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	<title>Comments on: Guest Post Wednesday: MossySF on International Bonds</title>
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	<description>Saving, Earning, and Investing Money</description>
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		<title>By: MossySF</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-8220</link>
		<dc:creator>MossySF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 08:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-8220</guid>
		<description>My two main desires for international bonds:

1) Currency diversification -- I don&#039;t have a good feeling about the long-term prospects of the U.S. dollar. To be honest, the entire fiscal approach of the people here and the government completely suck. Having a lot of domestic bonds for income doesn&#039;t help much if the interest is worth less and less every payout. So I&#039;d rather have money being paid in dollars and euros and yen and rmb and so on. Combine it together into one big melting pot so I take my income in global dollars.

2) More uncorrelated classes lead to more stable returns. Just because the bond market is already more stable than stocks doesn&#039;t mean I can&#039;t aim for even better. I&#039;m sure sometimes emerging bond markets will perform badly. And sometimes intl developed bond markets will crap out. And sometimes the U.S. bond markets will be unpredictable. But combine it together and I should get an even less volatile bond market than any one region. The exact conditions of any of the markets, I only have a passing interest in as I&#039;m just slowly adding to all regions over the next few years as I continually invest money.

Now, I certainly want much lower expense international options. But I&#039;m not interested in waiting around so paying 1% ER now means instead of jumping directly into my desired 50-35-15 split, I start off slow at 80-15-5 or 90-7-3 where I get a bit of volatility reduction w/o totally killing the yields after expenses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My two main desires for international bonds:</p>
<p>1) Currency diversification &#8212; I don&#8217;t have a good feeling about the long-term prospects of the U.S. dollar. To be honest, the entire fiscal approach of the people here and the government completely suck. Having a lot of domestic bonds for income doesn&#8217;t help much if the interest is worth less and less every payout. So I&#8217;d rather have money being paid in dollars and euros and yen and rmb and so on. Combine it together into one big melting pot so I take my income in global dollars.</p>
<p>2) More uncorrelated classes lead to more stable returns. Just because the bond market is already more stable than stocks doesn&#8217;t mean I can&#8217;t aim for even better. I&#8217;m sure sometimes emerging bond markets will perform badly. And sometimes intl developed bond markets will crap out. And sometimes the U.S. bond markets will be unpredictable. But combine it together and I should get an even less volatile bond market than any one region. The exact conditions of any of the markets, I only have a passing interest in as I&#8217;m just slowly adding to all regions over the next few years as I continually invest money.</p>
<p>Now, I certainly want much lower expense international options. But I&#8217;m not interested in waiting around so paying 1% ER now means instead of jumping directly into my desired 50-35-15 split, I start off slow at 80-15-5 or 90-7-3 where I get a bit of volatility reduction w/o totally killing the yields after expenses.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-8178</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 17:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-8178</guid>
		<description>Hi all.  Interesting subject.  I wanted to make a few points.  Bonds are designed to give your portfolio stability, income and lowered risk in the event of a stock market rout, and letting you take advantage of rebalancing by selling appreciated assets and buying lagging ones, which often results in a few extra basis points of return.

Does anyone think that high yield emerging market (EMG) bonds give stability or lowered risk?  The yield spread between US Treasury securities and EMG bonds is at its lowest in years.  Does anyone believe that the trend will continue to the point that EMG debt has a lower yield than Treasuries?  Right now, the risk premium on EMG debt is at its lowest in years.  Is the risk lower?  

Market-timers may be attracted by strong recent returns in EMG debt issues, but those returns have been enjoyed already.  Let&#039;s not forget that it was the tiny risk premiums on EMG debt over Treasuries that lured Long Term Capital Management, causing it to explode in 1998 when yields moved the wrong direction.  

A yield of 3.36% with an ER of 1%?  So fully 1/3 of the yield will be eaten by expenses?  Bonds have posted capital gains due to declining interest rates.  This cannot continue forever.

