional small business.”

    MLM is a completely different mindset and it’s so cheap to get involved in as compared to traditional businesses. More people get involved in MLM for that reason, but they don’t have any skin in the game. Someone that dishes out 10’s of thousands of dollars to get their business started is more likely to stick it out as long as they can. People who drop a couple hundred bucks on a business that they don’t really care about.. not so much. People can walk away from a small investment without giving it much thought. Traditional business is not as forgiving. The numbers you are using are based on signups and income, not failures. If you sign up and don’t do anything.. it’s not really a business failure. If you sign up and just buy stuff, again.. is not a business failure. These numbers keep getting tossed around like they mean something, but they are not comparable as there is vastly different variables to consider

    [Editor’s Response: Just a couple of comments earlier you asked me about these numbers. Now I give them to you and you cry “Foul!” It wouldn’t matter if you put more skin in MLM, just as many people would fail due to the compensation plan structure. Again it is mathematical, not behavioral. You could put 500 people on an island and give them all MLM and tell them to have all the training and the experience in the world. The failure rate would still be the same.]

    It seems like pocket change, but it really isn’t. It’s typically a couple hundred a month in product, training materials, an annual convention with hotel, airfare, food, etc. There are product samples to buy and gas to meetings. It’s not unusual for it to get to be 4-5K a year. That’s a lot more than pop and snacks. It may sound like pocket change, but the average person has less than $1000 for emergency expenses

    What traditional businesses do you know of who have expenses that are less than 5k a year? It is a business, there are business expenses. There are also right offs at tax time..Those tools you bought, the gas you used, the home office you have, the meetings you paid for, the electricity you used, the phone you used, the care you drove.. and the list goes on. If you are going to have a logical conversation with numbers and stuff, you should include ALL of the numbers, not just the ones that further your bias.

    [Editor’s Response: I can tell you my blogging business is far less than 5K a year. I ran for $20 a year to start and I got very successful. You might also want to read The Lean Start-up an Amazon #1 best seller.

    If you are going to write-off the numbers, you are going to have to show an attempt to be profitable to the IRS. Good luck getting them to view MLM as qualifying with their 99% failure rate. Go see your tax advisor. Also, you don’t want tax write-offs, because it means you lost money and time.]

    The problem is that MLM falsely pretends to be a business when MLMers don’t make typical business decisions. It also fails to follow the rules of supply and demand as explained here. It will happily create thousands of distributors even if not one person wants to buy the product.


    Money is not made on recruiting. If you recruit a ton of people and no one buys the product you are not in business anymore. People have to love and buy your product in order for you to build a successful business. One of the criteria to get paid after being in for 6 months is you have to have customer sales every month, to people that are not part of the business. But when you see how the products have helped people, you want to help them. You want them to see what you see. You want to work with friends. This is no different than building a commission based sales team in any other business. Just on a potentially grander scale depending on what you are willing to put into it.

    [Editor’s Response: As MonaVie found, you can stay in business for years by what appears to be recruiting alone. I had the information from One24 and the company stayed in business a little while on just recruiting. People are buying the product because they have to as part of the qualifying requirements to earn commissions on the scheme. MonaVie, when this article was written did not have the customer sales requirement as far as I know. However, again, 6 months is a ridiculously long time to give someone to make a sale. By that time, people could be in thousands and are likely to fake a sale to a friend just to not lose their thousands.]

  61. Jen says:

    [Editor’s Note: I was away on vacation when all these comments came in. All comments are moderated so they went to the holding queue until I could get back. Now I see so much to respond to, I will do it in-line]

    From the FTC –
    Not all multilevel marketing plans are legitimate. If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan. If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not. It’s a pyramid scheme. Pyramid schemes are illegal, and the vast majority of participants lose money.
    If the money you make is based on your sales to the public, it may be a legitimate multilevel marketing plan
    LIFE has customer sales requirements to ensure that rambunctious distributors can’t not sell the product
    If the money you make is based on the number of people you recruit and your sales to them, it’s not.


    If you recruit only 1 guy and he is a selling deamon and does zero recruiting and buys nothing, you still make money off of his public customer sales as well as your own. So there goes your pyramid argument. If the sales team members want to buy stuff, which they will if they want to learn (and it’s hard to sell a product that you know nothing about) you will also make money off of those sales, unless it is training tool. No upline gets paid for the training tools.