Bonds are for stability.  If you need exposure to foreign currencies, do it with equities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all.  Interesting subject.  I wanted to make a few points.  Bonds are designed to give your portfolio stability, income and lowered risk in the event of a stock market rout, and letting you take advantage of rebalancing by selling appreciated assets and buying lagging ones, which often results in a few extra basis points of return.</p>
<p>Does anyone think that high yield emerging market (EMG) bonds give stability or lowered risk?  The yield spread between US Treasury securities and EMG bonds is at its lowest in years.  Does anyone believe that the trend will continue to the point that EMG debt has a lower yield than Treasuries?  Right now, the risk premium on EMG debt is at its lowest in years.  Is the risk lower?  </p>
<p>Market-timers may be attracted by strong recent returns in EMG debt issues, but those returns have been enjoyed already.  Let&#8217;s not forget that it was the tiny risk premiums on EMG debt over Treasuries that lured Long Term Capital Management, causing it to explode in 1998 when yields moved the wrong direction.  </p>
<p>A yield of 3.36% with an ER of 1%?  So fully 1/3 of the yield will be eaten by expenses?  Bonds have posted capital gains due to declining interest rates.  This cannot continue forever.</p>
<p>Bonds are for stability.  If you need exposure to foreign currencies, do it with equities.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2007-04-16</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-8173</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2007-04-16</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 16:25:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-8173</guid>
		<description>[...] Guest Post Wednesday: MossySF on International Bonds (tags: international bonds) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Guest Post Wednesday: MossySF on International Bonds (tags: international bonds) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Posts I Enjoyed Last Week &#124; The Sun&#8217;s Financial Diary &#124; A Personal Finance Blog on Saving and Investing</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-8076</link>
		<dc:creator>Posts I Enjoyed Last Week &#124; The Sun&#8217;s Financial Diary &#124; A Personal Finance Blog on Saving and Investing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2007 13:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-8076</guid>
		<description>[...] Man and Money has a guest post on investing in international bonds. If you are considering adding about foreign bonds, developed or emerging markets, to your [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Man and Money has a guest post on investing in international bonds. If you are considering adding about foreign bonds, developed or emerging markets, to your [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MossySF</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-7790</link>
		<dc:creator>MossySF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-7790</guid>
		<description>1% is certainly higher than I&#039;d like to pay. Hell, 0.10% is higher than I&#039;d like to pay -- gimme 0% expense ratio! But some asset classes just aren&#039;t available in low-expense options for the average investor. (GMIBX charges .39% -- you just need $10M to open an account with them.)

I&#039;m not sure who you&#039;re responding to with the low volatility question. I wrote about adding bonds to decrease the volatility of an all equities portfolio. And certainly any specific country/region bond might be more volatile than another region, combining multiple regions together could decrease volatility if those regions&#039; bond investments aren&#039;t completely correlated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1% is certainly higher than I&#8217;d like to pay. Hell, 0.10% is higher than I&#8217;d like to pay &#8212; gimme 0% expense ratio! But some asset classes just aren&#8217;t available in low-expense options for the average investor. (GMIBX charges .39% &#8212; you just need $10M to open an account with them.)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure who you&#8217;re responding to with the low volatility question. I wrote about adding bonds to decrease the volatility of an all equities portfolio. And certainly any specific country/region bond might be more volatile than another region, combining multiple regions together could decrease volatility if those regions&#8217; bond investments aren&#8217;t completely correlated.</p>
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		<title>By: Sun</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-7711</link>
		<dc:creator>Sun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Apr 2007 14:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-7711</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of diversification even in the bond area, but is paying 1 % ER on bond investment a little high? I am not so sure since I haven&#039;t really looked for any. Also investing in foreign bonds doesn&#039;t necessarily mean &quot;low volatility.&quot; In fact, many of the emerging market bonds are quite volatile. Of course, you will be rewarded by taking a greater risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of diversification even in the bond area, but is paying 1 % ER on bond investment a little high? I am not so sure since I haven&#8217;t really looked for any. Also investing in foreign bonds doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean &#8220;low volatility.&#8221; In fact, many of the emerging market bonds are quite volatile. Of course, you will be rewarded by taking a greater risk.</p>
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		<title>By: MossySF</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-7531</link>
		<dc:creator>MossySF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 06:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-7531</guid>
		<description>pfodyssey, I re-read my post and I forgot I was looking for International INDEX Bond Funds when I did the T.Rowe Price nada mention. So that&#039;s still correct. However, those two funds would have been listed in actively managed list had I found them. I probably still wouldn&#039;t have picked the developed market fund at 3.35% yield -- not only the rate is low but it&#039;s a a high risk of losing principal since the logical direction for low rates is to go up. The T.Rowe Price Emerging Market fund is competitive although the Western Asset closed-end funds look to be slightly better in that category due to being able to buy at a discount.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pfodyssey, I re-read my post and I forgot I was looking for International INDEX Bond Funds when I did the T.Rowe Price nada mention. So that&#8217;s still correct. However, those two funds would have been listed in actively managed list had I found them. I probably still wouldn&#8217;t have picked the developed market fund at 3.35% yield &#8212; not only the rate is low but it&#8217;s a a high risk of losing principal since the logical direction for low rates is to go up. The T.Rowe Price Emerging Market fund is competitive although the Western Asset closed-end funds look to be slightly better in that category due to being able to buy at a discount.</p>
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		<title>By: MossySF</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-7517</link>
		<dc:creator>MossySF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Apr 2007 01:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-7517</guid>
		<description>Thanks pfodyssey for the note. Not sure how I missed the T.Rowe Price search but now I see 2 options available for the individual investor:

RPIBX - International Bonds
PREMX - Emerging Market Bonds

I&#039;m surprised on though how low the yield (3.36%) is for RPIBX. That probably means they&#039;re overweighted in Japan where rates are way lower than the U.S. and Europe.