    [Editor’s Response: Well, there aren’t selling deamon’s in MonaVie, because no one buys $40 juice as a norm. That’s why we had the illegal medical claims come out. They could only justify the cost of the product by using testimonials that would qualify it as a medicine. That’s the issue, there aren’t public sales at the price point. It doesn’t make sense for sales to the public because the product can be gotten cheaper on Ebay or by signing up as a distributor yourself (disqualifying you as being a customer sale).

    Orrin Woodward certainly got paid for sales of TEAM training tools.]

    I wrote about Orrin’s scams again just last year. Just like this article, it covered the misinformation that he spreads. I don’t know search engines like this article, but it might have something to do with the vast amount of great analysis that I put in. Very few people outside of maybe Amthrax’s awesome website are doing the same quality work.
    One of the reasons that google likes this article is the mass amount of links to everything under the sun. This is just one of the SEO criteria that the format of this page has to get higher rankings. It has nothing to do with analysis.
    MLM has never been about effort, failure is mathematical certainty. I’m sorry that you don’t understand the math of why ~99% of people are REQUIRED to fail. It isn’t whining or blaming a lack of ambition on others, it is blaming a flawed structure that has been deemed illegal for dozens of years.

    I love to help people. I’ve had 6 million page views on this blog. That’s helping a lot of people. I make enough money to make me happy. It is certainly better than trying to generate money from an illegal pyramid scheme.

    You may be helping some people, the people that wouldn’t have giving it what it takes to succeed. But you are also stealing dreams of others. Scaring them away from something that could literally change their lives for the better in various different aspects. Fearmongering

    [Editor’s Response: I’m not stealing people’s dreams. I give them information to help them fulfill it. I just warn them that they are spinning their wheels in MLM. You should probably spend some time reading some of the other 2000 articles I’ve written, so you can understand how I help feed people’s dreams.]

    I don’t see any schools, banks, corporations, officially sponsoring LIFE’s business model. It is easy to give out great information. You can take a few well-recognized books such as How to Win Friends and Influence People and The Power of Habit and re-wrap it up. I guarantee the information itself is already out there… I am certainly that LIFE has no new ideas that haven’t been expressed in some form before.

    So if I understand correctly, you are basically implying that anyone selling a product that has been previously sold by the originators of that product..it’s bad business? If someone else is selling it.. well shit we better not.. and for god sakes don’t charge for products that can be gotten free else ware O.o That would wipe out most of the world’s business sector.

    [Editor’s Response: You are not understanding me correctly. You are taking my quote out of context, which was a response to someone else. Give it another read before you jump to a false conclusion.]

    So the question becomes is the business model, which clearly looks like a pyramid scheme, a good thing. A reputable company simply wouldn’t make it look even close to a pyramid scheme. A reputable person wouldn’t tell the lies and misinformation that Orrin has told here.

    What are the lies he told about the business, exactly?

    [Editor’s Response: Please read the two articles. I’m noting to rewrite all the articles in the comments.]

    It would be like blaming a golfer for lack of practice if he isn’t good enough to hit 10 holes-in-one in a row. Instead you need to look at the circumstances that make the failure rate more than 99% across around a 100 million people over the last couple of decades

    I love your comparisons that are no near comparable, they crack me up.
    It would not be like blaming a golfer for not being perfect every shot. The comparison would be to take a shitty golfer, teach them how to play golf, how to believe in the themselves that they can improve, they practice and practice and practice and have the work ethic to practice some more. The golfer has improved. Then the golfer when it looks like they hit their plateau, has the mental fortitude and work ethic and teachability to keep practicing and practicing harder. Now a golfer that started out barely able to hit the ball, while not hitting 10 hole-in-ones in a row, still is hitting some hole-in ones, and some other good golf scores that I don’t know because I don’t play golf.
    Now compare that to the same caliber of beginning golfer. This guy won’t listen to his trainer, he practices once a month. Goes to the clubhouse often so that it looks like he is doing something and buys expensive clubs to look the part.
    Fast forward 5 years.. Who is going to be the more successful golfer?

    [Editor’s Response: It doesn’t matter who is better in either scenario, because neither is going be able to overcome the insurmountable circumstances of hitting 10 hole-in-ones in a row… the necessary mark for success in MLM. MLM is a false hustle trap once you understand the math of recruiting people and attempting to sell ridiculously overpriced products.]

    That’s failure to make ANY profit for almost everyone. Yet, nearly anyone can walk into a McDonalds and make a profit their very first day. The 99% are obviously not too lazy or we’d have an unemployment rate of 99%, not 5.5%. –

    Explain to me how someone buying a McDonalds makes profit the very first day?
    They just spend what 500-750k to get the franchise, they spent to get product, they spent to hire employees, they now have gas, electric, bills up the wazoo. How on day 1 is all of that paid for and profitable? It’s not, they are going to take years to recoup and start making profit.

    [Editor’s Response: Their daily income exceeds their daily costs on day one. They aren’t losing money for months as in MLM.]

    If the people are just recruiting, recruiting, recruiting, and not helping people, Orrin should kick them out. Where is the quality control? If you have a 99% failure rate, you have to fix that RIGHT AWAY. –

    First it is not a 99% failure/quit/never start/don’t try/ rate now, it gets better with each passing year. Second the system is being tweaked constantly to fix things that are not working, empower people with stuff that is working and teaching in ways that are easier to follow. And there is a learning curve for new people in all business. They are bound to mess a bunch of stuff up while they are learning the trade.

    [Editor’s Response: The failure rate of MonaVie was never better than 99%. In fact, they stopped putting out income disclosure statements as it imploded. As we covered in a previous comment, LIFE isn’t better. It is far beyond any kind of “tweaking”, it is fundamentally broken.]

    I’m not being negative, just trying to help people not get involved in MLM/pyramid schemes and point out that when a self-proclaimed leader is lying and giving misinformation, it’s best to stay away. If the organization wants to fire the fraudsters and remove the pyramid, maybe it is worth a second look. Until then, they are the negative influence and the 99% of people losing money is a clear sign of that.
    Again, you keep throwing out these numbers without knowing what they mean, without the details.

    Let’s ignore all other facts and go with 99% being the failure rate.. If 1million people sign up into life and 99% quit, that least 10,000 people who have had their lives changed, who spend more time with their families, who get along better with their spouses, who have successful businesses, who are helping other people succeed, helping their community..etc etc How is that a negative influence on these people? And how is it fraudulent?

    [Editor’s Response: Well, it really means that the 10,000 people are breaking even or above. It doesn’t mean that they had their lives changed or are spending more time with their families… or any of the stuff you said. It certainly doesn’t mean that they are helping people succeed, because they helped 990,000 fail. And you are ignoring the 990,000 people who lost money. How much could they have done with that lose time and money? You mentioned leverage before. Why not leverage the power of 990,000 people their money and their time instead of 10,000?]

  62. sinaz says:

    The funniest thing is that for all of the posts that are going on about how no one is addressing the points in the article. When someone does and proves it all to be uneducated bias and mostly irrelevant to Orrin himself… they get deleted :)

    [Editor’s Response: How do you they got deleted? If you don’t fly off the handle and made false assumptions you’d find out that they did not. I responded to them when I got back from my vacation. Comments are held in moderation until I’m around to approve them. This is done for any comment on the entire website.

    And let’s be clear… this article is getting close to 5 years old now. What’s the excuse for waiting years and years to address the points?

    So now that I proved the comments to uneducated bias themselves, where do we go from here? Are you ready to call Jen a scammer?]

  63. Mike T says:

    So I came across this bashing of Life Leadership. I have been with the Company for 6 Months and every aspect of my life has improved. I am bringing in extra money through life leadership and I know personally 5 people that have doubled their income in 6 to 12 months. By the way there are people that came into Life Leadership after me and they make a heck of a lot more money than me, its about the work you put in and how fast you want to run with it. Last time I checked a pyramid was when you can’t get ahead of someone who came before you. Anyway you should really check it out because it is amazing!

    • Lazy Man says:

      Mike T,

      This article was written before LIFE Leadership existed, so you must be lying that this bashes LIFE Leadership.

      You probably want to correct your definition of a pyramid scheme, because it is wrong. A good place to start is the FTC’s document here. You’ll see nothing about “getting ahead” of the person above you.