Dong, the wisdom being pushed a decade ago was index funds are great for large cap but an active manager can find the bargains in midcap and smallcap. And now when we look at performance in retrospect, small cap indexes have outperform active small cap managers by even a greater margin than in the large cap sector. I suspect it&#039;s the same for international -- the value of extra knowledge is probably beat every time by expenses   turnover   market timing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks pfodyssey for the note. Not sure how I missed the T.Rowe Price search but now I see 2 options available for the individual investor:</p>
<p>RPIBX &#8211; International Bonds<br />
PREMX &#8211; Emerging Market Bonds</p>
<p>I&#8217;m surprised on though how low the yield (3.36%) is for RPIBX. That probably means they&#8217;re overweighted in Japan where rates are way lower than the U.S. and Europe.</p>
<p>Dong, the wisdom being pushed a decade ago was index funds are great for large cap but an active manager can find the bargains in midcap and smallcap. And now when we look at performance in retrospect, small cap indexes have outperform active small cap managers by even a greater margin than in the large cap sector. I suspect it&#8217;s the same for international &#8212; the value of extra knowledge is probably beat every time by expenses   turnover   market timing.</p>
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		<title>By: pfodyssey</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-7507</link>
		<dc:creator>pfodyssey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2007 20:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-7507</guid>
		<description>I think this topic is a good one and agree that it is probably an area that is not thought about very much.  Although expenses are an important component of the overall picture, finding a fund with a proven track record is my primary interest. 

I also quickly noticed that T Rowe Price was mentioned as not having any international bond funds. This is absolutely not the case.  I know because I have some of my portfolio invested in them.  The fund symbol is PREMX (emerging markets bond).

PREMX Fund Objective:
The investment seeks to provide high income and capital appreciation. The fund normally invests at least 80% of assets in government or corporate debt securities of emerging markets issuers. The holdings may include the lowest-rated bonds, including those in default. It is nondiversified.

The expense ratio is 1.03% 

Calendar Year Total Returns:
1997  16.83%    
1998  -23.09%    
1999  22.97%    
2000  15.20%    
2001  9.35%    
2002  9.52%    
2003  26.05%    
2004  14.83%    
2005  17.26%    
2006  11.43% 

Although I understand where Dong is coming from in terms of his comment about bonds, I would ask that he reconsider as some of them can still have very strong returns (see above) and also provide some &quot;zig&quot; when the market &quot;zags&quot; to reduce your volatility / equity exposure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this topic is a good one and agree that it is probably an area that is not thought about very much.  Although expenses are an important component of the overall picture, finding a fund with a proven track record is my primary interest. </p>
<p>I also quickly noticed that T Rowe Price was mentioned as not having any international bond funds. This is absolutely not the case.  I know because I have some of my portfolio invested in them.  The fund symbol is PREMX (emerging markets bond).</p>
<p>PREMX Fund Objective:<br />
The investment seeks to provide high income and capital appreciation. The fund normally invests at least 80% of assets in government or corporate debt securities of emerging markets issuers. The holdings may include the lowest-rated bonds, including those in default. It is nondiversified.</p>
<p>The expense ratio is 1.03% </p>
<p>Calendar Year Total Returns:<br />
1997  16.83%<br />
1998  -23.09%<br />
1999  22.97%<br />
2000  15.20%<br />
2001  9.35%<br />
2002  9.52%<br />
2003  26.05%<br />
2004  14.83%<br />
2005  17.26%<br />
2006  11.43% </p>
<p>Although I understand where Dong is coming from in terms of his comment about bonds, I would ask that he reconsider as some of them can still have very strong returns (see above) and also provide some &#8220;zig&#8221; when the market &#8220;zags&#8221; to reduce your volatility / equity exposure.</p>
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		<title>By: Dong</title>
		<link>http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-mossysf-on-international-bonds/comment-page-1/#comment-7493</link>
		<dc:creator>Dong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2007 14:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.lazymanandmoney.com/guest-post-wednesday-yu-on-international-bonds/#comment-7493</guid>
		<description>When it comes to international equity funds, I much more willing to pay a little extra for a actively managed fund just because the foreign markets tend be so much more opaque, and the the traditional indexes less than representative.  That goes doubly with bond funds I imagine.  I&#039;m with LazyMan given my age and risk tolerance, I haven&#039;t really looked at bonds other than some tax exempt muni funds as a small portion of my portfolio.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it comes to international equity funds, I much more willing to pay a little extra for a actively managed fund just because the foreign markets tend be so much more opaque, and the the traditional indexes less than representative.  That goes doubly with bond funds I imagine.  I&#8217;m with LazyMan given my age and risk tolerance, I haven&#8217;t really looked at bonds other than some tax exempt muni funds as a small portion of my portfolio.</p>
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