      • Dan says:

        The Cultist, Life Leadership scam artists just finished up a brainwashing convention in Wisconsin. Expect to see an influx of bullsh!t peddling by the LL zombies here, and on social media outlets. I will be spending my July 4th blowing up and burning some of the LL garbage books/cd’s that my mother-in-law continues to forcibly ram into the lives of unsuspecting victims. FACT: FEWER THAN 1% OF ANYONE WHO PARTICIPATES IN LIFE (BS) LEADERSHIP WILL EVER PROFIT AT ALL. <– this statistic published by LL

  64. Stephanie says:

    It’s easy to sit in the corner and be a critic, isn’t it? The ONLY reason a network marketing business wouldn’t work is if YOU DON’T WORK IT. You can’t just throw your money in and expect it to ‘work’ . LIFE is NOT a get rich quick business. It is about changing who you are so you can succeed! I will never listen to someone who isn’t where I want to be, and shame on you for trying to diminish hope among people. Negativity will never get you to the top dude.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Stephanie,

      It is easy to be a critic of things that are easy to criticize. For example, it is easy to be critical of domestic violence.

      On the other hand it is difficult to criticize things that good. How do you criticize Mother Teresa?

      So by admitting that this was easy to criticize, you’ve admitted that it is closer to domestic violence than Mother Teresa. Thanks for doing my job.

      You seem to be confused into thinking that running a pyramid scheme is a “business.” I’m sorry that you were taught this false information.

      MLM is not a matter of effort, failure is a mathematical certainty. You’ve been told that you didn’t work hard or smart enough. What you weren’t told is that failure and losing money is baked into the compensation plan.

      Where do you want to be? Are you saying you do not want an annual $200,000 of income in retirement like me?

      If you read that article, you’d know that I don’t diminish hope in people. I bring it out. I’m all about optimism, which is why I don’t want hard-working people get scammed by pyramid schemes.

  65. Stephanie says:

    If it were a pyramid, or a scam, I would not be involved. Sharing information is a business. Information on financial fitness, strengthening relationships, family, marriage, leadership. This is the information age. Sounds to me that you are just bitter that you didn’t think of it first. You should do your research as to what a true pyramid is. The government social security system is a pyramid scheme….don’t bet on getting anything out of it…but I bet you’re in it!

    • Lazy Man says:

      When you say you would not be involved, what are you specifically talking about. This article is about Orrin’s article and the deceptive part of it… nothing to be involved in. Why don’t you debate the information in the article? That’s what the comment section is for.

      I’ve been giving information on financial fitness since 2006… you can see my archives on this website. Yes, I thought of it first, so nothing to be bitter about.

      Social Security is not a pyramid scheme… yes, I’ve written about this in several parts before too – Is Social Security a Ponzi Scheme? (Part 1: Ponzi History)

  66. Vogel says:

    “It’s easy to sit in the corner and be a critic, isn’t it?”

    Not to be a credible one it isn’t. It requires many hours of painstaking research, analysis, and writing. What is easy is farting out the kind of banal threadbare comment you just made.

    “The ONLY reason a network marketing business wouldn’t work is if YOU DON’T WORK IT.”

    The facts contradict your claim, given that more than 90% of people in MLMs fail to earn a significant profit. If you are suggesting that they fail to do so because they “don’t work it” (turn off your damn caps lock btw, blowhard), then MLM companies are purposely profiting from their distributors knowing that more than 9 out 10 won’t succeed. That’s blatant exploitation.

    The fact is that failure in MLM has nothing to do with effort. It’s due to the inherent flaws of the crooked business model. It’s like playing craps against loaded dice.

    “Shame on you for trying to diminish hope among people.”

    Shame on you for putting your narrow self-interest ahead of the public interest, scammer.

    “Negativity will never get you to the top dude.”

    I’m positive you’re a dishonest know-nothing scammer. Better? Will I get to the top now that I’m positive? You know who definitely will never get to the top? Peons who push pyramid schemes (e.g., you). Of that, I’m POSITIVE!

  67. Betty says:

    Hey, just wanted to point something out real quick and then I’ll probably be back later to post an official response – Trish named some “well-known” authors (it was over a year ago, sorry) and you said you hadn’t heard of them. Google is your friend! LOL. I know of R.C. Sproul and Josh McDowell and they are indeed extremely well known and respected Christian authors but yes likely one would have to be a dedicated Christian and regular reader to be in the loop. They check out.

    It brings up a massive problem I have (one of dozens) with Life. They don’t even make their own ‘betterment’ materials. It’s stuff you could walk into B&N and buy at any time. And yes, as the person desperately trying to recruit me inadvertently admitted, it’s by and large Life members doing the purchasing. Ahhhhh, I am just so shocked at the brazenness of this MLM. Turning good people into zombies.

    • Lazy Man says:

      Sorry, I’m not in the Christian reader circuit. As I’ve said in the past, much of the stuff is in the library for free. If Life members are doing all the purchasing, it’s probably a pyramid scheme.

  68. Mark Blocher says:

    I read through your posts and the comments on this site. It was an interesting exercise that brought me to a couple of conclusions: 1) You must really hate Woodward to spend this much time “stalking” him and attacking his character, and 2) you attribute “pyramid scheme” to anything other than what you like or are doing yourself. The over-the-top mischaracterization of people’s motivations through inference and innuendo is astonishing for someone who claims to inform. I suppose blogging anecdotal bad experiences could be used to discredit just about every business ever in existence. Suppose we applied some of the same criteria you use to agencies like the IRS. Do you think we could find some disgruntled taxpayers? Correlation does not translate into causation.

    • Lazy Man says:

      That’s a very interesting conclusion Mark Blocher. I’m not sure how you came to it.

      1) I’ve never met Woodward. I don’t stalk him. Someone asked me opinion of the article and I believe it is a pile of misleading information for the reasons I stated in my detailed analysis. I’m not a big fan of fraud.

      2) I only attribute “pyramid schemes” to schemes that involve recruitment to get back your investment. I don’t like building houses and I’m not building houses, but clearly that is not a pyramid scheme. I don’t believe working for the IRS involves recruitment to get back an original investment.

  69. Brandon says:

    I love how the LLbots come storming in here with personal attacks, trying to show how honest and good their scam – err – “opportunity” is. My brother in law got sucked into this garbage, and has spent the last month trying to recruit his family into it, and it’s got all of us questioning our relationship with him now.

    So no, it doesn’t help families to get involved in this junk. Thanks for the great site, Lazyman, and please keep fighting against ignorance.

  70. LUIS says:

    I JUST LIKE TO SAY THAT THIS IS THE BEST THING THAT EVER HAPPEND TO ME AND MY FAMILY,IF YOU APPLY THE PRINCIPLES AND DO THE WORK!!! YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE SUCCES WITH LFE!!! SHOW ME SOMETHING BETTER? AND I WLL JUMP ON IT RIGHT AWAY, IM A MULTIMILLION DOLLAR BUSINES OWNER WITH A DEGREE IN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS AND $525K IN DEBT!!! THAT INCUDES 3 STUDENT LOANS, THANSK TO THE PRINCIPALS OF LIFE LEADERSHIP I’M FINALLY SEEING THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL, PULLING A NICE PASIVE INCOME, THAT I GENERATED IN 12 MOTHS, THE FINANCIAL FITNESS PROGRAM HAS HELP ME TO BUDGET,CONTROL AND INVEST, IN A WAY THAT ACTUALLY I GOT SOME MONEY LEFT EVERY MONTH, AND THE RELATIONSHIP THAT I HAD DEVELOPED WHIT ALL MY FAMILY, FRIENDS AND PEOPLE AROUND ME HAS BEEN INCREDIBLE, DON’T MOCK SOMETHING YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT, DO THE WORK!!! STOP BEEING A LOOSER!!!

    • Dan says:

      In light of the posts made by “ALL CAPS LUIS” and others I have a moral obligation to reply.

      1. More than 18 months ago my mother-in-law nearly destroyed my marriage with this bs. She had a “supportive” husband who said he would support her in anything she does because that’s what she wants to do. (supportive husband is an international pilot and retired LT Colonel who has the money to give his wife a blank check to keep her happy).

      2. Mother-in-law has quit – haven’t seen her since the night she dragged my wife and I to the bs sales pitch.

      3. MORAL OF THE STORY – She did exactly what Orrin Woodward and his scam artists trained her to do; Cast my as a loser who didn’t want to work- at the same time, I actually worked- and got a better job than she has ever had in her entire life. SO – Don’t try to tell the world that people who smell the BS and get out (or get their loved ones out) didn’t or couldn’t succeed in a scheme that’s designed to provide residual income <- income you get for not working.

      Cherry on top? If you're even reading this, you're smart enough to know it's a scam… Unless you've already drank the coolaid.

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